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Induction thoughts

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aquaholic72

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« on: February 17, 2017, 03:53:43 AM »
So I have to make some changes really soon to my flatty if I'm gonna make the opener... Outside of my rigging I need to change,  I'm thinking about pulling the edelbrock 750's off my blower in favor of 2 600 double pumpers,  and setting them up for E85... I can't run a chiller with my setup.  My tunnel ram was frosty cold,  my blower and plenum are hot as fuck, iv got all the timing pulled out for pump gas and it been OK,  but I think cooling the intake charge with more tune ability from the holleys and maybe being able to put alil more lead to it might make it happier!!???  Your thoughts???  The thread is yours gentleman!!  I'm all ears..  👍👍

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« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 04:13:09 AM by aquaholic72 »
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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2017, 04:56:45 AM »
Why can't you run a chiller?
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aquaholic72

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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2017, 05:03:26 AM »
Why can't you run a chiller?
My intake and plenum won't allow it,,,  it's a different setup,,  looks Bitchen,  but can't put a chiller on it...  Looks like a weird cross tunnel ram.. 

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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2017, 05:06:09 AM »
..

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FordLover

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« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2017, 05:09:31 AM »
Looks badass yo!👍

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« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2017, 05:16:09 AM »
Looks badass yo!👍

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Ohhhh f#ckoff Mr Ford guy.....  That's the shit already on my yellow turd....  I'm looking for advise from people that know something!!!  Lmfao!!  😅😅😅😅👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

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« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2017, 05:16:58 AM »
Okay gotcha. You're going to battle heat no matter what without a chiller but you're on the right path if you're not going to run one.

The car guys would kill to have our ability to cool the charge like our boats are able to do with unlimited cooled raw water access.

I thought about E85 but it's hard to find at the river where my boat lives 99% of the time. I think the Terrible's and AM/PM in Parker used to carry it years ago but not anymore. I've stuck with a chiller and AvGas.
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« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2017, 05:26:10 AM »
Okay gotcha. You're going to battle heat no matter what without a chiller but you're on the right path if you're not going to run one.

The car guys would kill to have our ability to cool the charge like our boats are able to do with unlimited cooled raw water access.

I thought about E85 but it's hard to find at the river where my boat lives 99% of the time. I think the Terrible's and AM/PM in Parker used to carry it years ago but not anymore. I've stuck with a chiller and AvGas.
I also play at big river 99% of the time,  but E85 is becoming available close to me so I can just jug my fuel out with me instead of getting hammered for Parker oil premium .which isn't cheap at all!!!

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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2017, 05:29:41 AM »
I also play at big river 99% of the time,  but E85 is becoming available close to me so I can just jug my fuel out with me instead of getting hammered for Parker oil premium .which isn't cheap at all!!!

your friendly local v-drive owner

I'm in the Big River area as well. That's a very cool setup you got. I'll follow along as I'm interested to hear what you do and the results.
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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2017, 05:43:28 AM »
I'm in the Big River area as well. That's a very cool setup you got. I'll follow along as I'm interested to hear what you do and the results.
I'll keep you posted,  I just bought the 2nd 600 double pumper so I need to talk to the carb guy about his thoughts...  I really want to hear from the main players on here for their thoughts..  GT, FLUSHER, 609,PROPLESS, MASHONIT,, K034,,,, not a lot of talk about E85,n boats..  Just looking for feedback,  just like you.. Lol

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« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 06:55:00 AM by aquaholic72 »
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2017, 05:50:03 AM »
I already know my main E85 PLAYER ON THIS FORUM.. Isn't gonna chime in,  even tho he runs it in everything he street races!!  Fucker!!  Lol

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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2017, 05:54:52 AM »
Ohhhh f#ckoff Mr Ford guy.....  That's the shit already on my yellow turd....  I'm looking for advise from people that know something!!!  Lmfao!!  😅😅😅😅👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

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Oh I agree, I know nothing. Doesn't mean your turd of an engine doesn't look good.........for a Chevy. Lol

