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460 BOAT MOTOR

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78centurian

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« on: February 26, 2009, 04:29:55 PM »
WHATS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A BOAT MOTOR AND A CAR MOTOR?

MIGHT HAVE BEEN WHERE HE ONE I GOT WENT WRONG....IS THERE A THREAD EXPLAINING THIS?


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Brad @ SCJB

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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2009, 04:33:21 PM »
there is no difference other then clearances......a marine motor will tend to drive in higher rpm ranges due to it not having a transmission like a car....so you want more clearances to allow for this.
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
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78centurian

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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2009, 04:36:47 PM »
WHAT ARE THE CLEARENCES?

I GOTTA EITHER GO THROUGH MY MOTOR AGAIN OR BUILD ANOTHER ONE....TOASTED THE ONE I GOT

Brad @ SCJB

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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2009, 04:40:06 PM »
I dont know a lot of the details as im not much of a motor guy...thats all i know.

give Dave aka enginedoctor a call over at A & D Engines http://www.aanddengines.com/ ...he can help you out with going through with what you have and what you need done to get the motor back on the water!
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
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78centurian

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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2009, 04:43:46 PM »
THANKS BRO APPERICATE IT....I HAVE ANOTHER BUT IN NEEDS TO BE GONE THROUGH....WANT TO MAKE SURE IT RIGHT THIS TIME

LBsuperjet

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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2009, 04:49:49 PM »
if i recall, the biggest deal would be the clearances between the piston rings and the cylindar, and maybe even the crank bearing clearances, thats all i know ???

reid

Nice boat is nice!


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Brad @ SCJB

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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2009, 04:50:10 PM »
THANKS BRO APPERICATE IT....I HAVE ANOTHER BUT IN NEEDS TO BE GONE THROUGH....WANT TO MAKE SURE IT RIGHT THIS TIME

then Dave at A&D is your guy.....hes in La Habra off the 57 and Imperial
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IRRebel

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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2009, 05:15:07 PM »
X2 guys. But from what I understand, Marine blocks had their own casting designation, D1VE, I could easlily be wrong. As far as what makes it different than a street block, couldn't tell you. But I have 3 of those casting codes. Hopefully someone will chime in with that they mean.

Ray
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit what a ride!"---Crewcheif22 AKA Keith

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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2009, 05:46:44 PM »
X2 guys. But from what I understand, Marine blocks had their own casting designation, D1VE, I could easlily be wrong. As far as what makes it different than a street block, couldn't tell you. But I have 3 of those casting codes. Hopefully someone will chime in with that they mean.

Ray

Block doesnt matter.  Its the tolerances that do matter.  Piston ring gap, piston to cylinder wall clearance and main bearing clearances are the ones to worry about.

If you dont have enough ring gap you will break the lands on your pistons.

You need correct cylinder clearance because the piston expands in the cylinder and needs the room to grow when it gets hot.

Did I get this right?!
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 05:51:30 PM by ryanbrindle »
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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2009, 05:54:42 PM »
You can make virtually any engine a marine engine, FWIW most of the motors we have in our jetboats are more car than boat...

The biggest difference from a performance standpoint are; forged pistions (preffered but certainly not required), 112* lobe center camshaft to help minimize exhaust pulse, mechanical advance or electronic equivelant, looser piston to cylinder clearances, better oiling system and windage control, marine gaskets (due to the lack of antifreeze).

From a physical standpoint; Brass freeze plugs (AKA Welsch plugs), Marine accessories ie. starter, carb, fuel pump, alternator, distributor.  

Like I said though, the motor in my jet could almost literally get bolted into a Camaro with out major consequences...

GT
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2009, 05:55:33 PM »
 This must be a joke? Rayanbrindle back in town still waiting for you to call me back?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 06:00:20 PM by boost »

IRRebel

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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2009, 05:57:00 PM »
'tis true, but cast pistons expand much more than say, forged. The HE pistons? haven't figured out yet why they exist, honestly. A lot depends on what your gonna build it with. Work with your machine shop if they're capable.

Ray
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit what a ride!"---Crewcheif22 AKA Keith

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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2009, 06:08:27 PM »
just to add, clearances yes but why ??? the jet boat uses an open cooling system so the block does not expand the same way as it would if it was in a car at 190* but, all the internals do. So more cyl to wall clearance is needed. as well as the ring gap. i think you asked how much, always good to follow the piston manufactures recommendation, should be around .004-.006
general rule of thumb for bearing clearances is for every inch of journal you need .001 clearance. so 3 inch journal .003 clearance. weight of oil will also dictate your clearance as well
This must be a joke? Rayanbrindle back in town still waiting for you to call me back?
x2

been talking with dave at http://www.aanddengines.com/ for the past couple of days and like what i hear.

ford did not make a specific marine block, dont know about the other manufactures

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« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2009, 06:50:07 PM »
thanks for all the info fellows

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« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2009, 07:12:52 PM »
Thank's Brad/Ralph/Omar..  X 2...

