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454 breaking pistons

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1975_Challenger_461

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« on: June 13, 2015, 07:13:30 PM »
Need some help. 3rd engine same consequences. Gen v blocks (different blocks and stock bottom ends) same heads 049's. Had the heads checked and they were good. My problem is that the pistons skirts keep getting ripped out. I wasted my last block. Rebuilt this one last year but didn't get a chance to get it out. I did break it in for over an hour on the trailer, fluctuating rpm ' s and temp was at around 180-200. Reused cam as it checked out. Got the boat out today and ran fine for the first 30 min. We floated and went to get some more run time but it started knocking. Engine oil pressure always starts at around 45-50 psi but drops to 10 at idle when hot. My theory is that the cylinder walls are staying cold and the pistons expands thus the cylinder grabbing the piston. Third motor, last two did the same thing, broke piston skirts and left the head of the piston at the top. Always just honed out the cylinder and re-ringed stock pistons. It only knocks when in the water around 3500, never went above 4g's. Idled immediately to the trailer. Out of the water sounds fine. I don't get it. Oil has some metal in it but it is still clean and seems like a normal amount of break in debris. Installed a water pressure guage since the last one and it never made it past 10 psi. So are my cylinder walls staying too cold? Not running a thermostat, tee'd to motor then I have the normal header check valve at one output and the other goes straight out the he transom. Header mist comes on at 1850 rpm. No water in oil. Also, should I tear this engine apart now since it knocks under load? Timing is set at 10 degrees idle, running a Mallory unite setup and running 87 octane with a demon 850. Plugs look exactly as they should. Useless info, berk c bowl, stock in a challenger hull.

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1975_Challenger_461

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« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2015, 07:22:51 PM »
Also, I ran the first 454 with a vacuum secondary 750 for two years. Switched to demon and shit went down hill. I don't understand how the carb swap would cause this though.

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« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2015, 07:44:53 PM »
What are the piston to wall and rod and main oil clearances?...With a boat engine you definitely have to loosen things up a bit. Sounds like you have some sort of mechanical problem downstairs. I run piston to wall .006-.0065 and rods .003-.0032 and mains .003-.0035. Make sure the oil pump pick up isnít too close or too far away from the bottom of the pan. You say this is the third engine with these issues; you are missing something very important in the short block assembly. Sorry to hear of these problems, but unfortunately yes you have to tear down this engine and inspect everything and find the route cause of this problem. Iím thinking since this has happened before, it may have something to do with a part or a combo that just keeps getting transferred to the new engine, find out what. As for switching from a Holley to the demon, that is a separate issue, Iím my opinion, Iíd ditch the Demon and stick with just a Holley, I have seen Holleyís always make more power on the dynoís. Iíll speak to a good friend of mine that is another high performance engine builder and a boat fan about your problem; Iíll post something if he opens up any other possibilities. 
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« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2015, 08:21:10 PM »
Need some help. 3rd engine same consequences. Gen v blocks (different blocks and stock bottom ends) same heads 049's. Had the heads checked and they were good. My problem is that the pistons skirts keep getting ripped out.

Are you using the correct head gasket? The 049 is not a bolt and go on the gen V block.


I wasted my last block. Rebuilt this one last year but didn't get a chance to get it out. I did break it in for over an hour on the trailer, fluctuating rpm ' s and temp was at around 180-200. Reused cam as it checked out.

Why so damn hot?


Got the boat out today and ran fine for the first 30 min. We floated and went to get some more run time but it started knocking. Engine oil pressure always starts at around 45-50 psi but drops to 10 at idle when hot. My theory is that the cylinder walls are staying cold and the pistons expands thus the cylinder grabbing the piston.

What pistons? How was the block machined?


Third motor, last two did the same thing, broke piston skirts and left the head of the piston at the top. Always just honed out the cylinder and re-ringed stock pistons. It only knocks when in the water around 3500, never went above 4g's. Idled immediately to the trailer.

I think I'm missing a piece of something or other...

Out of the water sounds fine. I don't get it. Oil has some metal in it but it is still clean and seems like a normal amount of break in debris. Installed a water pressure guage since the last one and it never made it past 10 psi.


