Alcohol vs. Gas

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hotrod56cars

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« on: May 08, 2008, 07:48:20 PM »
I need to make a decision and stick with it and incorparate my decision into my plan. I'm debateing (sp?) on whether or not to run alcohol, E85, or race gas in my jet boat. I'm trying to consider safety, HP, fuel consumption, and cost. I really don't care if I have to bring extra fuel with me on my trips to the water.

When alcohol burns I've been told there aren't any visible flames, I'm not sure if I like that idea for my (hopefully) fast lake boat. I think running alcohol gets more HP but I have no idea how much more HP. Alcohol engines, I've read, use 30 - 60% more fuel. I don't want to drive to the sandbar and immediately have to turn around and head back because the boat's running out of fuel. I'm also not expecting to drive my boat for hours and hours of play. I can get more fuel in the boat by switching tanks but there has to be a point where it isn't cost effective, fuel is heavy. I have no idea how much alcohol fuel costs.

With E85 there is 15% gasoline in it so at least I should know if some of it is on fire. I have no idea if running E85 makes more HP. With E85 I've read that fuel consumption goes up 30 - 50%. E85 is the least expensive fuel that I know of, about $3 a gallon.

Lastly is race gas. Definately produces smoke when it's on fire. Fuel consumption is less than alcohol or E85. Cost of the fuel is $6 a gallon minimum. I believe that it makes the least HP compared to the other 2 types of fuels mentioned, but I really don't know for sure.


I need some advice/input from people that have the answers on different types of fuels, I know there are a few people on here that run or have run alcohol, and if the advice/input has with fast lake jet boats in mind it's even better. Thanks!








A couple of side notes:
I did talk with TIMINATOR on the phone for quite some time on the subject and his answer was definately race gas.
I typed in the word "alcohol" on SoCal's search bar and there are far too many topics with alcohol in them.  >:D
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Luckie Stiff

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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2008, 07:57:32 PM »
Rod-

Better check your race gas prices, last barrel I bought (march 08) was $50.84 for 5 gallons. Methanol and E85 and E95 race blends are a little bit pricier.  If I was you, and I'm not, I'd set the fu*ker up to run on good old fashioned pump gas, maybe do a 50/50 mix, but any type of race fuel is going to kill you financially. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Skip

Oh yeah, PM me your mailing address please
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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2008, 08:00:32 PM »
These guys sell Torco


Name: Helix Motorsports
Phone: (619)-670-1055
Contact Person: Michael Bolden
2650 Jamacha Rd. Ste.147-306
El Cajon, CA 92019
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hotrod56cars

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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2008, 08:03:59 PM »
I'm using a price that I got from a friend who recently went to Yuma and said it's like $5.85 a gallon for 110 at the pump. Last time I looked, several months ago, E85 was like $2.95 a gallon at the pump. A pump gas deal or mixture thereof is out of the question. Stay on topic!   :D
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« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2008, 08:10:50 PM »
Well at 5.85 a gallon, I'd be willing to bet your boat will sit more than run, and there's no comparing 110 to E85, they're not even in the same species, oh yeah, E85 is about 35% less efficient than petroleum based fuel so the savings per gallon go out the window if you do the math.
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2008, 08:44:07 PM »
I have seen some pretty impressive numbers from really big cubic inch motors that run on 87 octane.  Similar to blown big blocks in the 450 cu in range.  I wouldn't build anything that needs exotic fuel because I think it would really limit how much I got to be out on the water.  I'm not really a "sit at the sand bar all day" kinda guy.  There are a couple lakes local to you, do you think you would go out for the day if you were gonna spend $150-200 just for fuel.  Heck if you didn't use it all you would feel guilty letting it sit around in the tanks waiting for the one big holiday weekend when you feel you can afford to go to the river.  Gotta figure in the fun per $ ratio in everything.
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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2008, 08:50:37 PM »
I goota say Rod.... I have to agree with Skip and the others say to run on pump gas. What kind of MPH are you looking for? I have seen and been in plenty of boat that do 80+ on pump gas. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Bob

the jet boat never did this to you bob ::)
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« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2008, 09:03:58 PM »
what is everyones opinion of av gas or an av and super mix??
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2008, 09:05:59 PM »
With alcohol you burn twice as much fuel. I get it for around $3.90 a gallon in 55 gallon drum. You are correct about the invisible flame it sucks. If the boat is gonna make some hard runs and go back on the trailer then no biggie but for a lake boat no bueno.

