"Flat tappet Camshafts .vs. Roller Cams ."

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enginedoctor

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« on: October 23, 2008, 06:45:52 PM »
Based on today's issues w/flat tappet cams.... In my humble opinion I believe that

The  flat tappet cam should be upgraded to a hyd./roller or solid roller...

Nothing worse than loosing a engine over cam failure.  Just my opinion.

Ralph Brunt... Put in your input on this :) :)
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beerjet

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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2008, 06:48:21 PM »
Sorry Dave , I'm no Ralph but at least doubling the scratch would my #1 reason for goin flat tappet .  :-\

-beerjet-
i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

Ralph Brunt

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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2008, 07:07:45 PM »
no pro here either :-\ but, i feel that if you take all the precautions that go along with breaking in a flat or hydrolic cam. low spring pressure, oil additive and proper rpm. i take it one step further and send my cam and lifters to cam research(http://www.camresearchcorp.com/ and they run it in on their machine. cost 60 bucks.

i dont know about the chevys but bbf dont do so well with hyd roller cams, the pushrod angles are tough so the geomotry is a pain. i run a roller in my race boat and hyd in my lake boat.

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« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2008, 05:45:45 PM »
That is the key Ralph... Taking the precautions.  Unfortunately many do not.

As for myself, I have not encountered any Flat tappet problems in my bus... I still beleive
 ( aside from brute negligance and total lack of common sence,etc.)
that if the right procedures are followed, there should not be issues.

But the beauty of roller grinds speaks for itself..  Also I agree on the  Valve Geometry issues

relevant to Fords/ Chrys etc... As for you Beerjet... Break the cam in properly with the correct

additives and you should be fine.
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429heads

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« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2008, 06:44:03 PM »
I called Clay Smith Engineering and talked to them about cam break in . I asked him  about cams going flat, The reason being that two of his solid lifter cams are in the race car I build heads for #20  super stock  dirt car Fortmohave race way AZ and #19 car.
# 20 top in points #19 #2 in points. Now these car have to run solid or hyd cams most
use the solid cams I call Chet Herbert cams and Delta camshaft inc I ask about cams going flat all them said that with proper set up no worry.. Clay said that all the motors they run on Dino
they use Valvoline race oil that it has the proper chem in it for breaking with light weight springs with right set up on the guides push rod rocker set right. He even said the same thing that I say 99percent of racers don't no how to set valves or when to set them.When Steve was here one time I called Clay Smith on the cam he said 145lb on seat and I told him and Steve saw the springs on the tester 200lb @ 1.900 His cam had won many races cam is now set 160lb on the seat going re set at 175lb on seat for next race . New cam in motor in car #20 set 145lb seat will reset to 165lb on seat for next race. 7100rpm  I wont motor to turn 74or7500 rpm . And last race ran the track champ form NV And the top  car from the Gold Nugget fast cars big money and track champ never been beat tell now I was told they had stroker motors and no rules at there track heads or motor. Are heads GM
350 Iron Head ported 1/2 into intake bore scoped runners in heads matched cc just like NASCAR heads we smoked there 383 and 434 sb by ten cars
are heads are built and legal at all tracks we wont to run $1500.00 turkey shoot out. Graig Mintone
Bullhead Auto is going to get the brake down on the oils he did lots oil tests and been to class on oil for wear on large motors some that cost many thousand of dollars to rebuild
and they run oil tests on  these motors to tell when to rebuilt them and how long they can go. Been building heads for 54 years started on the old hemi - Flat heads real nice to adj
valves you bet even 49 OLDS.  If you got a boat and Eng switch to start go hyd, With a real motor big cam big heads and need for speed and push button starter use mechanical
cam and turn motor over all the time, my new boat motor will have old cam 300lb seat pressure open 600lb + Call Valvoline and check out there new off road oil same as NASCAR FORDS run full load zinc for of road use only Look at Red line 5 w  2w pro stock oil BEER JETS HEADS had 190 plus spring and all lifters were like new valves were ready to go burned and cracked Go on line or call Valvoline tech they will give the low down on oil they stand behind there oil for cam break in look and read it will take the BS out
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 07:37:36 PM by 429heads »

beerjet

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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2008, 07:27:23 PM »
There is no denying the advantages all around of the roller cam .  My "crewchief" who wrenched on my motor most of the time , was always all over my ass about giving EVERYTHING a once over and double checking everything before even running it prior to a lake trip or running it at all . It's amazing how a look now and then and some research does a motor good .
i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2008, 07:34:52 PM »
There is no denying the advantages all around of the roller cam .  My "crewchief" who wrenched on my motor most of the time , was always all over my ass about giving EVERYTHING a once over and double checking everything before even running it prior to a lake trip or running it at all . It's amazing how a look now and then and some research does a motor good .

