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Alcohol vs. Gas

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beerjet

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« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2008, 04:55:00 PM »
Ok, now that you have newfound knowledge, what is your choice? Alky or Gas? Inquiring minds want to know  O0
No we dont .  :-\

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i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*


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bkplesh

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« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2008, 05:06:59 PM »
No we dont .  :-\

-beerjet-
bj, you're all over the old hotrod. 


av gas  has glycol (anti-freeze) in it so the fuel systems in the planes dont freeze-up also has lots of manganese in it so it burns way hotter at lower altitudes

Also doesn't race gas burn cooler?

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« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2008, 05:28:22 PM »
... Also doesn't race gas burn cooler?

NO, race gas runs hotter than alcohol and E85. That's why you can get huge compression numbers with alcohol engines, because it runs so much cooler than gasoline. In that one aspect, E85 is very similar to alcohol in that it also runs very cool.
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« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2008, 05:33:01 PM »
NO, race gas runs hotter than alcohol and E85. That's why you can get huge compression numbers with alcohol engines, because it runs so much cooler than gasoline. In that one aspect, E85 is very similar to alcohol in that it also runs very cool.
Race gas burns cooler than AV GAS :banghead:

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« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2008, 05:34:22 PM »
I heard that there are going to stop making e85

bkplesh

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« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2008, 05:35:37 PM »

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« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2008, 07:11:53 PM »
Plesh. there is no such thing as 102 octane. To bring pump 91 up to a 102 "performance rating" would take a SHIT LOAD of additives... Including lead. In fact, I really doubt it's possible... Octane in it's purest form comes in at 100 OCTANE.. VP's 110 is actually 96 octane with a performance rating of 110. They claim that it's actually 110 but you couldn't possibly exceed a 0-100 scale.

Kinda like rating girls.
"On a scale of 1-10, she's a 12!" Technically it's not possible.

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« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2008, 07:29:10 PM »
Plesh. there is no such thing as 102 octane. To bring pump 91 up to a 102 "performance rating" would take a SHIT LOAD of additives... Including lead. In fact, I really doubt it's possible... Octane in it's purest form comes in at 100 OCTANE.. VP's 110 is actually 96 octane with a performance rating of 110. They claim that it's actually 110 but you couldn't possibly exceed a 0-100 scale.

Kinda like rating girls.
"On a scale of 1-10, she's a 12!" Technically it's not possible.
I think you're a load shit. :banghead: :mad: Lets see info on that!!!! How can vp sell their gas if it's not what they say it is?

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« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2008, 08:31:11 PM »
DAY-UM !
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« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2008, 08:31:39 PM »
It is possible for a fuel to have a RON greater than 100, because iso-octane is not the most knock-resistant substance available. Racing fuels, straight ethanol, AvGas and liquified petroleum gas (LPG) typically have octane ratings of 110 or significantly higher -ethanol's RON is 129

These are the actual octane levels of each type of fuel:

n-octane -10
n-heptane 0
2-methylheptane 23
n-hexane 25
2-methylhexane 44
Hydrogen* >50
1-heptene 60
n-pentane 62
1-pentene 84
n-butane 91
cyclohexane 97
iso-octane 100
benzene 101
E85 Ethanol 105
Methane 107
Ethane 108
Methanol 113
Toluene 114
Ethanol 116
Xylene 117
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 08:40:34 PM by OC2Vegas »
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« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2008, 08:55:13 PM »
You can't look at fuel and only judge it by it's octane rating but it is a valid part of the equation. I was reading about a race engine, dynoe'd twin turbo 1300+ HP, running on E85, and that there was minimal change in HP when he advanced the timing from 38 degree's adavanced to 50 degree's advanced. There is obviously more to the story but a gasoline powered engine just can not do that.
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« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2008, 09:13:48 PM »
You can't look at fuel and only judge it by it's octane rating but it is a valid part of the equation. I was reading about a race engine, dynoe'd twin turbo 1300+ HP, running on E85, and that there was minimal change in HP when he advanced the timing from 38 degree's adavanced to 50 degree's advanced. There is obviously more to the story but a gasoline powered engine just can not do that.
I've never heard of a Chevy making any more power by advancing the timing over 38*-40* . Especially not one with forced induction . I'm no wise old owl but that just sounds retarded .

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« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2008, 09:43:46 PM »
I've never heard of a Chevy making any more power by advancing the timing over 38*-40* . Especially not one with forced induction . I'm no wise old owl but that just sounds retarded .