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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2017, 06:03:01 AM »
I already know my main E85 PLAYER ON THIS FORUM.. Isn't gonna chime in,  even tho he runs it in everything he street races!!  Fucker!!  Lol

your friendly local v-drive owner
my bro actually tried to talk me into setting up my engine for e85 when we were building it but in my little town it wasn't available so I ditched that plan

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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2017, 06:11:28 AM »
Oh I agree, I know nothing. Doesn't mean your turd of an engine doesn't look good.........for a Chevy. Lol

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Did you just give me a compliment??  Is all that rain up there getting to you brother?????  Lol. It's gonna start raining frogs at my house soon isn't it!!!!!  😅😅😅😅

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« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2017, 06:12:53 AM »
my bro actually tried to talk me into setting up my engine for e85 when we were building it but in my little town it wasn't available so I ditched that plan

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Ya,,  availability has kept me away as well...

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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2017, 06:26:27 AM »
Did you just give me a compliment??  Is all that rain up there getting to you brother?????  Lol. It's gonna start raining frogs at my house soon isn't it!!!!!  😅😅😅😅

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Weeeeelllllll, it was a back handed compliment, but sure if it makes you happy. Lol
It is going to rain sparkles, butterflies and unicorns at your house.

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« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2017, 06:35:29 AM »
Weeeeelllllll, it was a back handed compliment, but sure if it makes you happy. Lol
It is going to rain sparkles, butterflies and unicorns at your house.

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Damn!!  I have selectfull  reading disorder,,  all I saw was you know nothing and my Chevy was cool!! Gets me thru the day tho!!!  😅🔫

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« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2017, 06:39:19 AM »
Boards have been pretty dead lately. Probably winter slumber, at least this subject will bring cool convo when the smart dudes show up.

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« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2017, 06:43:10 AM »
Have you looked into water/methanol injection? It will cool the charge significantly for you.

I'm running mine right in front of the carb, but this is after induction on my set up. I run 1/3 F & L racing methanol, 2/3 distilled water. I've experimented with more methanol, but going beyond 1/3 requires fuel mixture jetting adjustments. I have a very efficient intercooler. I picked up 100 rpm on the top end with a $450 system.

Call Rodney at Prometh, formerly Alcohol Injection Systems. I worked on his phone system for him and traded for my methanol injection system. He's a good guy who will give you accurate and honest advice. He's not about the sale, it's about the solution. He runs his business like I've run mine for the last 20 years, straight forward honest advice. He's in Oxnard.

https://prometh.com/

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« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2017, 06:43:23 AM »
Fuck!!  I guess I should have just posted on smack talk..  Everyone would have chimed in to bash the vdrive!!  Lmfao!!! 

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« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2017, 06:48:51 AM »
That last comment was for fordlover not j2..

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« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2017, 06:55:37 AM »
That last comment was for fordlover not j2..

your friendly local v-drive owner

Dude, I've read enough of your late night posts to know who you're bitchen about  O0 You been to bed yet? Besides I got a Chevy  :thumbup:

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« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2017, 07:02:55 AM »
Have you looked into water/methanol injection? It will cool the charge significantly for you.

I'm running mine right in front of the carb, but this is after induction on my set up. I run 1/3 F & L racing methanol, 2/3 distilled water. I've experimented with more methanol, but going beyond 1/3 requires fuel mixture jetting adjustments. I have a very efficient intercooler. I picked up 100 rpm on the top end with a $450 system.

Call Rodney at Prometh, formerly Alcohol Injection Systems. I worked on his phone system for him and traded for my methanol injection system. He's a good guy who will give you accurate and honest advice. He's not about the sale, it's about the solution. He runs his business like I've run mine for the last 20 years, straight forward honest advice. He's in Oxnard.

https://prometh.com/
That would be awesome if you could spray it out of a nitrous style plate .. I do keep forgetting my intake has plugged injector bungs tho.....  Hmmm maybe another option.....  Thanks j2

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« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2017, 07:33:13 AM »
That would be awesome if you could spray it out of a nitrous style plate .. I do keep forgetting my intake has plugged injector bungs tho.....  Hmmm maybe another option.....  Thanks j2

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Just curious,  is this a normal issue with blowers or just with your particular setup?