Well whatever you did to our engine , you did it right.....

It really looked good. I just have to follow your footsteps and it should last awhile longer  ;)

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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2008, 07:50:38 PM »
How many races on motor and heads what oil did you use what
were valves set at stem end looked good, didn't like the stacked shims
but it worked ok so well use again the same way. and same seat  pres
190+ Steve said it is Clay Smith cam must be it looked good.


 
 

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« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2008, 08:03:31 AM »
Royal Purple makes a new non-synthetic break-in oil with high levels of zinc for flat tappets. The lack of Zinc is what causes the cams to go flat, hopefully that will help out all of you who still want to run a flat tappet. Me personally, I'm done with them.

http://www.royalpurple.com/rp-products.html
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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2008, 07:34:00 PM »
Hmmm ;D
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Ralph Brunt

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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2008, 05:07:27 AM »
took this from the 460 website  (enjoy)
Camshaft Machine Company (CMC) located in Jackson, Michigan was established in 1942 and is probably the largest designer and manufacturer of automotive camshafts in the world. CMC produces cams for GM, Ford, Chrysler, Comp Cams, Lunati, Edlebrock, Crane, Wolverine and many others.

Most (but not all) of the automotive camshafts produced today are produced at one of the “Big Three” cam manufacturers all located in Michigan. CMC of Jackson, MI., Engine Power Components (EPC) of Muskegon, MI., and Waver Bartel Cam Company, of Grand Haven, MI.

CMC purchased Wolverine approximately 1990/1991.

Crane Cams purchased CMC around 1995 and Wolverine was included in this purchase. During this period Crane owned both Wolverine and CMC.

Crane sold CMC to Federal Mogul about April or May of 1999. Crane did not sell Wolverine to Federal Mogul and Crane still owns Wolverine. Federal Mogul also owns the Waver Martel Cam Company.

CMC was the OEM supplier for most of the muscle car cams for GM, Ford, Chrysler and others back in the muscle car era. This included the infamous 9779067, 9779068, 9779041 etc. CMC currently supplies many cams to the OEM manufacturers and holds copyrights for many OEM grinds. If you purchase a Pontiac “original” muscle car grind like the 068 for an example, no matter whom you purchase it from it will be made by CMC.

Another interesting tid bit is that some time prior to 1990 when Crane and Wolverine were competitors Crane developed their own version of the Pontiac 9779068 (and maybe others) but advertised it as a computer enhanced version and not an exact duplicate. The reason that Crane did not produce an exact duplicate is because CMC still holds copyrights to this cam and many others.

Wolverine does not have their own cam grinding shop. CMC supplies most of the grinds to Wolverine. Crane also grinds some of Wolverine cams.

Even though Crane has their own cam grinding shop CMC still grinds some of the cams sold under the Crane name. Crane currently has the contract for the Summit brand cams. Crane also grinds some cams sold under the Wolverine name. Those Summit cams could be produced by CMC or Crane, hence the rumored Wolverine Summit connection.

It has been rumored that Crane makes all Wolverine Cams and this is not true. Most of the cams sold under the Wolverine name are produced by CMC. It is true that a small percentage of cams sold under the Wolverine name are produced at the Crane manufacturing facility. To complicate things further it seems that certain grinds could be purchased under the Crane or Wolverine name that are the exact same grind, and CMC or Crane depending on the grind could have produced the cam.

It’s interesting that most people have not heard of CMC, EPC, or Waver Bartel even though they have been around for a very long time, longer than a lot of us have.

Not much will change now that Federal Mogul owns CMC. They will still produce the same cams and will pretty much supply them to the same customers sold under various nameplates. Federal Mogul recently acquired the TRW automotive products division also. The infamous TRW forged pistons are still produced at the same factory as when they were owned by TRW. Federal mogul also now owns seal Power. Federal Mogul also purchased the Clevite Bearing company. This gave Federal Mogul an almost airtight grip on the automotive bearing industry. This created an unfair marketing advantage and the Federal trade Commission (FTC) required Federal Mogul to sell Clevite, which they have done.