Too low IMHO

So are my cylinder walls staying too cold? Not running a thermostat, tee'd to motor then I have the normal header check valve at one output and the other goes straight out the he transom.

What is the inside diameter of the dump fitting?
Do you have a valve of some sort off the ump?

Header mist comes on at 1850 rpm. No water in oil. Also, should I tear this engine apart now since it knocks under load? Timing is set at 10 degrees idle, running a Mallory unite setup and running 87 octane with a demon 850. Plugs look exactly as they should. Useless info, berk c bowl, stock in a challenger hull.

Timing at idle is as irrelevant as the penis size of a tranny... What is it at 2,500? What do you have for a distributor?

Something is fundamentally wrong. Is 87 AKI the highest octane you can get in your area? Should be running 91 if available.

GT
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« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2015, 08:22:38 PM »
Also, I ran the first 454 with a vacuum secondary 750 for two years. Switched to demon and shit went down hill. I don't understand how the carb swap would cause this though.

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If its running lean it can heat things up to the point where they expand too much causing a hot seize. Do you have pictures of any old parts?

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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2015, 08:40:06 PM »
@ 86 Caribbean rod and main clearances were all around 3 thousandths. Never measured pistons as I put em in the same holes they came out but the cylinders measure 1 thousandth or less than stock after hone. I want to get rid of the demon. I may have it checked out to see wth is going on.

@gt, yes I know the heads don't just bolt on since the gen v cooling holes were enlarged. Felpro made a gasket (can't remember number off the top of my head) that is supposed to help this issue.

200 is not that hot but I tried to keep it around 180 on the trailer.

Stock pistons and no the block was not machined. Re-ringed and new bearings.

Agree that the oil pressure is too low. However, not low enough to cause damage. I work on diesels that have a by the book min of 5 psi. Not what I want though.

I do have a valve off the dump but it's wide open.  I didn't want to build pressure in the block especially with the 049/gen 5 combo. I know about the timing but I didn't get a chance to do it under load.

I don't want to run 91 basically for the $$$. Plus stock bottom ended 454 should have zero issues with this. Plus 3 points in the octane rating on a 9:1 engine is minimal at best.

I'll try to get pics of the old parts.

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« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2015, 08:42:42 PM »
1

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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2015, 08:46:17 PM »
2

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« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2015, 08:53:04 PM »
I apologize in advance, but putting on the dick hat....  :sly:


@ 86 Caribbean rod and main clearances were all around 3 thousandths. Never measured pistons as I put em in the same holes they came out but the cylinders measure 1 thousandth or less than stock after hone. I want to get rid of the demon. I may have it checked out to see wth is going on.

Should have been bigger than stock, but hey...

@gt, yes I know the heads don't just bolt on since the gen v cooling holes were enlarged. Felpro made a gasket (can't remember number off the top of my head) that is supposed to help this issue.

Yes, it is a gasket change, cool...

200 is not that hot but I tried to keep it around 180 on the trailer.

200įF might as well be a thousand on a jet boat... JMHO

Stock pistons and no the block was not machined. Re-ringed and new bearings.

I see no issues here. But the measurements are critical.

Agree that the oil pressure is too low. However, not low enough to cause damage. I work on diesels that have a by the book min of 5 psi. Not what I want though.

Low because of the clearance is one thing, what about the temp?

I do have a valve off the dump but it's wide open.  I didn't want to build pressure in the block especially with the 049/gen 5 combo. I know about the timing but I didn't get a chance to do it under load.

This is so fundamentally wrong I don't even know where to begin. NEVER install a valve on the dump...No reason to.

You should have a valve on the pump, this reduces the flow and the pressure, like magic.

You don't need a load on the engine to test the higher rpm timing.

I don't want to run 91 basically for the $$$. Plus stock bottom ended 454 should have zero issues with this. Plus 3 points in the octane rating on a 9:1 engine is minimal at best.

Unless your shit keeps blowing up. There are helpful additives in the higher octane fuel and the cost is minimal. I wouldn't run 87 in my lawnmower. I only buy 89 or 91.

Are you sure you don't have a piston slap your hearing?