-beerjet-

What happens when you advance the timing on your Chevy running gasoline when the timing is advanced 50 degree's?
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« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2008, 09:52:07 PM »
What happens when you advance the timing on your Chevy running gasoline when the timing is advanced 50 degree's?

DETONATION!!!!
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« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2008, 10:15:12 PM »
Optimally your fuel burns so quick that the spark happens at TDC, so it only pushes down on the piston rather than exploding while the piston is coming up. That never happens though, so you have to have the spark happen in advance, IE, degress of advance of TDC so when the explosion is in full force, it really pushes the piston down.

Higher octane means a slower flame front and the slower the flame travels, the more advance you need.

If you have a really high octane fuel, then 50 deg total is not out of the question, or even excessive for that matter.

BTW - the inverse is true with nitrous oxide. The extra O2 makes the flame burn faster, so you need less advance, aka a retard from the intended position, typically 1-2 degrees for every 50HP.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 10:17:29 PM by speedymopars »
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« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2008, 12:00:13 AM »
Thanks again Speedy! You have had to of taken a lot of classes or  ???

The point I was trying to make (50 degree's advanced) was that the tuning window (timing is part of tuning) of E85 and alcohol is huge, you run it fat/rich (part of the reason you'll read things like "with alcohol you'll use 3X the fuel, etc.. although you do have to run it fatter than gas) and there's no detonation problems (like with gasoline), but unlike gasoline you're not fouling plugs for running too rich, and the cool part is that the fatter you run it the more power it can make (up to a point) (more tuning), and you're still not melting parts or fouling plugs. I haven't found info yet on air temp vs. combustion chamber temp but with the "cool" burning of E85 and alcohol it can't be a bad thing on the river when it's 123 degree's outside and your boat's WOT is at 6500 RPM.
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« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2008, 12:23:26 AM »
... How stout is your bottom end ? ...
-beerjet-

Thread jack but good info anyone building a BBC. Bottom end is stock GM steel crank, Manley H-Beams, and Ross forged 13:1 pistons.
These same exact parts were used in a flat bottom for "most" of one race season (drags) in a 468 going through the lights at 103 mph at 7100 RPM. The same parts with 14.25:1 forged Ross pistons did two entire race seasons (drags, runner bottom v-drive) going through the lights at 134 mph at 9800 RPM. LOL, he (owner/builder) said "it's like a crap shoot everytime, just rolling the dice  ;D ".
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« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2008, 08:35:57 AM »
Because over 100 is a performance rating. Not an octane rating. It's simply the equivalent of "if you could" go over 100 octane.

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« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2008, 05:51:41 PM »
Some of this info is from PM's, some of it I got from many places on the net, some of it is "copy and paiste", in some places I added more info in parenthesese (sp?), and some of it had to be retyped out. Any info I got I only got it from people that use or have used the fuel in the statement. Far too many people make quick judgements forming uneducated decisions. Whatever it's worth to whomever...  :-*

Alcohol, in the same exact engine with the same tune, will use 2X more fuel, and make a little less HP. (I found that most people said that alcohol makes a little less HP than gasoline while a few others said it makes a little bit more HP. I believe the variation in opinion is due to jetting and the gasoline they're comparing it to. I couldn't find a dyno that's been done on the comparison.) However, you can turn up the timing, and get the power back. Then you can run a more agressive timing curve, and make more power. Then you can add compression / boost and make lots more power. Alcohol has no lubricity, there are additives for that. The tuning window for alcohol is much bigger than gasoline. When alcohol is on fire there are no flames or smoke, there are additives for that. Alcohol is kind of like an acidic liquid in that it will "eat" or corode aluminum, pot metal, rubber, etc... Alcohol is easier to tune with over gasoline.  Alcohol is also very corrosive, so you need to flush everything out before letting it sit. Alcohol - ratio is 6:1 instead of 12:1, so 2x the fuel. It keeps things nice and cool, great for those with a too small radiator and can't get enough cool air flowing. Somehow, not an issue with a boat. Great if your dynamic compression ratio is over 11.5:1. Downsides are, you will have to flush and WD40 EVERYTHING after you run it. I mean pull the plugs, drain the carbs, etc. Seriously. Alcohol burns much cooler than gasoline allowing much higher compression ratio's, much more ignition timing, much more boost on turbo and blower applications, etc... Reading plugs on alky is tricky. Bassicaly the plug should look new. Any color on porcelin is from additives or oil from motor. Intake guides, gasket leaking, rings etc. I always watch the electrode coming from the side of the plug, The "color" on this is an inducator of timing.

