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Alcohol vs. Gas

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hotrod56cars

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« on: May 08, 2008, 07:48:20 PM »
I need to make a decision and stick with it and incorparate my decision into my plan. I'm debateing (sp?) on whether or not to run alcohol, E85, or race gas in my jet boat. I'm trying to consider safety, HP, fuel consumption, and cost. I really don't care if I have to bring extra fuel with me on my trips to the water.

When alcohol burns I've been told there aren't any visible flames, I'm not sure if I like that idea for my (hopefully) fast lake boat. I think running alcohol gets more HP but I have no idea how much more HP. Alcohol engines, I've read, use 30 - 60% more fuel. I don't want to drive to the sandbar and immediately have to turn around and head back because the boat's running out of fuel. I'm also not expecting to drive my boat for hours and hours of play. I can get more fuel in the boat by switching tanks but there has to be a point where it isn't cost effective, fuel is heavy. I have no idea how much alcohol fuel costs.

With E85 there is 15% gasoline in it so at least I should know if some of it is on fire. I have no idea if running E85 makes more HP. With E85 I've read that fuel consumption goes up 30 - 50%. E85 is the least expensive fuel that I know of, about $3 a gallon.

Lastly is race gas. Definately produces smoke when it's on fire. Fuel consumption is less than alcohol or E85. Cost of the fuel is $6 a gallon minimum. I believe that it makes the least HP compared to the other 2 types of fuels mentioned, but I really don't know for sure.


I need some advice/input from people that have the answers on different types of fuels, I know there are a few people on here that run or have run alcohol, and if the advice/input has with fast lake jet boats in mind it's even better. Thanks!








A couple of side notes:
I did talk with TIMINATOR on the phone for quite some time on the subject and his answer was definately race gas.
I typed in the word "alcohol" on SoCal's search bar and there are far too many topics with alcohol in them.  >:D
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Luckie Stiff

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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2008, 07:57:32 PM »
Rod-

Better check your race gas prices, last barrel I bought (march 08) was $50.84 for 5 gallons. Methanol and E85 and E95 race blends are a little bit pricier.  If I was you, and I'm not, I'd set the fu*ker up to run on good old fashioned pump gas, maybe do a 50/50 mix, but any type of race fuel is going to kill you financially. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Skip

Oh yeah, PM me your mailing address please
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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2008, 08:00:32 PM »
These guys sell Torco


Name: Helix Motorsports
Phone: (619)-670-1055
Contact Person: Michael Bolden
2650 Jamacha Rd. Ste.147-306
El Cajon, CA 92019
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hotrod56cars

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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2008, 08:03:59 PM »
I'm using a price that I got from a friend who recently went to Yuma and said it's like $5.85 a gallon for 110 at the pump. Last time I looked, several months ago, E85 was like $2.95 a gallon at the pump. A pump gas deal or mixture thereof is out of the question. Stay on topic!   :D
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« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2008, 08:10:50 PM »
Well at 5.85 a gallon, I'd be willing to bet your boat will sit more than run, and there's no comparing 110 to E85, they're not even in the same species, oh yeah, E85 is about 35% less efficient than petroleum based fuel so the savings per gallon go out the window if you do the math.
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2008, 08:44:07 PM »
I have seen some pretty impressive numbers from really big cubic inch motors that run on 87 octane.  Similar to blown big blocks in the 450 cu in range.  I wouldn't build anything that needs exotic fuel because I think it would really limit how much I got to be out on the water.  I'm not really a "sit at the sand bar all day" kinda guy.  There are a couple lakes local to you, do you think you would go out for the day if you were gonna spend $150-200 just for fuel.  Heck if you didn't use it all you would feel guilty letting it sit around in the tanks waiting for the one big holiday weekend when you feel you can afford to go to the river.  Gotta figure in the fun per $ ratio in everything.
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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2008, 08:50:37 PM »
I goota say Rod.... I have to agree with Skip and the others say to run on pump gas. What kind of MPH are you looking for? I have seen and been in plenty of boat that do 80+ on pump gas. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Bob

the jet boat never did this to you bob ::)
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« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2008, 09:03:58 PM »
what is everyones opinion of av gas or an av and super mix??
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2008, 09:05:59 PM »
With alcohol you burn twice as much fuel. I get it for around $3.90 a gallon in 55 gallon drum. You are correct about the invisible flame it sucks. If the boat is gonna make some hard runs and go back on the trailer then no biggie but for a lake boat no bueno.