Dick hat back on the shelf for now...  ;)


GT
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« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2015, 08:56:26 PM »
What is the deck height on this deal?

GT
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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2015, 08:58:37 PM »
You're good gt. Lol. You aren't being a dick bro. I appreciate the give it to me straight attitude. Plus I'm a marine, I can take verbal abuse and I know I don't know evetything. I'm an open book willing to learn.

I do have a gate valve on the intake as well. And you are right about the dump.

I guess I could have broken a skirt now. I have to pull it apart anyways so I'll find out tomorrow. If it was piston slap wouldn't it have been doing it from the beginning? Why did it start after 30 min of run time today, if that?

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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2015, 09:03:47 PM »
You're good gt. Lol. You aren't being a dick bro. I appreciate the give it to me straight attitude. Plus I'm a marine, I can take verbal abuse and I know I don't know evetything. I'm an open book willing to learn.

I do have a gate valve on the intake as well. And you are right about the dump.

I guess I could have broken a skirt now. I have to pull it apart anyways so I'll find out tomorrow. If it was piston slap wouldn't it have been doing it from the beginning? Why did it start after 30 min of run time today, if that?

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I'm thinking you are having cooling issues.  When the pistons get hot, they change shape, it may be this change of shape that is causing the issue, if the clearances are too large, it will shatter a piston. I assume cast pistons? You should really only go to a higher clearance on forged slugs. (but you never heard it form me LOL).

The question I want to know, why is the water temp 200įF? do you have the water valve on the pump throttled down? If you don't and it still ran that hot, something is off, big time.

Thank you for your service.....  :thumbup:

GT
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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2015, 09:08:48 PM »
That degree was on trailer via trying to adjust for hose pressure. At the lake, at idle, it's about 140. If I use any sort of throttle it drops to unreadably low on the gauge.

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« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2015, 09:08:55 PM »
You're welcome bro

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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2015, 09:12:43 PM »
That degree was on trailer via trying to adjust for hose pressure. At the lake, at idle, it's about 140. If I use any sort of throttle it drops to unreadably low on the gauge.

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OK, now were getting somewhere...

The water system needs to be reviewed. I feel that the dump fitting is a bit too large, by dropping it down a little (like 3/8" inside diameter) it should raise the WOT running temp and bring the water pressure up to about 20 PSI (still fine).. It will change the cut in point of the header water, but I don't think it will hurt anything.

When I have some time later I will put my thinking hat on and come up with a possible remedy.

GT

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« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2015, 09:12:51 PM »
Oh and the deck height is stock. The piston looks like it's out because the rod is no longer attached lmao

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« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2015, 09:15:51 PM »
I really appreciate your time and help. I was thinking that the expansion of the piston due to combustion heat vs the cylinder staying cool and contracted that it was closing the clearance thus grabbing the piston and either ripping out the bottom of the piston and or stretching the rod/cap.

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« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2015, 09:24:11 AM »
I read through the responses, at this time Iím leaning towards you just donít have enough piston to wall clearance. I worked for GM for many years as a heavy line technician and with them using hypereutectic pistons allowed them to run very close clearances. With you just using a stock short block and honing the cylinders to put a pattern on them and some fresh bearings just isnít enough in my opinion. Sounds like your rod and main clearances were fine but as your pistons want to expand from heat and not the cylinders from how cool a boat engine runs is your problem. Do you see a lot of vertical abrasions on the cyl. walls? In my opinion a block that has factory dimensions has to be properly machined and have the clearances for a marine purpose.
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« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2015, 03:28:23 PM »
GEN V and VI come with "Over-hyped-you-f***ed-me" Hypereuctetic) pistons. They are fine with a stock or low performance engine only, you can get away with them at a slightly elevated HP level if the cooling, clearances, timing and jetting are near perfect. More power, or any one or several of the issues mentioned and you break skirts first, then above that, the piston is gravel in the pan, and the pin and top of the rod make a big hole in the cylinder wall. Go forged if you want to make power, and find a machine shop that KNOWS BOAT MOTORS!!!(OK, this time I'm yelling). The number one problem we see at our shop is freshly built jet boat engines with cracked or shattered pistons, and usually after only a few outings, if cammed, manifolded and big headed. We have two in here now... 
Lets do a comparison of cast, hypers, and forged pistons on a scale of one to ten:
                     COST     and       STRENGTH

CAST                1                            1

Hypereuctetic    7                            2 or 3

FORGED           10                           10

Why pay the big bucks for something (hypers) that is only marginally stronger than cast? For a stock or near stock engine use cast, anything else, use forged. There was a very good HOTBOAT article about this subject, find it, read it, and post it. I can't, (legalities, I wrote it).
 