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« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2017, 07:54:48 AM »
Just curious,  is this a normal issue with blowers or just with your particular setup?

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Yes running induction creates lots of heat. If you can't run an intercooler then a lot of people run the water/meth injection to simply cool the charge increasing horsepower.

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« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2017, 05:06:53 PM »
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« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2017, 05:15:24 PM »
Found this lil gem on promeths website

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« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2017, 05:17:48 PM »
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2031137
That's bitchen Joe!!  Way above my pay grade tho!!!  😅😅😅👍👍👍

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« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2017, 05:45:42 PM »
Just out of curiosity, what blower are you running and how fast are you spinning it?

A small pulley and a chiller will make all your dreams come true, just saying lol
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« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2017, 05:56:53 PM »
It's an old b&m 250.. Makes about 10 pounds of boost right before it bangs the rev limiter..

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« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2017, 06:12:56 PM »
That's bitchen Joe!!  Way above my pay grade tho!!!  😅😅😅👍👍👍

your friendly local v-drive owner

Did you scroll down?

I haven't been really fond of the available chillers.  Everyone I have talked to about them say, "No serious Roots application uses one." OR "They aren't worth the weight penalty."  Every legit boosted car, on gasoline, is intercooled.  I have been running some calculations on my engine.  If anything, it's obvious that intercooling is essential.

I do believe there is a better way to approach an intercooled Roots application without adding another hundred pounds.  After reading that thread, I have a renewed vigor in intercooling my Roots.

I have been watching the centrifugal and turbo guys and I really like how they are integrating the heat exchanger into the manifold.   I was very suprised with what has been accomplished with fabricated copper tubing.
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« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2017, 12:47:29 AM »
Ya I scrolled down..  That was really bitchin what he built..  140 feet of copper tubing!!  Holy chit!!  ,, still nobody wants to touch on the E85 deal tho.. 

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« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2017, 12:50:43 AM »
I'm kinda liking J2's methanol injection suggestion as well tho..  Probably cheaper to buy that dual plate setup from prometh(funny ass name for a legit company ) then converting the carbs to e85..

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« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2017, 12:55:17 AM »
Just out of curiosity, what blower are you running and how fast are you spinning it?

A small pulley and a chiller will make all your dreams come true, just saying lol


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« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2017, 12:20:39 PM »
Ultimately, I decided that E85 isn't for me at this point.  I have seen equal numbers of tuners struggling with E85 as there are successful.  I hear nightmares about about consistency ( http://injectordynamics.com/articles/e85/), but the final nail was availability.  To my knowledge, the only place to get it near us is by J&M speed center.

I did have wet dreams about setting up a second injection hat and pump specifically for E85.  That only makes two halfast attempts.  You got pick and go all out.   With that being said, cam, heads, and compression need to be application specific.  I think your heads would lend themselves well to E85 on your cubic inch.  From what I understand, compression for a blown alcohol program should be 11:1 minimum.

Here another thought that I keep kicking around.  I believe it was Unchained who had a thread on PB where he built his own still.  It's not very expensive and there are many plans online for just such an endeavor.  If I recall correctly, downloading the plans he used was about $60.  Since I don't know anything about making alcohol, I would pay that because it is a proven design.  His yield was actually pretty impressive.

You never know, making your own ethanol might have some additional perks.  I mentioned this to a friend who comes from a family of moonshiners; he said, "Wow, we skim off and discard the ethanol to keep the drinkable alcohol.  You are going to do just the opposite."
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« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2017, 03:59:43 PM »
I have also been considering methanol injection on mine.  From what I understand, the most beneficial gains are made when the methanol injection is actually producing the appropriate AFR, while reducing the amount of fuel through the carburetors.

On a stripped blower, at least 70% of the fuel needs to pass through the blower for lubricating the strips.  Unless someone machined your rotors for strips, your blower should not have that issue because there is actually clearance between the rotors and the case.

On my engine, I think I am near the limit of my 6-71.  I don't think I have enough engine to substitute methanol as enrichment AND reduce gasoline passing through the blower while still maintaining sufficient lubrication for the strips.  This is assuming that the methanol is injected under the blower.