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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2009, 07:34:19 PM »
ford block info from the 460 website
Ford Production 460 Block Differences

Courtesy of Paul Kane

The available production cast iron block casting numbers are C8VE-A, C9VE-A, D0VE-A, D1VE-("xxx") and D9TE-AB.

I like to refer to all but the D9TE as the "early-style" blocks. The D9TE casting arrived in the 1979 model year and was utilized until the end of 460 production ( to 1996).

For the most part, all blocks and rotating asemblies are interchangable between all blocks except the D9TE. A D9TE rotating assembly will fit into an early-style block, but the opposite is not true.

All 429/460 Fords are internally balanced engines except for the D9TE 460, which is externally balanced.

These block identifying marks (D1VE, etc.) are not actual casting numbers but are engineering revisions that are cast into the block castings themselves. And they are what we enthusiasts refer to when identifying our factory iron, as they give not so much the year that the block was made but rather the revision of the block as specified by said engineering revision. (Actual date code is in the lifter valley.)

Early-Style Blocks: For the most part (and with small exception), the C8VE, C9VE and D1VE blocks are all essentially the same configuration casting with the thinner main webs. The thicker main web block is the D0VE block, which may or may not have 4-bolt main caps on 2,3 & 4. (Very few D1VE blocks may be thick webbed.) All Ford production 385 blocks can be decked as needed, so this is a non-issue detail.

D9TE Blocks: The externally balanced rotating assembly utilizes a crankshaft that has slightly smaller counterweights. This was done to so that the cylinders of the D9TE block could be extended about .1875" deeper towards the crankcase. I believe the cylinders were lengthened in the D9TE block because this block was revised to double as a big equipment truck block, and the dump truck rotating assemblies consisted of a very deep skirt piston that benefitted from the extended cylinder walls for support.

The deeper cylinders of the D9TE blocks are the reason that the early-style, internally balanced rotating assemblies will not fit (internal balance crank throws will not clear D9TE cylinders).

Since most prefer to use internally balanced rotating asembies in the performance applicaton, we usually opt for any block except the D9TE. There are also advantages to specific blocks within the group of early-style blocks, such as the D0VE-A's thick main webs...

Further, the D9TE block was presumed to be a lightweight ("late model") casting and therefore not very strong and also limited in it's overbore capability. But this belief is currently being re-evaluated for a couple of reasons:

1) No-one had yet evaluated D9TE cylinder wall thickness with a sonic checker, and preliminary testing suggests the block may not be so bad afterall.

2) Strokers have become popular and the D9TE's deeper cylinders offer more support for the increased-stroke rotating assemlies.

3) Most all aftermarket stroker kits use a crank with the dimensions of the externally balanced crank and so they fit the D9TE block as well as the early blocks.

Block Summit

Courtesy of Dave McLain

Here is a list of different blocks with weights and cylinder wall thicknesses:

http://misn.com/~frd460/blocksummit.html

If you have trouble finding the page, just use www.mclainsautomotive.com there is a link on the homepage to the block summit page.

Block Weights

2-bolt D9TE-AB 4.36 bore = 229 lbs

2-bolt D9TE-A2 4.39 bore = 221 lbs

2-bolt C8VE 4.36 bore = 206 lbs

2-bolt C9VE-B 4.36 bore = 210 lbs

2-bolt D1VE-A2B 4.36 bore = 223 lbs

2-bolt D1VE-A2B 4.39 bore filled = 245 lbs

2-bolt D0VE 4.36 bore = 219 lbs

2-bolt D0VE 4.440 bore = 204 lbs

4-bolt D0VE-A block = 221 lbs

A460 block, factory rough undersize bore = 302 lbs

A460 block, 4.473" bore, roller cam brgs = 265 lbs

A460 block, 4.625" bore, roller cam brgs, unfilled with caps = 255 lbs

A460 block, 4.634" bore, roller cam brgs, filled to deck with caps = 268 lbs

Screw In Block (Freeze) Plugs

Courtesy of Damon Sea

385 Series engines use 1 1/4 - 11 1/2 Pipe Plug. You can pick these up at any hardware stores.

Ford FE Series Engines use 1 1/2 - 11 1/2 Pipe Plug.

One will need to get the appropriate quality tap for the block and take it SLOW. I suggest mounting the block upside down on a level surface and go SLOW!! using lots of lube. A good tip is to measure the distance from the block to the cylinder wall and then mark or place some tape on the tap so you don't interfere with the cylinder walls. Don't go too deep or your plug will be recessed into the block. AND TAKE IT SLOW!!