Hypers came out when the Federales mandated 50,000 mile mandantory smog compliance to the vehicles original owner. The factories needed a harder piston that wouldn't wear as much in the ring grooves or skirts, and could run at less clearance, all to help the smog deal. A large cast piston company knew that adding more Silica (sand) to the aluminum piston would make it harder, and they spent big bucks to conceive a way to take a normal cast (Hypo-euctetic) piston and add more sand than would normally stay in solution when cast. That's considered a Hyper-euctetic solution.
 Take a glass of iced tea (no sugar) and stir in sugar slowly until no more will dissolve into the tea, that's a Hypo-euctetic solution. If you add more sugar than it can hold at that temperature, the rest just goes to the bottom, and its still a Hypo-euctetic solution. If the temperature is raised in a very controlled manner and put in a preheated mold, JUST RIGHT, then the extra sand will stay in suspension and cast well. The extra sand makes the aluminum harder, that's what was wanted, but it also makes it more brittle, NOT what we want in a performance piston.
When GM first started putting the Hypers in all of their engines around the late 1990s (my brain is foggy about the date , not the facts) we R&R'ed at least 4 or 5 sets of them a WEEK for a local dealer, some with only "Black Death" (localized overheating and micro welding) on the skirts to siezed or exploded pistons and blocks that needed honing or replacing. We did those for about 2-4 years before they were all fixed or blocks replaced and honed as required. The rest of them were sold to old folks and peeps that babied their stuff until the wall clearances opened up. Many second owners got those babied cars/trucks and killed the pistons in the first weeks of ownership, and we did a lot of stockish motors. We always add at least .001 piston/ wall clearance minimum, and to this day do not install hypers unless its a stock or mild deal and we still add .001-.002 extra clearance depending upon the circumstances. We WILL NOT build a jet boat motor with Hypers at all for any reason. We are in Phoenix,AZ. and it gets to 110-115 here in the summer, we also do lots of motors for the Colorado River folks from Yuma to Laughlin where Summer temps will go to 120+.
Back to that harder piston deal, glass is made from Silica sand and is harder than a piston, but you wouldn't make a piston from it!  TIMINATOR
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« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2015, 06:09:27 PM »
Engine is apart. Seems to be an oiling issue. No damage to the top or skirt of the pistons. Also seeing excessive wear between skirt and cylinder wall. This engine maybe has an hour and a half on it. With most of that from idling on the trailer.

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« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2015, 06:33:23 PM »
Ok you showed the cylinder walls should have showed the piston skirts as well. It does look like galling tho!!


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« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2015, 07:19:53 PM »
Boom skirts.

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« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2015, 07:23:05 PM »
If those cylinders were honed, something is way the heck off. What rings are you using? Have you checked the end gaps?

Those bearings look like they were peeling.  Can you get a close picture of the worst one?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 07:54:01 PM by GT Jets »
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« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2015, 07:24:26 PM »
Your not getting any oil to the front of the motor bro.
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« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2015, 07:28:31 PM »
Did you use a new oil pump??? How was oil pressure???


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« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2015, 08:04:46 PM »
Might it have anything to do with the gen v oil cooling passages? I looped a braided line as if the external cooler was still there. Using a hamburger style pan, which contributes to the excessive oil heat. Yes new oil pump.

First pic is the worst two set of rods. The set on the left was where the knock was coming from as they are quite smashed.

Third pic is the worst two halves of main bearings ( didn't pull crank all the way out).

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« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2015, 08:08:14 PM »
Oil pressure was 45-50 in the beginning. Dropped to 10 at idle when hot. By the time it was near dock, idled back, it was at 5. Because of the increase in bearings clearances.