If the alcohol passes through the blower, it will chill the rotors and actually cause them to contract.  This will open the clearances and and increase leakage, reducing blower efficiency.  A lubricating additive would also be required for lubricating the strips (not a problem for your blower).

Another minor issue is that methanol is caustic and badly corrodes aluminum.  Normally, everything that comes in contact with the methanol would need to be hard anodized and/or coated to prevent corrosion.  Subsequently, the whole methanol system will need to be flushed at the end of every day.

You are looking at the under-carb plate system.  I am not convinced that that is the best location for the injectors, mainly because I don't want to subject my blower to corrosion like that.   Also Roots blowers don't have an internal compression ratio like a Whipple screw type blower.  I think the best location for injectors would be under the blower.  In your application, I would put them directly pointing at the port opening, as high in the manifold as possible.  This would provide sufficient time for the "cooling effect" to take place and bypass potential issues with the blower.

If simply using water/methanol injection for cooling purposes only, you are leaving performance on table.

With all that being said, I keep coming back to the air-to-water intercooler.  My decision, after weighing all the above, it boils down to; I don't want to have a secondary fuel that is required simply to drive to the cove and back.  Almost the same as why I didn't want to run N2O, I hate filling bottles.
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« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2017, 04:05:37 PM »
Just thinking, how much adjustment do you have in your belt?  What is the cost/availability of a longer belt?

Fortunately, you know a badass machinist.

Cheers,

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« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2017, 04:11:00 PM »
Long belts are available for it,  not to expensive.  Also my blower has Teflon stripped rotors.

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« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2017, 04:41:58 PM »

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Aaaahhhhhhh puddin,  your engine is freaking cute.

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« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2017, 05:14:53 PM »
Also my blower has Teflon stripped rotors.

your friendly local v-drive owner

Everything that applies to fuel lubricating the strips is then relative to your blower.
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« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2017, 12:40:21 AM »
Aaaahhhhhhh puddin,  your engine is freaking cute.

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Awwww,  thanks pumpkin,  really means nothing coming from you!!  Lmfao

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« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2017, 01:03:24 AM »
Everything that applies to fuel lubricating the strips is then relative to your blower.
So again,  brought on my interest in the E85 deal..  They sell the additives to lubricate the top end for the fuel, I have drag racer buddies that have had good success with it even running nitrous with it,  it's all in having the correct setup so it doesn't lean out.... the chillers are available for my blower still,  I'm staring at one in my garage right now that's for matches909's boat,  but they are 1500 to buy and my plenum will not take it without probably at least a 2" thick custom adapter plate to bolt a chiller down.. Hence my interest in E85. We have it available now off the 215 and orange show rd.  The day they got the pumps running it was 85 cents a gallon!!  Lol

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« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2017, 01:29:19 AM »
So again,  brought on my interest in the E85 deal..  They sell the additives to lubricate the top end for the fuel, I have drag racer buddies that have had good success with it even running nitrous with it,  it's all in having the correct setup so it doesn't lean out....

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« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2017, 01:31:22 AM »
The chillers are available for my blower still,  I'm staring at one in my garage right now that's for matches909's boat,  but they are 1500 to buy and my plenum will not take it without probably at least a 2" thick custom adapter plate to bolt a chiller down...

Build the chiller into the spacer
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« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2017, 01:33:36 AM »
We have it available now off the 215 and orange show rd.  The day they got the pumps running it was 85 cents a gallon!!  Lol

Wow!

Hmmmm...
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« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2017, 01:37:05 AM »
No balls, no glory!
Lmfao!!!  Thanks brother.  I might just put the 600's on it and leave it alone... Maybe one day I'll run across a cheap chiller and can pay this baddass machinest I know to build an adapter plate for it!!!  But who knows.  We'll see how froggy I get...  I really need to focus on the boat having manners before I worry about the intake air temperature,,  won't mean shit if I crash it..  😅😅

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« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2017, 01:41:26 AM »
Wow!