IDT Block Info

Courtesy of Jay

Difference in block castings and machining:

Premier vs. Ultra

The Premier and the Ultra use the same block casting and machining. If the main bearing caps were removed from both the Premier and Ultra blocks then would look the same. The main caps on the Premier blocks are of 8620 billet steel. Also, the Premier uses chrome moly studs and bolts. The Ultra uses cast Nodular caps with a standard grade 8 fastener. The cam bearing bores on both the Ultra and Premier are machined to accept a roller cam bearing (2.500" diameter). The as supplied bore diameter is slightly uder 4.500".

Premier vs. Sportsman HP

The block castings are different. The lifter valley is the most noticable change. The Sportsman HP has a production looking lifter valley. The Premier has a "beefer" lifter valley that includes the possibility of moving lifters locations. Also, the Premier has a siamesed water jacket which allows for a maximum bore of 4.700". The Sportsman HP block has a water thru water jacket that allow water to pass between the bores. The maximum bore capability is 4.500". The difference between the water jackets and the lifter valley is the primary difference in weight between the two blocks. Also, the main bearing caps and fasteners that are used in the Ultra block are used in the Sportsman HP. The cam bearing bores on the Sportsman HP is machined to accept the standard Ford cam bearing (2.250"). The as supplied bore diameter is slightly under 4.360".

Total Engine Weight

Courtesy of Phil

I just weighed my 545 today. Set up as follows it weighed 573lbs. 545 with canton main girdle,new style scj aluminum heads,edelbrock alu water pump,victor intake with dominator carb,older starter,gm 1 wire 55amp alternator,stock ford elec dist,stock type valve covers,stock flex plate. I have a rather small homemade alt bracket that doesn't weigh much. Hope this info will help some of the folks.
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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2009, 07:40:34 PM »
 Great info,dam printer doesn't work :mad: 

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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2009, 07:43:24 PM »
Great info,dam printer doesn't work :mad: 
no worries its here now and on the 460 site so its safe ;)

CHEAP, FAST, RELIABLE...PICK 2 CANT HAVE ALL 3
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They are all fukin tasty. My long time favorite, "Dirty Dicks -beerjet-
Glasscutter, Skip, OC2  Nordie and many more nail me good every time, relentlessly, I love those guys!

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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2009, 07:45:09 PM »
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
  • Boat #2: 1982 Eliminator Sprint

ryanbrindle

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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2009, 10:14:13 PM »
This must be a joke? Rayanbrindle back in town still waiting for you to call me back?

Sorry for the thread jack but chances are that i wont call you back because you were acting flakey on the deal and i didnt want to waste my time and money towing a boat from az to cali for you to back down on the deal.  sorry if it hurt your feelings.

Ralph, didnt know i owed you a call man.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 10:22:28 PM by ryanbrindle »
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BOOST

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« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2009, 10:19:05 PM »
Sorry for the thread jack but chances are that i wont call you back because you were acting flakey on the deal and i didnt want to waste my time and money towing a boat from az to cali for you to back down on the deal.  sorry if it hurt your feelings.
No feelings hurt I told you I was out of town and it was hard for me to do something that weekend but i was trying left you some messages no answer .DONE
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 10:25:24 PM by boost »

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« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2009, 06:49:27 AM »
you were acting flakey on the deal

Hmmmmmm, kind of like flaking on Tony with the exhaust log?  ???
"Don't you realize that there are already enough people in the world to hate without you putting so much effort into giving me another?"

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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2009, 06:51:35 AM »
i know we are all excited to see ryan back, but please use the pm function or start a new thread as to not go off topic here.
thanks ralph

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They are all fukin tasty. My long time favorite, "Dirty Dicks -beerjet-
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« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2009, 09:18:22 AM »
Hmmm... surprised he's still a member  ???

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« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2009, 12:52:49 PM »
WHATS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A BOAT MOTOR AND A CAR MOTOR?

MIGHT HAVE BEEN WHERE HE ONE I GOT WENT WRONG....IS THERE A THREAD EXPLAINING THIS?
For the most part an engine being set up by the manufacturer for marine use, such as for a jet boat, would be set up as a "severe duty" OEM build. The Ford 460 Marine engines essentially use OEM parts just like the passenger car engines, so a passenger car engne is perfectly usable, if that's what you are asking.

That being said, Ford did build their 460 Marine engines to a slightly different spec than their 460 passenger car/light truck engnes. For example:

The Harman Marine 460 that came in the thousands of boats came with front sump Cobra Jet oil pans, pass car dished cast pistons (the mid-1980's 460 King Cobra had TRW forged flat tops), heads were usually non-thermactor D3VE's with different valve springs and retainers, and the addition of spring cups, heavy duty truck rods (essentially Cobra Jet rods), the Super Cobra Jet intake with a post-70 date code, Super Cobra jet camshaft, and usually fully grooved main bearings.

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