454 breaking pistons

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1975_Challenger_461

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« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2015, 08:04:46 PM »
Might it have anything to do with the gen v oil cooling passages? I looped a braided line as if the external cooler was still there. Using a hamburger style pan, which contributes to the excessive oil heat. Yes new oil pump.

First pic is the worst two set of rods. The set on the left was where the knock was coming from as they are quite smashed.

Third pic is the worst two halves of main bearings ( didn't pull crank all the way out).

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1975_Challenger_461

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« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2015, 08:08:14 PM »
Oil pressure was 45-50 in the beginning. Dropped to 10 at idle when hot. By the time it was near dock, idled back, it was at 5. Because of the increase in bearings clearances.

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« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2015, 08:10:07 PM »
Also, I always use a massive amount of assembly lube and always prime the engine until oil starts dribbling out of the rockers.

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« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2015, 08:11:06 PM »
Again, 3rd motor, same issues. Is it something I'm doing or not doing? I've built plenty of engines but can't get the ones in my boat to survive longer than a few runs out if that.

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« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2015, 08:12:56 PM »
Might it have anything to do with the gen v oil cooling passages? I looped a braided line as if the external cooler was still there. Using a hamburger style pan, which contributes to the excessive oil heat. Yes new oil pump.

First pic is the worst two set of rods. The set on the left was where the knock was coming from as they are quite smashed.

Third pic is the worst two halves of main bearings ( didn't pull crank all the way out).

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Something is fundamentally wrong.  Even the rear main was starved for oil.

The progressively get worse going towards the front.

This indicates extremely low oil flow. What distributor did you have in it?
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« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2015, 08:17:25 PM »
billet Mallory unilight.

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« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2015, 08:24:17 AM »
What SIZE line did you loop as if you were using a cooler? How many 90 degree fittings? You can dispense with the external line if you remove the internal bypass/safety valve under the oil filter screw on fitting. When we do the gen V and VI blocks we also "port" the area around the oil filter and pump/rear cap, to remove any sharp edges, and there are a lot of sharp edges there. In my opinion, a -8 line if there are any angle fittings, is marginal for the external line. If you don't remove the internal bypass valve and plug the external ports, you force all of the oil thru the small (about 1/4" or 5/16") hole in the bypass, AND the internal valve is set at 5-7 lbs. bypass causing a larger pressure drop also. We see more gen V and VI engines with oiling problems than all others put together. Other issues we have found are incompletely drilled passages that don't fully intersect, and many sharp edges near the pump and filter area. Due to what we have seen over the years, we port every oiling system in every engine we build. Even stock ones although we don't do many of those. Pistons are also cooled by the oil from underneath (this can act as the wall clearance is too tight), and not enough oil can also cause the pins to seize in the pistons ripping the tops off of them.  TIMINATOR
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« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2015, 10:40:32 AM »
One machine shop just told me to plug it, no mods to bypass. That one ran for 2 years.

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« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2015, 11:20:31 AM »
One machine shop just told me to plug it, no mods to bypass. That one ran for 2 years.

I believe you will need to remove the oil filter bypass valve and plug it before you can plug the oil cooler lines.  The Chevrolet Power book is vague on the Gen V oil cooler compared to the Mark IV.

The oil filter bypass valve looks like this http://m.summitracing.com/parts/ado-25013759 and is located under the filter.
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« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2015, 11:24:12 AM »
I got off active duty and am in college, so I can't afford to build another engine. But thanks for the pics. I've read it somewhere but did the loop instead. Damn, my jet boat season lasted 30 minutes

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« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2015, 11:27:54 AM »
Trnmator, I have some rods that aren't moving freely in the pistons.  The wrist pins are tight and requires me to hold the piston on the ground and use a more than minimal amount of force to move. Are they trash? My sbc forged setup from scat moves freely.

