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Induction thoughts

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Flusher

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« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2017, 05:06:53 PM »
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aquaholic72

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« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2017, 05:15:24 PM »
Found this lil gem on promeths website

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« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2017, 05:17:48 PM »
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2031137
That's bitchen Joe!!  Way above my pay grade tho!!!  😅😅😅👍👍👍

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« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2017, 05:45:42 PM »
Just out of curiosity, what blower are you running and how fast are you spinning it?

A small pulley and a chiller will make all your dreams come true, just saying lol
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« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2017, 05:56:53 PM »
It's an old b&m 250.. Makes about 10 pounds of boost right before it bangs the rev limiter..

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« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2017, 06:12:56 PM »
That's bitchen Joe!!  Way above my pay grade tho!!!  😅😅😅👍👍👍

your friendly local v-drive owner

Did you scroll down?

I haven't been really fond of the available chillers.  Everyone I have talked to about them say, "No serious Roots application uses one." OR "They aren't worth the weight penalty."  Every legit boosted car, on gasoline, is intercooled.  I have been running some calculations on my engine.  If anything, it's obvious that intercooling is essential.

I do believe there is a better way to approach an intercooled Roots application without adding another hundred pounds.  After reading that thread, I have a renewed vigor in intercooling my Roots.

I have been watching the centrifugal and turbo guys and I really like how they are integrating the heat exchanger into the manifold.   I was very suprised with what has been accomplished with fabricated copper tubing.
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« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2017, 12:47:29 AM »
Ya I scrolled down..  That was really bitchin what he built..  140 feet of copper tubing!!  Holy chit!!  ,, still nobody wants to touch on the E85 deal tho.. 

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« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2017, 12:50:43 AM »
I'm kinda liking J2's methanol injection suggestion as well tho..  Probably cheaper to buy that dual plate setup from prometh(funny ass name for a legit company ) then converting the carbs to e85..

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« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2017, 12:55:17 AM »
Just out of curiosity, what blower are you running and how fast are you spinning it?

A small pulley and a chiller will make all your dreams come true, just saying lol


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« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2017, 12:20:39 PM »
Ultimately, I decided that E85 isn't for me at this point.  I have seen equal numbers of tuners struggling with E85 as there are successful.  I hear nightmares about about consistency ( http://injectordynamics.com/articles/e85/), but the final nail was availability.  To my knowledge, the only place to get it near us is by J&M speed center.

I did have wet dreams about setting up a second injection hat and pump specifically for E85.  That only makes two halfast attempts.  You got pick and go all out.   With that being said, cam, heads, and compression need to be application specific.  I think your heads would lend themselves well to E85 on your cubic inch.  From what I understand, compression for a blown alcohol program should be 11:1 minimum.

Here another thought that I keep kicking around.  I believe it was Unchained who had a thread on PB where he built his own still.  It's not very expensive and there are many plans online for just such an endeavor.  If I recall correctly, downloading the plans he used was about $60.  Since I don't know anything about making alcohol, I would pay that because it is a proven design.  His yield was actually pretty impressive.

You never know, making your own ethanol might have some additional perks.  I mentioned this to a friend who comes from a family of moonshiners; he said, "Wow, we skim off and discard the ethanol to keep the drinkable alcohol.  You are going to do just the opposite."
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« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2017, 03:59:43 PM »
I have also been considering methanol injection on mine.  From what I understand, the most beneficial gains are made when the methanol injection is actually producing the appropriate AFR, while reducing the amount of fuel through the carburetors.

On a stripped blower, at least 70% of the fuel needs to pass through the blower for lubricating the strips.  Unless someone machined your rotors for strips, your blower should not have that issue because there is actually clearance between the rotors and the case.

On my engine, I think I am near the limit of my 6-71.  I don't think I have enough engine to substitute methanol as enrichment AND reduce gasoline passing through the blower while still maintaining sufficient lubrication for the strips.  This is assuming that the methanol is injected under the blower.

If the alcohol passes through the blower, it will chill the rotors and actually cause them to contract.  This will open the clearances and and increase leakage, reducing blower efficiency.  A lubricating additive would also be required for lubricating the strips (not a problem for your blower).

Another minor issue is that methanol is caustic and badly corrodes aluminum.  Normally, everything that comes in contact with the methanol would need to be hard anodized and/or coated to prevent corrosion.  Subsequently, the whole methanol system will need to be flushed at the end of every day.

You are looking at the under-carb plate system.  I am not convinced that that is the best location for the injectors, mainly because I don't want to subject my blower to corrosion like that.   Also Roots blowers don't have an internal compression ratio like a Whipple screw type blower.  I think the best location for injectors would be under the blower.  In your application, I would put them directly pointing at the port opening, as high in the manifold as possible.  This would provide sufficient time for the "cooling effect" to take place and bypass potential issues with the blower.

If simply using water/methanol injection for cooling purposes only, you are leaving performance on table.

With all that being said, I keep coming back to the air-to-water intercooler.  My decision, after weighing all the above, it boils down to; I don't want to have a secondary fuel that is required simply to drive to the cove and back.  Almost the same as why I didn't want to run N2O, I hate filling bottles.
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« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2017, 04:05:37 PM »
Just thinking, how much adjustment do you have in your belt?  What is the cost/availability of a longer belt?

Fortunately, you know a badass machinist.

Cheers,

Joe
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« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2017, 04:11:00 PM »
Long belts are available for it,  not to expensive.  Also my blower has Teflon stripped rotors.

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« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2017, 04:41:58 PM »

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Aaaahhhhhhh puddin,  your engine is freaking cute.

