460 marine engine builds

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electrowoman

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« on: March 07, 2009, 03:03:28 AM »
I didn't want to butt into the other threads again so here's a new one. 

My question is this:

1.  What is your description of a  "Ford marine engine"

I ask this because some marine engines see civil duty around 4500 RPM's max as my CV 23 did for
years.

The surfboard crowd with the jet pack strapped to thier backs probably run 6500 plus RPM's

I'm just trying to point out the WIDE definition of a Ford Marine Engine.  You don't need forged parts in a 4500 rpm engine but you sure as heck better if you're running 6000.

I don't think we should automatically steer people to high dollar parts till we know what they intend to do with their engine.    While forged is always better it's not always necessary.

Let's not scare someone to death without good reason.   $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Opinions?   

Oh and one other thing!   It was 65 degrees here in PA today!  There is only about 30 yards of ice left at the boat ramp.  Summer is a comming   ;D




GT Jets

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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2009, 10:32:28 AM »
I consider a ford marine engine a marinized automotive type deal, brass freeze plugs (called Welsch plugs), marine gaskets, proper machine work, marine bumpstick (aka Cam), good quality timing set (Ford used nylon gears for decades, big no no), and of course marine accesories like the carb, starter fuel pump and alternator.

Now a high performance Ford marine motor is a different animal all together.

The problem is, if you don't know what mods you're going to do later... i.e., bigger carb, bigger cam, different ignition system, intake manifold, pump rebuild, I think building it bullet proof to begin with is a good way to go if you have the scratch, otherwise you could see yourself building it twice, which no matter what components you used to build it costs more...

Depends on if you truely see youself leaving well enough alone, I have never had the self control... >:D

edit:
Also gotta take in the possibility of overreving the engine do to piss poor driving skills and ventelating the pump..That will shorten a stockers life to nothing..
GT
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 10:36:01 AM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

electrowoman

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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 01:24:05 AM »
Great post GT.  Well stated.

We used stock 460 short blocks + (marine cam) for years in our boats till we stepped up performance around 1990.  We would pick up a used short block for $50 or so, cook, it hone, it ring,   and bearing it and run it for about 5 years.   There were 3 of us running 460's back then.

Our lake is pretty calm and staying in the water was not much of an issue. 
I would consider losing suction like missing a gear.  Not certain death but not good for sure.

I just think we need to identify balls to the walls versus good cruiser engine parts.
Grade A balls to the walls being 4 bolt main block, forged crank,  H beam rods and forged pistons....

Cruiser grade  cast crank, hyper or cast pistons, stock rods with ARP bolts.

This is just my 2 cents.   The cost differance would be night and day and may help save a marriage  ;D

Give a new jet boater the parts list for the balls to the walls and he'll be selling it not fixing it.

What do you think?


Stevecat

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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 08:01:50 AM »
Yeah I am glad you started this post too. I was going to start one where I asked the questions:

If I am a budget boater and have $1000 to put into/on my motor, what are the recommendations?

If I have $2500?

My definition of a budget boater is he/she wants reliable performance. I/we want to take those workhorse "marine" motors that came in our 70's boats new and give that iron some of the knowledge that has been gained over the past 30+ years.

I love reading about the $15k race motors here on SCJB, but I gotta think 50% of us don't have the scratch to pull it off.
Boatless
The older I get, the better I was.

electrowoman

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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 09:09:23 PM »
I didn't think I was alone in thinking that way.   I had a touch over $5000 in the engine I built last year and that was doing all the work in house but the machine work.   

It doesn't take long to add up and scare the life out of someone does it?

Maybe we should have classifications:

1.  Get there and back   :)

2.  Have some fun along the way   ;D

3.  You ain't gonna beat me sucka   :mad:

This could lead to a whole new way of defining a "Marine engine"   or not   ;)


GT Jets

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« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2009, 09:23:07 PM »
I am a redneck when it comes to true performance crap, I have had some good running stockers and some 7,000 RPM screamers, the difference between me and the full blown race guys is the amount of money I don't spend.

I have built what my family has grown to call "Grenade Motors", nothing wrong with them, just that all of the parts are used (with the exeption of cams, gaskets and odds and ends, but as far as cranks, pistons, rods, rockers, heads, valves and whatever else I can pick up for free or close to it. I am not too proud to do some dumpster diving every once in a while, I have never been nor will I ever be wealthy, does not mean you cannot have quality.

With the internet these days brings the ability to get any piece of info. for any aftermarket or performance factory part out there, so finding the right part is a piece of cheese if you think about what your trying to do before hand..

I am going to a Good Guys swap meet at the end of the month, I call it shopping.

One mans junk is another mans Hot Rod in kit form    ;D

The last two motors I built were from a large amount of parts I had in storage for years (like 10), if I had to go buy all of those high perf. parts I would easily have $7k-$10k in a big Chevy making the same power...

It just takes a little longer to get em built  :sly:

I always overbuild everything, always had, its weird, I hear the smallest little noise and I want to lay it all over the garage floor, I think I have a problem :screwy: :screwy:


GT
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

electrowoman

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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2009, 10:29:18 PM »
You're not a redneck,  you're a motor head.   It sounds like a dam good one  ;D

IRRebel

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« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2009, 10:36:54 PM »
Quote
With the internet these days brings the ability to get any piece of info. for any aftermarket or performance factory part out there, so finding the right part is a piece of cheese if you think about what your trying to do before hand..

I am going to a Good Guys swap meet at the end of the month, I call it shopping.

One mans junk is another mans Hot Rod in kit form   


That is what Jet Boating is all about these days, no??

You're a man after my own heart, GT, sweety,  and exactly why I probably fell into this, or these, projects (The yellow submarine is next........)