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« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2015, 01:13:41 PM »
Your loop looks to be -6, if so, its too small. -8 would be the BARE MINIMUM IMHO. Stuck pistons on pins is detonation, or lack of oil. The pins get lubed from throw off oil from the crank bearings, not enough at the crank, not enough at the pins. The shop that told you to just plug the holes is wrong. The bypass to the side of the filter boss is to bypass oil if the filter gets plugged, the one I told you to remove is under the oil filter hollow threaded tube, it is there if the cooler gets plugged. You remove it if you don't have an external cooler. In a car or low rpm stock type boat, if the clearances are loose because it was run in a car first for say 50k - 85,000 miles or more and it has a stock car (smaller than a boat) cam, it may work. But the oil pressure will be low at rpm. Sometimes you get lucky sometimes not. Usually high mileage gen V or VI transplanted car motors with the cooler lines plugged work until you add a cam, or carb/ intake manifold. We see those every season. Usually early in the season because the last owner blew the engine, installed a truck motor over the winter, and sold the boat early in the new season.  TIMINATOR
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« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2015, 06:02:13 PM »
Can you give me your number? I'd like to be able to talk to someone in person. Thing is bugging me.

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« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2015, 09:29:19 PM »
Timm at TUF-ENUF MARINE PERFORMANCE  623-877-8553  M-F 9-6 Sat 9-1 hope I can help  TIMINATOR
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« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2015, 11:15:47 PM »
Cool.  Thank you. I'll call in the a.m.

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« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2015, 08:05:44 AM »
I hope I answered all of your questions, except I forgot to mention your priming method is wrong. If you prime until oil runs from the rockers, you have washed all of the prelube from the bearings!!!
When pre lubing we use Clevite Bearing guard on everything, rocker arms pushrod ends too and timing chain (put that on with a brush and get every link and pivot lubed. When priming any V-8 or V-6 chevy you need to use a dummy distributor housing to seal the passenger oil galley or else you wont get any oil to that side of the lifter/cam area. But most importantly, over priming does nothing but wash all of the pre-lube from the bearings into the oil pan!!! Yes, I'm yelling again.
The proper way: If a flat tappet cam is used, mix the ZDDP additive(cam break-in additive) in a clean container thoroughly with all of the oil before putting it into the engine, otherwise the engine will start and run before the additive is mixed and thrown on the cam where it is needed. Non-detergent oil is best for cam break-in because the detergent "cleans" the ZDDP deposit off form the cam/ lifters reducing its effectiveness. Fill the crankcase, then prime the shaft with a small drill or speedwrench, we don't recommend using a big drill because it is more difficult for a newbie to feel what happens next. Start the drill, it will freewheel until the pump picks up prime (you can feel and hear when that happens), then it pulls down the drill again once the oil filter fills, then the galleys fill and the drill pulls down again. STOP HERE!!!  (yelling again). You only need the pump primed, the filter full, and the air out of the main galleys. Any more "priming" just washes the $65.00/ gallon pre-lube down into the pan. You already pre-lubed the rockers, pushrods and everything else while assembling the engine, it needs no more until oil pressure is attained. Even the Clevite rep has rethought his position on engine priming after our discussion. (See Engine Builder Magazine last year.) 
Just so you know, I am very introspective in our engine building, so much so that about 30 years ago we assembled an engine, pre-lubed it the recommended way of the day, then took the pan off to see if the pre-lube was still on the bearings, it wasn't, we did it again and again until we came up with how we continue do it now/still. Remember, the drill pulls down when pump is primed, then again when the filter is full, and then again when the galleys are full, stop there. For non-detergent oil, buy the cheap stuff, you will change it after cam break-in anyway. After the break-in we prefer Shell Rotella "T" diesel oil, it has a great additive package, near what racing oil has, and much cheaper. Its what we use in our race and go fast lake  engines.  TIMINATOR
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« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2015, 09:46:47 AM »
IMHO, rotating bearing assembly lube on rod, main and cam bearing surfaces is only there for preventing/limiting metal to metal contact while rotating the engine during assembly. I feel that it serves no other prepare beyond that.