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« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2015, 08:10:07 PM »
Also, I always use a massive amount of assembly lube and always prime the engine until oil starts dribbling out of the rockers.

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« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2015, 08:11:06 PM »
Again, 3rd motor, same issues. Is it something I'm doing or not doing? I've built plenty of engines but can't get the ones in my boat to survive longer than a few runs out if that.

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« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2015, 08:12:56 PM »
Might it have anything to do with the gen v oil cooling passages? I looped a braided line as if the external cooler was still there. Using a hamburger style pan, which contributes to the excessive oil heat. Yes new oil pump.

First pic is the worst two set of rods. The set on the left was where the knock was coming from as they are quite smashed.

Third pic is the worst two halves of main bearings ( didn't pull crank all the way out).

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Something is fundamentally wrong.  Even the rear main was starved for oil.

The progressively get worse going towards the front.

This indicates extremely low oil flow. What distributor did you have in it?
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« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2015, 08:17:25 PM »
billet Mallory unilight.

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« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2015, 08:24:17 AM »
What SIZE line did you loop as if you were using a cooler? How many 90 degree fittings? You can dispense with the external line if you remove the internal bypass/safety valve under the oil filter screw on fitting. When we do the gen V and VI blocks we also "port" the area around the oil filter and pump/rear cap, to remove any sharp edges, and there are a lot of sharp edges there. In my opinion, a -8 line if there are any angle fittings, is marginal for the external line. If you don't remove the internal bypass valve and plug the external ports, you force all of the oil thru the small (about 1/4" or 5/16") hole in the bypass, AND the internal valve is set at 5-7 lbs. bypass causing a larger pressure drop also. We see more gen V and VI engines with oiling problems than all others put together. Other issues we have found are incompletely drilled passages that don't fully intersect, and many sharp edges near the pump and filter area. Due to what we have seen over the years, we port every oiling system in every engine we build. Even stock ones although we don't do many of those. Pistons are also cooled by the oil from underneath (this can act as the wall clearance is too tight), and not enough oil can also cause the pins to seize in the pistons ripping the tops off of them.  TIMINATOR
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« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2015, 10:40:32 AM »
One machine shop just told me to plug it, no mods to bypass. That one ran for 2 years.

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« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2015, 11:20:31 AM »
One machine shop just told me to plug it, no mods to bypass. That one ran for 2 years.

I believe you will need to remove the oil filter bypass valve and plug it before you can plug the oil cooler lines.  The Chevrolet Power book is vague on the Gen V oil cooler compared to the Mark IV.

The oil filter bypass valve looks like this http://m.summitracing.com/parts/ado-25013759 and is located under the filter.
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« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2015, 11:24:12 AM »
I got off active duty and am in college, so I can't afford to build another engine. But thanks for the pics. I've read it somewhere but did the loop instead. Damn, my jet boat season lasted 30 minutes

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« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2015, 11:27:54 AM »
Trnmator, I have some rods that aren't moving freely in the pistons.  The wrist pins are tight and requires me to hold the piston on the ground and use a more than minimal amount of force to move. Are they trash? My sbc forged setup from scat moves freely.

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« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2015, 01:13:41 PM »
Your loop looks to be -6, if so, its too small. -8 would be the BARE MINIMUM IMHO. Stuck pistons on pins is detonation, or lack of oil. The pins get lubed from throw off oil from the crank bearings, not enough at the crank, not enough at the pins. The shop that told you to just plug the holes is wrong. The bypass to the side of the filter boss is to bypass oil if the filter gets plugged, the one I told you to remove is under the oil filter hollow threaded tube, it is there if the cooler gets plugged. You remove it if you don't have an external cooler. In a car or low rpm stock type boat, if the clearances are loose because it was run in a car first for say 50k - 85,000 miles or more and it has a stock car (smaller than a boat) cam, it may work. But the oil pressure will be low at rpm. Sometimes you get lucky sometimes not. Usually high mileage gen V or VI transplanted car motors with the cooler lines plugged work until you add a cam, or carb/ intake manifold. We see those every season. Usually early in the season because the last owner blew the engine, installed a truck motor over the winter, and sold the boat early in the new season.  TIMINATOR
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« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2015, 06:02:13 PM »
Can you give me your number? I'd like to be able to talk to someone in person. Thing is bugging me.