 We have used airplane fuel mixed 50/50 Premium Chevron or whatever with great results. Don't know how easy airplane fuel is to get anymore.

What compression are you running???

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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2008, 09:15:22 PM »
it is easily available in phoenix, but its 5.35 a gal.
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2008, 09:20:56 PM »
This is pretty much the way I thought the thread would go.  ::)

I don't have a 632 BBC so the low compression big cu. in deal ain't working for me. I have a 13:1, 468 BBC, dry headers, a big roller cam, and for all intents and purposes of this thread a MFI stack system. I'm looking for the best compromise between safety, efficiency, cost, and HP between 3 different types of fuels. What mph/HP am I looking for? Maximum amount that I can get with my current engine configuration without going through 22 gallons of fuel in a hour. I don't need to hear, in this thread, about blowers, Holley's,  ;D  , etc... I'm looking for a fast lake boat that goes to the river twice a year and goes to the lake twice a year. If I want to go to the lake or river with the family, pull tubes and crap, I have a boat for that. This thread isn't about that boat.  :D
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2008, 09:25:55 PM »
I will ask Dale (Hondo Boats) tomorrow. He literally has 3 of your motors just sitting in his shop, next to 5 blower motors,next to 5 alky motors,next to 10 10K RPM motors. PM me all the specs of your motor is possible and I will see what the pro says

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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2008, 09:30:09 PM »
hey rod i would run the boat on Alcohol the E85 dont come close to the stuff you get from VP i run 116 FL in my little 440 ford it makes the 800 hp with no prob and then throw a 450 shot of nos to it to get over a 1000 hp with no probs but i know with a few changes ie the cam and intake and carb on alcohol i could get to the 1000 hp with no nos last season i was going to the river every other weekend and burning two drums of fuel and i wasnt just running around that was a shit load of racing it was costing me 640 for two drums of fuel 55 gallons each when i looked into alcohol it was going to be about  a $100 less give or take  so for as much as it goes out f-ck it run the alcohol and build shit loads of power.good luck

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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2008, 09:40:39 PM »
This is pretty much the way I thought the thread would go.  ::)


sorry for asking a question in your thread rod, it will not happen again :)
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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2008, 09:41:40 PM »
sorry for asking a question in your thread rod, it will not happen again :)

Whoa!!! Can I buy ya' a beer or something? No worries.  ;D
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

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« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2008, 09:42:35 PM »
... i run 116 FL...

What is that? Thanks for the reply.
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2008, 11:55:18 PM »
Alcohol is also very corrosive, so you need to flush everything out before letting it sit. Learned that from the imca modified guys around here. I live in yuma and surprisingly the price for 110 is still under $6 (think it's up to 5.89). I get it at the Love's truck stop off of I8. I used to run a 4:1 ratio of pump 91 and 110 on my CR500 (had a milled head on it, so higher than stock compression). I would think this would be pretty close for your application. I remember running 91 in my dads SS396 Nova which had 13:1 pistons in it but we had to retard the timing and change the advance curve.
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« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2008, 01:39:48 AM »
Let me see what I can add - OK, what is a big roller cam? 13.1 isn't shit if you have duration and proper quench. It's diesel territory with a stock cam and flat tops.   

The real question is - what is your DYNAMIC compression ratio?