Not bagging, just stating my personal opinion.

I use an oil primer and never worry about washing the assembly lube off the bearings. It will be virtually gone after the engine builds oil pressure anyway. Which should be after the second or third revolution of the crank.

I feel that the assembly lube topic has been completely over thought.

GT
« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 09:56:08 AM by GT Jets »
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« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2015, 09:48:35 AM »
After all,  if the engine has been incorrectly assembled, it will puke anyway. I don't care what or how much assembly lube is used.

Again JMO.

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« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2015, 01:43:25 PM »
Found a donor at the junk yard for 100 bones. Lucked out and it was rebuilt recently with .030 pistons (462). Found out my oil pickup was pretty much touching pan on the last motor. Swapped top end shit. Modded gen 5 oil system (I'll do a write up with pics) and modded Mellon g's hv oil pump. 85 psi now at 3500 rpm. 65-70 at idle all time now. Fixed the cooling or rather warming issue. Now idles at 185 degrees and goes to 145 at crossing speed. Headers come on at 1850.

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« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2015, 01:58:39 PM »
Found a donor at the junk yard for 100 bones. Lucked out and it was rebuilt recently with .030 pistons (462). Found out my oil pickup was pretty much touching pan on the last motor. Swapped top end shit. Modded gen 5 oil system (I'll do a write up with pics) and modded Mellon g's hv oil pump. 85 psi now at 3500 rpm. 65-70 at idle all time now. Fixed the cooling or rather warming issue. Now idles at 185 degrees and goes to 145 at crossing speed. Headers come on at 1850.

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Open the water a tad and drop to idle at about 160F. You don't want flash steam going on.

JMO, cool that you got her going so quickly.

GT
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Ray

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« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2015, 02:09:35 PM »
Will do. I'm on a lake close to my pad right now.

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« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2015, 12:07:12 AM »
"CLEVITE BEARING GUARD is specially formulated with an Extreme Pressure rating to provide proper lubrication for internal components during assembly, and for the first crucial moments of operation after start-up" as read from the label and advertising.
Does it work? Hell yes! On certain years of Honda 4 cyl engines there is an oil pressure port thru the block/deck and the head gasket up thru the head to lube the overhead cam assembly(cam, cam bearings, rocker arms, and valve stems.) The gasket is marked "UP FRONT", but it may be installed incorrectly, as everything else but that oil passage lines up correctly. We get about one of those "Garage Mechanics" per year that can't read, and install the gasket incorrectly.  Those incorrect installations usually run about one to two WEEKS without any other lube but the clevite pre-lube that we put on everything! The cam will subsequently sieze in the cam towers and break the timing belt. Expensively.
Trust anyone you wish to assemble your engine, and use whatever you or they like. Engine Builder Magazine and their Shop Tip panel side with me, not the "wash it off" crowd, as they previously did. I'm not gonna argue about it. TIMINATOR
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« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2015, 06:30:33 AM »
First off, I'm not arguing.

Second, never said break in lube did not work. I said once the oil pressure presents itself it is no longer necessary.  I was referring to the priming comments made previously. A quality assembly lube gets absorbed into the motor oil very quickly.

The lack of oil flow statement you made makes sense because the oil never washed it off. Common sense would dictate that if the Honda engine was properly primed and oil flow verified,  these failures would not have occurred.

Just a different approach to the same problem is all.

I am a "see it work" kind of guy. I hate leaving things to chance.

GT

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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

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« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2015, 06:41:30 AM »
Shameless plug.

I have been using the Amsoil assembly lube for a very long time. It's amazing stuff and does not attract the little annoying gnats we sometimes get in the fall. (I think they are called Walnut flies).

Lol

GT

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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

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« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2015, 06:49:51 AM »
Clevite bearings = Clevite Bearing Guard. JMHO   TIMINATOR
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