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« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2015, 09:29:19 PM »
Timm at TUF-ENUF MARINE PERFORMANCE  623-877-8553  M-F 9-6 Sat 9-1 hope I can help  TIMINATOR
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« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2015, 11:15:47 PM »
Cool.  Thank you. I'll call in the a.m.

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« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2015, 08:05:44 AM »
I hope I answered all of your questions, except I forgot to mention your priming method is wrong. If you prime until oil runs from the rockers, you have washed all of the prelube from the bearings!!!
When pre lubing we use Clevite Bearing guard on everything, rocker arms pushrod ends too and timing chain (put that on with a brush and get every link and pivot lubed. When priming any V-8 or V-6 chevy you need to use a dummy distributor housing to seal the passenger oil galley or else you wont get any oil to that side of the lifter/cam area. But most importantly, over priming does nothing but wash all of the pre-lube from the bearings into the oil pan!!! Yes, I'm yelling again.
The proper way: If a flat tappet cam is used, mix the ZDDP additive(cam break-in additive) in a clean container thoroughly with all of the oil before putting it into the engine, otherwise the engine will start and run before the additive is mixed and thrown on the cam where it is needed. Non-detergent oil is best for cam break-in because the detergent "cleans" the ZDDP deposit off form the cam/ lifters reducing its effectiveness. Fill the crankcase, then prime the shaft with a small drill or speedwrench, we don't recommend using a big drill because it is more difficult for a newbie to feel what happens next. Start the drill, it will freewheel until the pump picks up prime (you can feel and hear when that happens), then it pulls down the drill again once the oil filter fills, then the galleys fill and the drill pulls down again. STOP HERE!!!  (yelling again). You only need the pump primed, the filter full, and the air out of the main galleys. Any more "priming" just washes the $65.00/ gallon pre-lube down into the pan. You already pre-lubed the rockers, pushrods and everything else while assembling the engine, it needs no more until oil pressure is attained. Even the Clevite rep has rethought his position on engine priming after our discussion. (See Engine Builder Magazine last year.) 
Just so you know, I am very introspective in our engine building, so much so that about 30 years ago we assembled an engine, pre-lubed it the recommended way of the day, then took the pan off to see if the pre-lube was still on the bearings, it wasn't, we did it again and again until we came up with how we continue do it now/still. Remember, the drill pulls down when pump is primed, then again when the filter is full, and then again when the galleys are full, stop there. For non-detergent oil, buy the cheap stuff, you will change it after cam break-in anyway. After the break-in we prefer Shell Rotella "T" diesel oil, it has a great additive package, near what racing oil has, and much cheaper. Its what we use in our race and go fast lake  engines.  TIMINATOR
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« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2015, 09:46:47 AM »
IMHO, rotating bearing assembly lube on rod, main and cam bearing surfaces is only there for preventing/limiting metal to metal contact while rotating the engine during assembly. I feel that it serves no other prepare beyond that.

Not bagging, just stating my personal opinion.

I use an oil primer and never worry about washing the assembly lube off the bearings. It will be virtually gone after the engine builds oil pressure anyway. Which should be after the second or third revolution of the crank.

I feel that the assembly lube topic has been completely over thought.

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« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 09:56:08 AM by GT Jets »
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« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2015, 09:48:35 AM »
After all,  if the engine has been incorrectly assembled, it will puke anyway. I don't care what or how much assembly lube is used.

Again JMO.

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« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2015, 01:43:25 PM »
Found a donor at the junk yard for 100 bones. Lucked out and it was rebuilt recently with .030 pistons (462). Found out my oil pickup was pretty much touching pan on the last motor. Swapped top end shit. Modded gen 5 oil system (I'll do a write up with pics) and modded Mellon g's hv oil pump. 85 psi now at 3500 rpm. 65-70 at idle all time now. Fixed the cooling or rather warming issue. Now idles at 185 degrees and goes to 145 at crossing speed. Headers come on at 1850.