AvGas has no top end lube in it and there are additives for that. It is a general conscensus (sp?) from the people that play with their toys in the desert that once a engine has been run on AvGas for a while you can't switch it back to gasoline, it washes the rings out. I've talked with at least 5 people who've run AvGas in their jet boats, a few of them have run AvGas for over a decade with zero problems, and it has proven to be safe with engine with as much as 13.5:1 compression ratio's (use at your own risk).  ... one of these builders while I was in the shop had a 468 on a stand with 14.5:1. That was the specific engine referenced when he was explaining the fuel thing to me. That motor was getting strapped to the dyno and was going to be running straight 100 octane AV. I'm curious how the dyno run turned out on that one too... He was telling me that in regular use this particular engine would run perfect with a 1.5:1 ratio of AV gas to premium, which is about 95 octane.  It will sustain 12-1 compression no problem. I have run it in my dirt track cars and my drag car for years. I run it in my blower motor in my boat. It makes 13 lbs. boost and no intercooler.....no problem there either. It has lead in it...good for valves. Downside.... no upper cylinder lubrication. I fix that by mixing marvel mystery oil in it at a 100 to 1 ratio which actually raises the octane slightly also. Also another downside is it doesnt have as much explosive power ounce per ounce as compared to race gas.

2:1 will get you 97 octane
2.3:1 will get you 94

E85 acts like a combination of higher octane gasoline and alcohol. With E85 I've read that fuel consumption goes up 15 - 50% (I believe the variation is soley due to jetting and that 15% is a more viable comparison figure, read on). E85 is not nearly as corrosive as alcohol, the 15% mix with gas helps with that. E85 is Ethanol, not Methanol. Ethanol mixed with gasoline undergoes a chemical reaction when it sits too long in a tank, because it attracts more water, which leaves a non-combustable fluid on the bottom of your tank. 101 - 106 octane from the pump. Runs way cooler than gasoline. Has some of the charactoristics of alcohol but it's better than methanol, like not as dry on the upper side of the engine, not as corrosive on lines, tanks, etc. I went to GM school on the flexfuel vehicles, it does provide more power than super unleaded fuel. It also requires more of it to produce the correct air/fuel ratio, but we're olny talking jetting up a carb maybe 3-4 jet sizes to make the stuff work. E85 cleans all the old varnish and crap in the old tanks and lines. E85 will eat fiberglass too. May want to consider something to catch any sludge material, I guess a water/fuel seperator won't work, and also a
low fuel pressure kill switch. Those turbo guys are using aluminum gas tanks with no problems so the right fuel lines and a compatable pump should take care of fuel supply. Some guys say you need 10-15% more fuel and some all the way to 40% more. Most guys are using gas calibration and best power seems to be around 12.0 A/F ratio. Also need to drop sparkplugs down 3 sizes according to one of the manufacturers. It's not corrosive (as a lot of people claim that have never used it). I work on E85 vehicles everyday and they run great on the stuff! At the GM flex fuel classes I went too, they told us that GM vehicles used @20% more E85 than gas, but the 20% more also yielded lower egt's, lower intake temps, and @15% more power. E85 to top it off it is made 100% within the confines of the USA. Many people state that the fuel is corrosive and it could have adverse effects on aluminum fuel rails, injector o-rings and fuel lines, but so far in 9 months of testing we have seen no such side effects. E85 will give your tanks and fuel lines an "INSTANT CLEANING". For those of you who plan on running this stuff in your old varnished gas tanks, be carefull. The minute this fuel hits the system, it starts getting rid of all the gas tar that has built up over the years. I have been running it for a year in a weekend driver.  The gas tank sat full of E85 all winter long.  I haven't seen any indicators that this fuel is causing damage to anything. I had the gas tank out this spring and every thing looked fine. I haven't even needed to change the fuel filter. We ran E85 in a banshee, 72 hp on race fuel, 82 hp on E85. Just ran my first tank of E85 through. My fuel economy did not drop as much as the math suggests it should.  I averaged 23 mpg on E85, and on the same trip I was averaging 26 mpg on 93 octane.  So with my 50/50 hwy/cty commute it only dropped 10%.  I love this stuff, I just hope materials compatability doesn't become a problem and force me to change anything.  So far no problems though. That is half the loss the math shows it should be.  I added more timing, but primarily just where is was knock limited.  Car is much faster now.  This is a daily driven car, about 330 miles per week. The loss should be close to 30%, but it is much less in my case.  I am very happy with it as a fuel.  I haven't even had to change my fuel filter yet (I fully expected it to clog in 500 miles).  It smells NICE. E85 engine reacts more to even slight changes in a/f ration on E85 vs. gas, even at part throttle cruise. Cold start seems more crisp, and smells a little like coolant burning.
E85 To sum it all up
Why is Ethanol a better fuel?
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline --- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100, its blending octane when added to gasoline is rated at 118, so it is a very cost effective octane booster.
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the PCM problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can. That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more "longer" crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. Theorethically, the gain is 5% just by switching fuel. 350 hp X 5% = 15 hp, plus what can be gained from timing.
I just tried out E85 for myself. Its in a big ass cammed LS1 car, and the mph picked up from 89 to 92 in the 1/8. It didn't care too much as far as timing or richness. It seemed to like about 33 degrees advance, but would take up to 40 and ran the same (27 on 93 octane). It also didn't care too much about the AFR either. I varied it from 12.8 to 10.8 and it didn't pick up any or slow down. And my exhaust smells like rum now!!
E85, 1340 RWHP, Over a year in mine no issues at all.
•   E85 is easy to use and handle - E85 fueling equipment is slightly different and of similar cost to equipment used to store and dispense petroleum fuels. In some cases, it may be possible to convert your existing petroleum equipment to handle E85.
•   Using E85 reduces petroleum consumption - Use of E85 will reduce a fleet's overall use of petroleum and replace it with a renewable-based fuel produced ("grown") in the United States.
•   E85 is good for the environment - Beyond operational ease, E85 offers considerable environmental benefits. To learn more about fuel economy, greenhouse gas scores, and air pollution scores for individual vehicles, go to the U.S. Department of Energy/U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's on-line Fuel Economy Guide. You can search for E85-fueled vehicles by selecting "flexible-fueled vehicles" in the "Select Vehicle Type" pull-down menu. Once you are there, select individual vehicles to get fuel economy, greenhouse gas, and air pollution details.