Alcohol - ratio is 6:1 instead of 12:1, so 2x the fuel. It keeps things nice and cool, great for those with a too small radiator and can't get enough cool air flowing. Somehow, not an issue with a boat. Great if your dynamic compression ratio is over 11.5:1. Downsides are, you will have to flush and WD40 EVERYTHING after you run it. I mean pull the plugs, drain the carbs, etc. Seriously.


methanol-M1(There are 3 different types now and $ increase as the type you wish to use) is 3.00 gallon, ethanol is 4.00 per gallon.  Ethanol -100% doesn't consume as(used as much smaller jetting) as where methonal requires larger jetting.  Both are very good precursers to detonation prevention and usually good to 16:1, much cooler running, but somewhat corrosive

Draw back is, the contamination they do the oil system and fuel system lines is a continous maint.(read oil changes every weekend) , and you should install shut off valves on the methonal side of the fuel and always drain the lines...this prevents the seals from breaking down in your fuel pump. EGT's will be approx 200* less and great throttle response. 

methanol will give you more torque. You have to watch the moisture when running methanol though, you can milk your oil and wash down your cylinders unless you get the proper tune.

E85 is not nearly as corrosive, the 85% mix with gas helps with that. It acts like high octane gas for the most part.

116 will go flat after a while.

Add a little nitromethane to the mix of gas, you'll be ok.

In reality, as soon as you hit the octane requirement needed, adding octane will not bump your performance, it will actually hurt it by slowing down the flame front. This is why your 78 B210 doesn't run any better on premium.




« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 02:01:30 AM by speedymopars »
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« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2008, 06:54:15 AM »
Lets just set it up to run on pump gas, get it running and go from there. My boat ate up 7-8 gals of gas between Laughlin and Needles w/ the blower, you ssshould get better mileage then that. Just get it running and injoy it while yer doing yer homework.

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« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2008, 07:34:46 AM »
... Just get it running and injoy it while yer doing yer homework.

That's exactly the plan. Running a 850 Holley first using race gas. This thread is a form of research for me when I'm ready to run the MFI.  >:D

... what is a big roller cam? ...

.714/.714 gross, .274/.278 @ .050, 110 centerline, RPM range 3800 - 7400

... The real question is - what is your DYNAMIC compression ratio? ...

I have no idea.



That's the kind of info I'm looking for (toofastforyou, stc315, speedymopars). Thanks! If the boat goes to the river twice a year and I have to readjust my valves everytime before I go out and when I come back home from my trip and have to loosen them all up again I'm willing to deal with that. Same for fuel maintenence, if I have to flush/clean my entire fuel system after every use then I'm willing to deal with that. I don't want to run alcohol if fuel consumption goes up 50% and power goes up 5%, not a good trade off. Of course the opposite can also be true, if fuel consumption goes up 50% and power goes up 50%, that's a lot of power just from a "fuel swap" and I'd probably run it after I figure out how much fuel I'd be likely to go through in a hour and a half.



... This is why your 78 B210 doesn't run any better on premium...

 :sly: Who have you been talking to, that B210 was supposed to be a secret.  :mad:  J/K
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

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« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2008, 08:16:49 AM »
Recent talks with 2 different engine builders who are consistently in the 12-1400HP range on NA big blocks, have told me it's a good idea to stick with standard 100 Octane Aviation fuel. They also went on to explain that there is NO SUCH thing as fuel  with an octane rating higher than 100. 100 IS MAX. Anything that is rated over that (VP's 116 has whats called a performance value of 116) has additives, such as lead that help slow down the flame. One of these builders while I was in the shop had a 468 on a stand with 14.5:1. That was the specific engine referenced when he was explaining the fuel thing to me. That motor was getting strapped to the dyno and was going to be running straight 100 octane AV.
I can walk over to the shop again today, it's only three addresses down from my office if you have any more questions. I'm curious how the dyno run turned out on that one too... He was telling me that in regular use this particular engine would run perfect with a 1.5:1 ratio of AV gas to premium, which is about 95 octane.

2:1 will get you 97 octane
2.3:1 will get you 94
You've gotta figure it out on your own. Find out what your setup likes best. I don't know much, but the man to talk to is right down the street.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 09:47:16 AM by UNDONE »

hotrod56cars

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« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2008, 08:22:10 AM »
I appreciate any factual and/or "real world" info I can get on the subject!   ;)
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

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« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2008, 09:43:26 AM »
i prefer to drink alcohol
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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2008, 09:44:26 AM »
Are you sure.....last I read it was gas ;D
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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2008, 04:27:15 PM »
I heard it was gas too  :screwy:

bump
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

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