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« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2017, 05:14:53 PM »
Also my blower has Teflon stripped rotors.

your friendly local v-drive owner

Everything that applies to fuel lubricating the strips is then relative to your blower.
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« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2017, 12:40:21 AM »
Aaaahhhhhhh puddin,  your engine is freaking cute.

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Awwww,  thanks pumpkin,  really means nothing coming from you!!  Lmfao

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« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2017, 01:03:24 AM »
Everything that applies to fuel lubricating the strips is then relative to your blower.
So again,  brought on my interest in the E85 deal..  They sell the additives to lubricate the top end for the fuel, I have drag racer buddies that have had good success with it even running nitrous with it,  it's all in having the correct setup so it doesn't lean out.... the chillers are available for my blower still,  I'm staring at one in my garage right now that's for matches909's boat,  but they are 1500 to buy and my plenum will not take it without probably at least a 2" thick custom adapter plate to bolt a chiller down.. Hence my interest in E85. We have it available now off the 215 and orange show rd.  The day they got the pumps running it was 85 cents a gallon!!  Lol

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« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2017, 01:29:19 AM »
So again,  brought on my interest in the E85 deal..  They sell the additives to lubricate the top end for the fuel, I have drag racer buddies that have had good success with it even running nitrous with it,  it's all in having the correct setup so it doesn't lean out....

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« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2017, 01:31:22 AM »
The chillers are available for my blower still,  I'm staring at one in my garage right now that's for matches909's boat,  but they are 1500 to buy and my plenum will not take it without probably at least a 2" thick custom adapter plate to bolt a chiller down...

Build the chiller into the spacer
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« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2017, 01:33:36 AM »
We have it available now off the 215 and orange show rd.  The day they got the pumps running it was 85 cents a gallon!!  Lol

Wow!

Hmmmm...
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« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2017, 01:37:05 AM »
No balls, no glory!
Lmfao!!!  Thanks brother.  I might just put the 600's on it and leave it alone... Maybe one day I'll run across a cheap chiller and can pay this baddass machinest I know to build an adapter plate for it!!!  But who knows.  We'll see how froggy I get...  I really need to focus on the boat having manners before I worry about the intake air temperature,,  won't mean shit if I crash it..  😅😅

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« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2017, 01:41:26 AM »
Wow!

Hmmmm...
As your interest peeked!!!  Lol

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« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2017, 04:51:21 AM »
No balls, no glory!
My money says he is drinking. Normally we get a 5000 word response, but now we get these 4 beautiful words. Lol

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« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2017, 05:24:44 AM »
He couldn't have said it better..  Flushers awesome and iv had the pleasure to spend alil time with him,  smart motherfucker!!!  Maybe if he E85's he can lead this pack with the knowledge, cuz clearly he was the only one with an opinion outside of me thinking about throwing caution to wind and trying it out... We'll see how it goes down.. But thanks Joe,  I always appreciate your feedback..  Means a lot brother...

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« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2017, 07:28:42 AM »
I have also been considering methanol injection on mine.  From what I understand, the most beneficial gains are made when the methanol injection is actually producing the appropriate AFR, while reducing the amount of fuel through the carburetors.

On a stripped blower, at least 70% of the fuel needs to pass through the blower for lubricating the strips.  Unless someone machined your rotors for strips, your blower should not have that issue because there is actually clearance between the rotors and the case.

On my engine, I think I am near the limit of my 6-71.  I don't think I have enough engine to substitute methanol as enrichment AND reduce gasoline passing through the blower while still maintaining sufficient lubrication for the strips.  This is assuming that the methanol is injected under the blower.

If the alcohol passes through the blower, it will chill the rotors and actually cause them to contract.  This will open the clearances and and increase leakage, reducing blower efficiency.  A lubricating additive would also be required for lubricating the strips (not a problem for your blower).

Another minor issue is that methanol is caustic and badly corrodes aluminum.  Normally, everything that comes in contact with the methanol would need to be hard anodized and/or coated to prevent corrosion.  Subsequently, the whole methanol system will need to be flushed at the end of every day.

You are looking at the under-carb plate system.  I am not convinced that that is the best location for the injectors, mainly because I don't want to subject my blower to corrosion like that.   Also Roots blowers don't have an internal compression ratio like a Whipple screw type blower.  I think the best location for injectors would be under the blower.  In your application, I would put them directly pointing at the port opening, as high in the manifold as possible.  This would provide sufficient time for the "cooling effect" to take place and bypass potential issues with the blower.

If simply using water/methanol injection for cooling purposes only, you are leaving performance on table.

With all that being said, I keep coming back to the air-to-water intercooler.  My decision, after weighing all the above, it boils down to; I don't want to have a secondary fuel that is required simply to drive to the cove and back.  Almost the same as why I didn't want to run N2O, I hate filling bottles.

Hey Joe, Good piece.

Couple of things. I didn't know about the methanol / aluminum corrosion, I'll keep an eye on it.

When I spoke with Rodney at Prometh he doesn't really like having methanol as a required fuel for running. Complicates things, I tried it and for me it wasn't worth the gains to try and dial it in.

These are boost referenced systems so cruising never activates the system. I didn't like the boost reference switch, I made a mechanical switch that is on the carb. I only want mine to activate on a WOT run. When I come off a run the methanol/water is purged pretty quickly. When I ran the boost referenced switch it would activate at 7psi since I'm running 9psi total. At times I wasn't on a hard run and the system would active causing a load up condition. I could feel the hesitation at the start of the next run.

I agree on the carb plates aquaholic is looking at. The injection needs to be after boost. I'm betting he would see a significant seat of the pants gain if done correctly to simply cool the charge. He already has the bungs on his intake. The cool part is this is not a normal high $$$$ boat part, pretty inexpensive really.

 


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