I did not do any researching on race gas.
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« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2008, 06:51:55 PM »
Purely from a cost standpoint. Distance between Martinez Lake and Walters Camp is 35 miles, I do not know if that’s nautical miles or what… the fuel prices are rough guestimations as the cost of fuels change as much as the weather changes.

35 miles divided by 12 gallons of 91 octane gasoline = 2.92 mpg
12 gallons multiplied by $4.09 a gallon = $49.08

35 miles divided by 24 gallons of alcohol (hypothetically) = 1.46 mpg
24 gallons multiplied by $(unknown) a gallon = (unknown)

35 miles divided by 13.8 gallons of E85 (hypothetical, 15% increase over gasoline) = 2.54
13.8 gallons multiplied by $3.42 a gallon = $47.20

35 miles divided by (unknown) gallons of AvGas = (unknown)
(unknown) gallons multiplied by $4.69 a gallon (Brown Filed Airport) = (unknown)

Obviously this is not a very scientific way to come up with solid answers, it was just something I was playing around with. Also with the E85 there is little to no information on it in boating scenerio’s , without real world testing and documentation there really is no way to determine how much of an increase in jetting would be required. I’ve read some car drag racers that increased jetting 15% and got positive results and I’ve read articles where stock flex fuel vehicles used as much as 25% more E85 than gasoline for the same trips taken.

If anyone wants to fill in the “unknown’s”, have a ball and thanks.
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

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« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2008, 08:15:56 PM »
He was telling me that in regular use this particular engine would run perfect with a 1.5:1 ratio of AV gas to premium, which is about 95 octane.

2:1 will get you 97 octane
2.3:1 will get you 94
You've gotta figure it out on your own. Find out what your setup likes best. I don't know much, but the man to talk to is right down the street.

I know that people mix fuel all the time, but I was told by a former customer that was a fuel engineer with Chevron (?) that mixing fuel will not always give as good a results as buying the right fuel with the correct rating.  His point was that if you mix 87 with 91 you will not get 89 but something a little less. 

Just keep in mind that if the fuel you mixed the first time works good, don't be suprised if something goes foul the second time.
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« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2008, 08:18:25 PM »
Just run a diesel engine and convert to CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) its 63 cents a gallon in Utah right now!
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« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2008, 08:20:57 PM »
That Mazda rotary top ends like a MOFO on YouTube.  Got any RX7's laying around Sanford?   ;D
  • Boat #1: 1973  Wriedt Montara 23
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hotrod56cars

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« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2008, 08:59:30 PM »
... Got any RX7's laying around Sanford?   ;D

Sold 'em all  :banghead:  J/K No, I've never had a rotary. But a friend of mine has had two of them, turbo rotory's at that.
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« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2008, 07:47:24 AM »
Anybody have info on the CNG conversion for diesels?

 


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