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« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2015, 01:58:39 PM »
Found a donor at the junk yard for 100 bones. Lucked out and it was rebuilt recently with .030 pistons (462). Found out my oil pickup was pretty much touching pan on the last motor. Swapped top end shit. Modded gen 5 oil system (I'll do a write up with pics) and modded Mellon g's hv oil pump. 85 psi now at 3500 rpm. 65-70 at idle all time now. Fixed the cooling or rather warming issue. Now idles at 185 degrees and goes to 145 at crossing speed. Headers come on at 1850.

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Open the water a tad and drop to idle at about 160įF. You don't want flash steam going on.

JMO, cool that you got her going so quickly.

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« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2015, 02:09:35 PM »
Will do. I'm on a lake close to my pad right now.

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« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2015, 12:07:12 AM »
"CLEVITE BEARING GUARD is specially formulated with an Extreme Pressure rating to provide proper lubrication for internal components during assembly, and for the first crucial moments of operation after start-up" as read from the label and advertising.
Does it work? Hell yes! On certain years of Honda 4 cyl engines there is an oil pressure port thru the block/deck and the head gasket up thru the head to lube the overhead cam assembly(cam, cam bearings, rocker arms, and valve stems.) The gasket is marked "UP FRONT", but it may be installed incorrectly, as everything else but that oil passage lines up correctly. We get about one of those "Garage Mechanics" per year that can't read, and install the gasket incorrectly.  Those incorrect installations usually run about one to two WEEKS without any other lube but the clevite pre-lube that we put on everything! The cam will subsequently sieze in the cam towers and break the timing belt. Expensively.
Trust anyone you wish to assemble your engine, and use whatever you or they like. Engine Builder Magazine and their Shop Tip panel side with me, not the "wash it off" crowd, as they previously did. I'm not gonna argue about it. TIMINATOR
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« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2015, 06:30:33 AM »
First off, I'm not arguing.

Second, never said break in lube did not work. I said once the oil pressure presents itself it is no longer necessary.  I was referring to the priming comments made previously. A quality assembly lube gets absorbed into the motor oil very quickly.

The lack of oil flow statement you made makes sense because the oil never washed it off. Common sense would dictate that if the Honda engine was properly primed and oil flow verified,  these failures would not have occurred.

Just a different approach to the same problem is all.

I am a "see it work" kind of guy. I hate leaving things to chance.

GT

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« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2015, 06:41:30 AM »
Shameless plug.

I have been using the Amsoil assembly lube for a very long time. It's amazing stuff and does not attract the little annoying gnats we sometimes get in the fall. (I think they are called Walnut flies).

Lol

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« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2015, 06:49:51 AM »
Clevite bearings = Clevite Bearing Guard. JMHO   TIMINATOR
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« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2015, 07:09:22 AM »
Clevite bearings = Clevite Bearing Guard. JMHO   TIMINATOR

Lol.
FWIW, I doubt seriously it matters.

JMO

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TIMINATOR

  • Join Date: Mar 2007
  • Location: Avondale,AZ. 85392 (West Phoenix)
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« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2015, 11:34:03 PM »
I don't think it matters to most, what pre lube is used as long as its a quality product. Clevite bearings are what we use, and I figure nobody knows more about Clevite bearings than Clevite. We have preferences for everything, based on what has worked for us in the past.
Quality bearings, proper bearing clearances (quality machine work), cleanliness, lots of quality oil flow, good oil drain back, and a well designed windage tray are all part of the equation too. Each family of engines has its own quirks and needs, careful attention to detail is the most important factor in longevity. There is no need for everybody to do things my way, but for those needing direction, my way is as good as any place to start. TIMINATOR
TUFENUF MARINE PERFORMANCE  623-877-8553
COMPLETE ENGINE MACHINESHOP & PERFORMANCE
JET PUMPS!!!
PM or call me with JETTECH questions for HOTBOAT MAGAZINE!!  see them in the magazine!! OOPS! not anymore! HOTBOAT is boobs up! MODESTY IS A CRUTCH FOR THE INCOMPETENT!


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