Hmmmm...
As your interest peeked!!!  Lol

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« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2017, 04:51:21 AM »
No balls, no glory!
My money says he is drinking. Normally we get a 5000 word response, but now we get these 4 beautiful words. Lol

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« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2017, 05:24:44 AM »
He couldn't have said it better..  Flushers awesome and iv had the pleasure to spend alil time with him,  smart motherfucker!!!  Maybe if he E85's he can lead this pack with the knowledge, cuz clearly he was the only one with an opinion outside of me thinking about throwing caution to wind and trying it out... We'll see how it goes down.. But thanks Joe,  I always appreciate your feedback..  Means a lot brother...

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« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2017, 07:28:42 AM »
I have also been considering methanol injection on mine.  From what I understand, the most beneficial gains are made when the methanol injection is actually producing the appropriate AFR, while reducing the amount of fuel through the carburetors.

On a stripped blower, at least 70% of the fuel needs to pass through the blower for lubricating the strips.  Unless someone machined your rotors for strips, your blower should not have that issue because there is actually clearance between the rotors and the case.

On my engine, I think I am near the limit of my 6-71.  I don't think I have enough engine to substitute methanol as enrichment AND reduce gasoline passing through the blower while still maintaining sufficient lubrication for the strips.  This is assuming that the methanol is injected under the blower.

If the alcohol passes through the blower, it will chill the rotors and actually cause them to contract.  This will open the clearances and and increase leakage, reducing blower efficiency.  A lubricating additive would also be required for lubricating the strips (not a problem for your blower).

Another minor issue is that methanol is caustic and badly corrodes aluminum.  Normally, everything that comes in contact with the methanol would need to be hard anodized and/or coated to prevent corrosion.  Subsequently, the whole methanol system will need to be flushed at the end of every day.

You are looking at the under-carb plate system.  I am not convinced that that is the best location for the injectors, mainly because I don't want to subject my blower to corrosion like that.   Also Roots blowers don't have an internal compression ratio like a Whipple screw type blower.  I think the best location for injectors would be under the blower.  In your application, I would put them directly pointing at the port opening, as high in the manifold as possible.  This would provide sufficient time for the "cooling effect" to take place and bypass potential issues with the blower.

If simply using water/methanol injection for cooling purposes only, you are leaving performance on table.

With all that being said, I keep coming back to the air-to-water intercooler.  My decision, after weighing all the above, it boils down to; I don't want to have a secondary fuel that is required simply to drive to the cove and back.  Almost the same as why I didn't want to run N2O, I hate filling bottles.

Hey Joe, Good piece.

Couple of things. I didn't know about the methanol / aluminum corrosion, I'll keep an eye on it.

When I spoke with Rodney at Prometh he doesn't really like having methanol as a required fuel for running. Complicates things, I tried it and for me it wasn't worth the gains to try and dial it in.

These are boost referenced systems so cruising never activates the system. I didn't like the boost reference switch, I made a mechanical switch that is on the carb. I only want mine to activate on a WOT run. When I come off a run the methanol/water is purged pretty quickly. When I ran the boost referenced switch it would activate at 7psi since I'm running 9psi total. At times I wasn't on a hard run and the system would active causing a load up condition. I could feel the hesitation at the start of the next run.

I agree on the carb plates aquaholic is looking at. The injection needs to be after boost. I'm betting he would see a significant seat of the pants gain if done correctly to simply cool the charge. He already has the bungs on his intake. The cool part is this is not a normal high $$$$ boat part, pretty inexpensive really.

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« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2017, 02:51:23 PM »
My money says he is drinking. Normally we get a 5000 word response, but now we get these 4 beautiful words. Lol

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Actually, I'm on a strict coffee diet.

I try to be impartial and simply present the facts as I understand them.  Everything is an option for me, but I have to evaluate what path will get me to my objective without going down in flames.

I don't see an E85 program in my near future.  It is a huge teaser to have to buy E85 in a drum, from a race fuel manufacturer, when there is E85 at the pump, within 4 miles.

Kudos to Bone for picking a lane and letting it rip!  AND for not being scared to have a meltdown in the process!
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« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2017, 03:22:29 PM »
I'm not very fond of the meltdown sinario Joe!!  Lmao.

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