So the next time you buy your new Comp Cams, Lunati, Ultradyne, Iskenderian, Engle, or other cam there is a good chance it was actually made in Michigan at one of the top three cam makers. What the cam companies do is have their proprietary grinds (design, lob profile etc.) and have them ground by one of the big three. Very few cams are actually ground by a name brand cam company, Crane is one exception but they don’t grind all of theirs either.

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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2008, 09:28:10 AM »
Good job pulling the covers Ralph .

-beerjet-
i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2008, 11:07:36 AM »
Cool information.
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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2008, 07:09:01 PM »
Yup!!!  You are correct... Don't forget that there are also "NON- DOMESTIC " BILLETTS out there.

 :mad:
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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2008, 04:50:04 PM »
My cheap flat tappet cost me an expensive short block, Imo you can take every precaution and do everything correct and still lose one. Needless to say I went roller this time around. I was suprised the other day when I fired it up it had over 12lbs. of vac. at idle, with .715 lift.

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« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2008, 10:07:30 PM »
...So the next time you buy your new Comp Cams, Lunati, Ultradyne, Iskenderian, Engle, or other cam there is a good chance it was actually made in Michigan at one of the top three cam makers. What the cam companies do is have their proprietary grinds (design, lob profile etc.) and have them ground by one of the big three. Very few cams are actually ground by a name brand cam company, Crane is one exception but they don’t grind all of theirs either.
I've known this for a long, LONG time.  And it doesn't apply to only camshafts. ;)  Lot's of manufactures share the same source and simply put the part in their brand name box.  In short, the only CompCams camshafts that are ground at Comp are their custom grinds, for example.

But back to the point.  The cams are ground at the locations noted in Ralph's post above, but the origin of the cam CORES is another story.  Good quality american cast cam cores, cast of american raw materials, is virtually non-existant these days.  The majority of iron cam cores are coming from a foundry in Mexico...and I argue that the material is suspect.  And this is why we keep a good supply of american-made OEM 429/460 cam cores around for regrind purposes.  Also, in addition to materials quality maybe the hardeneing process is not adequately controlled down there in Mexico?  (That's a question in my mind, not a known fact.)

Add to this that many oil manufactures are reducing zinc concentration in your motor oils and all bets are off.  The zinc molecule stands upright on the part (cam lobe, in this case) and offers a shield of protection from metal-to metal wear.  Less protection equals more metal wear.

Lastly, I breaky my flat tappet cams in at 1500 rpm with occassional blips to 2000, NOT 2500-3000+ like others....who then blame the cam company for their cam  getting wiped or internal component engine failure.  Forget the higher rpms that the cam card recommends and start 1500 & up.  After the first 20 minutes @ 1500 and a cool down/heat cycle, start the engine again but this time hold 1800-2000 rpm with higher occassional throttle blips.  Solid flat tapet: take out the inner springs during break-in.

in summary:
  • use a qualty brand name motor oil with a high zinc content
  • use an engine break-in concentrate with anti-scuffing agents specifically for camshaft break-in
  • start cam break-in at a reasonable rpm, not 3000!
LO

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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2008, 10:18:52 PM »
i dont know about the chevys but bbf dont do so well with hyd roller cams, the pushrod angles are tough so the geomotry is a pain.
...I agree on the Valve Geometry issues relevant to Fords...
Specifically, the issue with the Ford 429/460 is not a critical geometry issue in and of itself.

The upside to the Ford 429/460 is the short (and effectively stiffer) pushrods, thanks to the cam being plenty high in the factory passenger car blocks.  The downside to this is that a hydro-roller lifter is rather tall and so the pushrod needed with a hydro roller lifter in a 460 gets so short that the engine's pushrod attack angles get wildy exaggerated...resulting in clearance issues where the pushrods pass through the heads.  The pushrod tubes in the heads must be aggressively relieved in most 460 high performance engine builds that use a hydraulic roller...and while that can be addressed, what still remains is that the exaggerated pushrod attack angles will not linearly translate the ramp profiling of the selected camshaft.

But hey, if you are building a big hp roller motor, what the hell are you doing playing with hydro lifters in the first place????  Get some solid rollers and buld the engine right, dammit!

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« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2008, 05:31:59 PM »
Okay, at the risk of gettin lit up I'll ask it.

Other than the obvious benefit of the breakin issue, where is the value of a Solid Roller cam over a modern solid flat tappett cam?

Let's taylor this for us run of the mill guys that are lucky to run their boats a handful of times when you factor in friends, family, work and weather and not the racer dudes that are in search of every last HP.