I've gotten more bargain parts and donations that probably total, in themselves, thousands of dollars at retail. Yeah, I've put a few thousand more into this thing, but I'm going to get more that that out of it in enjoyment.

i also agree on over building for future testosterone levels. It's the only reasonable thing to do.

Ray
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit what a ride!"---Crewcheif22 AKA Keith

bertus

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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2009, 05:58:42 PM »
Let me just start with "I dont know anything about building motors".  With that said, with the 460 how do you know if it is the 8.0 or 7.5?  Where do you guys find all the high perf. parts for them (tunnel rams, high flow carbs, headers, etc.)? I tried summit but couldnt find too much.  maybe I just didnt know what to look for. 

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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2009, 06:05:24 PM »
Let me just start with "I dont know anything about building motors".  With that said, with the 460 how do you know if it is the 8.0 or 7.5?  Where do you guys find all the high perf. parts for them (tunnel rams, high flow carbs, headers, etc.)? I tried summit but couldnt find too much.  maybe I just didnt know what to look for. 
the 2 bbf are 429/460 and what is it that you are looking for parts wise. alot of us have stuff laying around or know people who do

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« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2009, 06:08:22 PM »
well i just bought a 78 crusader with a 460 in it.  when i went onto summit they had the 460 but said there was a 7.5ltr & 8.0ltr.  I was looking for any high perf parts for it in general.  Right now it is pretty stock

electrowoman

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« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2009, 06:24:09 PM »
Which class are you in?  See post above.

Is cruising and trouble free boating most important or top speed?

Do you want to run regular gas or are you willing to go for premium?

Do you want some economy or just balls to the walls goooooo?

This will require 3 different size bank accounts.....

Could you post some pictures and let us know what you have now?   
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 06:26:27 PM by electrowoman »

bertus

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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2009, 06:28:30 PM »
im picking it up on tuesday and will take and post pics of the boat and motor then.  i think i would consider myself to be in the middle class.  ultimately reliability is most crucial to me, however i would like it to be mildly modded.

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« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2009, 06:42:23 PM »
I guess first and foremost since the motor has an engine cover i should probably take some measurements and see what i am able to do.

GT Jets

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« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2009, 07:12:43 PM »
I guess first and foremost since the motor has an engine cover i should probably take some measurements and see what i am able to do.

That, and see how she runs and find out if it "turns your crank" so to speak, there is absolutely nothing wrong with stock stuff, you would be talking in the 330 HP range and reliability is its middle name, with a bunch of bolt ons, without going through and building a tougher bottom end and the necissary oil mods (ie pan) you could easily get it to 350-360HP, turn it to under 5K and use it til it dies.... ;)

I built my second boat to the baddest I could afford, then just started breaking a bunch of stuff (11.5:1 468 Chevy w/circle racing camshaft and tons of bolt ons) that cost more than the engine to fix...Read: stainless impeller from aluminum and a bunch of pump mods...

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

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« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2009, 07:31:05 PM »
thank you for the info.  i will be taking your advise and run it first and see if i am happy with it.  The last boat i had, had an outboard motor so jetboats are fairly odd to me still.  i had a jet boat with a 455 but burnt up the motor and sold it.  I am just worried to have the same problem with this boat.  its a 20.5ft closed bow so hopefully it will get going fairly fast.  The outboard motor ran at 50mph with a merc 115 on a 17ft.  i would be happy going the same speed.  however if it is slower knowing myself i will be on the market for some bolt on mods soon.

electrowoman

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« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2009, 01:08:47 PM »
My experiance with the stock 460 is they are really tough.   The only thing I broke on one was a piston.  The top lifted off just above the wrist pin. 

One other engine had a Crane cam break into 3 pieces, never saw that befor or since.  The cam came right out.  No sign of any oil issue anywhere in the motor, just a dead cam and destroyed lower end from the cam section being caught by a rod against the side of the block.

With the 429, I noticed no differance in the two engines HP or rpm wise,  the weak point was the connecting rods.  One let go right above the crank.

 I never had a problem with the stock pedistal valve train while running to 4500 rpms with comp cams springs and cam.  I now run Edelbrock heads with stud and roller rockers as we are pushing 5100 rpms.

My advise is to put in a nice set of rods and pistons and build for the power you want from there.

I would never run stock rods or pistons again.   

I've been running this boat since 1977

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« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2009, 05:29:39 AM »
the factory internals are vary strong...but...with the amount of load in a jet boat, an upgrade is worth the money.  i do believe your motor is all fresh right...also...how big is your boat?  the bigger the boat the more balls you motor must have.  i have a 19ft hallett and to be in the class i want to be in(one step higher than balls to the walls) i have prepared to spend the money needed. 

if you want a medium grade fun toy, i would leave the block alone for now.  step up the cam and do roller rockers.  get a better intake manifold.  like a torker 2 or something.  a tunnel ram is great for high rpm power.  i am thinking you want power from 1500-4200.  there really is no right or wrong.  its what will work for you. 

im in my engine about 4k and have a little way to go still.  but its gonna be one mean 521 ford that started from what you got.  just because its not the best now doesnt mean you cant make improvements later on in life.  my engine's opporating range is 2400-6200.  in a 19ft boat with a berk and aa stainless impeller.  im gonna be pushing 650hp.  should be a solid 80mph.  maybe faster after i blueprint the hull and "tweak" some things. 

best advise: get it running and enjoy.  i like working on things but there comes a time i want to enjoy it.  hopefully soon!

pic is the motor i have the way it came in my hondo.  no more yellow.  i paid 950 for the whole boat, yanked the motor and tanks then sold the hull and trailer for 1200.  i think i made out ok.
"i don't think its supposed to do that"

bertus

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« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2009, 09:05:40 PM »
Definatly not bad...lol. 

 


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