The primary reason I ask is focused on the significant cost difference between the two and IF we remove the breakin benefit, is there something else that offsets that significant cost difference (I'm assuming a early MK IV Chevy that would require retrofits). 

Thanks for not flaming me in advance ( ::))..............john

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« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2008, 06:56:34 PM »
Hi John.  Fwiw the  cam I lost, the motor was put together at the end of 05, and I burried it in july of this year. In defense of the flat tappet guys, one could say that in 3 years time you would need to prolly replace the lifters and or springs. I dunno, it sure sucked losing my motor with 30 or so hours over a cam lobe, and a munched lifter. I went solid roller, but hyd roller would be a little less maintance.

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« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2008, 11:47:08 PM »
Okay, at the risk of gettin lit up I'll ask it.

Other than the obvious benefit of the breakin issue, where is the value of a Solid Roller cam over a modern solid flat tappett cam?

Let's taylor this for us run of the mill guys that are lucky to run their boats a handful of times when you factor in friends, family, work and weather and not the racer dudes that are in search of every last HP.

The primary reason I ask is focused on the significant cost difference between the two and IF we remove the breakin benefit, is there something else that offsets that significant cost difference (I'm assuming a early MK IV Chevy that would require retrofits). 

Thanks for not flaming me in advance ( ::))..............john
That was pretty much my point . Iffin I ever get around to rebuilding the motor in my Hallett cruiser that will never see 5k rpm , I just cant see spending the coin on a complete roller set -up .

Most guys have stamped steel rocker arms with oval or peanut port heads and realistically just want a ski motor, and never mind what a "high performance" engine builder will cost to assemble it all right will cost .

There is no contest which is better . For Joe schmoe , his wallet will indicate which way to go .

-beerjet-
i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2008, 04:35:37 PM »
Yup BJ,
I'll be the first to admit, IF I had the coin, I'd jump on a full roller setup along with a billet block, Callies crank and a bizillion other highdollar things.  What I'm not sure is if I would ever have a chance to really appreciate what they are capable of.

With our crappy weather up here, I'm hoping to get our boat wet for 6 to 10 times a year.  Given that I pee my pants whenever I get scared (no, not really...ugh, no really I'm kiddin), I'm just not sure if a Big M block, double forged and whizz'd banged BBC is really necessary....  A Roller motor is along these lines.  I'm not sure with my junk parts if I would ever realize the potential that it can provide OVER a good flat tappet cam. 

Fodder for good discussion for sure.........john
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 06:57:22 PM by jrork »

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« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2008, 01:35:37 PM »
From my amateur point of view, the roller lifter was created to counter the high spring pressures that are required to accommodate the higher lift and more radical grinds. A draw back to higher lift and more aggressive grinds is more spring pressure. The flat tappet lifters don’t handle the higher lift an/or grinds because of pressure. The advantage of roller lifters is a much better grind that is not attainable in flats, but require greater spring pressure. When you look at a roller cam, even a mild grind, the lobes are almost rectangular in shape with rounded corners, not egg shaped at all, as in a flat tappet. The best thing about roller is of course is power. I believe the only better way to get HP per dollar spent is by using NOS. The worst thing about roller is price. As you know over double the price. But if you remove the price of a flat cam, lifters, spring from the price of a roller cam, lifter, springs set up, for $200 more you get 40 to 80 more HP in a pump gas engine. I think that’s a bargain. 

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« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2008, 01:50:01 PM »
The roller was actually developed to reduce "rolling friction" in the everyday engine and allow more miles to be obtained through the OEM and ultimately gain some MPG, however a huge side benifit was gained through use of this type of setup which led to a huge high performance following...roller cam setups have been used for decades in other applications, it was only a matter of time before HP applications followed suit, huge gains can be realized through this technology, but for the everyday Joe, it still costs too much up front...but like everything else, the price is staring to fall...

Just remember, money is no object... because I have none ;D

I would love to see a side by side comparo from a flat tappet to a roller, grind for grind, I think the results would suprise us all...

Also IMO if you're not turning over say 5,500 RPM, I don't think all of the benifits of a roller can be realized...could be F-ed in the head too though...

GT
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

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« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2008, 02:18:30 PM »
In reguards to money, “How do you know when your boat is as fast as it is going to get?”……………………………………………......................................... “When your wallet is empty”

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« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2008, 02:21:06 PM »
In reguards to money, “How do you know when your boat is as fast as it is going to get?”……………………………………………......................................... “When your wallet is empty”

LMAO, or better yet, "when your back is hot and oily!"   ;D

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

 


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