 We have used airplane fuel mixed 50/50 Premium Chevron or whatever with great results. Don't know how easy airplane fuel is to get anymore.

What compression are you running???

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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2008, 09:15:22 PM »
it is easily available in phoenix, but its 5.35 a gal.
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2008, 09:20:56 PM »
This is pretty much the way I thought the thread would go.  ::)

I don't have a 632 BBC so the low compression big cu. in deal ain't working for me. I have a 13:1, 468 BBC, dry headers, a big roller cam, and for all intents and purposes of this thread a MFI stack system. I'm looking for the best compromise between safety, efficiency, cost, and HP between 3 different types of fuels. What mph/HP am I looking for? Maximum amount that I can get with my current engine configuration without going through 22 gallons of fuel in a hour. I don't need to hear, in this thread, about blowers, Holley's,  ;D  , etc... I'm looking for a fast lake boat that goes to the river twice a year and goes to the lake twice a year. If I want to go to the lake or river with the family, pull tubes and crap, I have a boat for that. This thread isn't about that boat.  :D
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2008, 09:25:55 PM »
I will ask Dale (Hondo Boats) tomorrow. He literally has 3 of your motors just sitting in his shop, next to 5 blower motors,next to 5 alky motors,next to 10 10K RPM motors. PM me all the specs of your motor is possible and I will see what the pro says

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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2008, 09:30:09 PM »
hey rod i would run the boat on Alcohol the E85 dont come close to the stuff you get from VP i run 116 FL in my little 440 ford it makes the 800 hp with no prob and then throw a 450 shot of nos to it to get over a 1000 hp with no probs but i know with a few changes ie the cam and intake and carb on alcohol i could get to the 1000 hp with no nos last season i was going to the river every other weekend and burning two drums of fuel and i wasnt just running around that was a shit load of racing it was costing me 640 for two drums of fuel 55 gallons each when i looked into alcohol it was going to be about  a $100 less give or take  so for as much as it goes out f-ck it run the alcohol and build shit loads of power.good luck

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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2008, 09:40:39 PM »
This is pretty much the way I thought the thread would go.  ::)


sorry for asking a question in your thread rod, it will not happen again :)
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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2008, 09:41:40 PM »
sorry for asking a question in your thread rod, it will not happen again :)

Whoa!!! Can I buy ya' a beer or something? No worries.  ;D
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

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« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2008, 09:42:35 PM »
... i run 116 FL...

What is that? Thanks for the reply.
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2008, 11:55:18 PM »
Alcohol is also very corrosive, so you need to flush everything out before letting it sit. Learned that from the imca modified guys around here. I live in yuma and surprisingly the price for 110 is still under $6 (think it's up to 5.89). I get it at the Love's truck stop off of I8. I used to run a 4:1 ratio of pump 91 and 110 on my CR500 (had a milled head on it, so higher than stock compression). I would think this would be pretty close for your application. I remember running 91 in my dads SS396 Nova which had 13:1 pistons in it but we had to retard the timing and change the advance curve.
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« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2008, 01:39:48 AM »
Let me see what I can add - OK, what is a big roller cam? 13.1 isn't shit if you have duration and proper quench. It's diesel territory with a stock cam and flat tops.   

The real question is - what is your DYNAMIC compression ratio?

Alcohol - ratio is 6:1 instead of 12:1, so 2x the fuel. It keeps things nice and cool, great for those with a too small radiator and can't get enough cool air flowing. Somehow, not an issue with a boat. Great if your dynamic compression ratio is over 11.5:1. Downsides are, you will have to flush and WD40 EVERYTHING after you run it. I mean pull the plugs, drain the carbs, etc. Seriously.


methanol-M1(There are 3 different types now and $ increase as the type you wish to use) is 3.00 gallon, ethanol is 4.00 per gallon.  Ethanol -100% doesn't consume as(used as much smaller jetting) as where methonal requires larger jetting.  Both are very good precursers to detonation prevention and usually good to 16:1, much cooler running, but somewhat corrosive

Draw back is, the contamination they do the oil system and fuel system lines is a continous maint.(read oil changes every weekend) , and you should install shut off valves on the methonal side of the fuel and always drain the lines...this prevents the seals from breaking down in your fuel pump. EGT's will be approx 200* less and great throttle response. 

methanol will give you more torque. You have to watch the moisture when running methanol though, you can milk your oil and wash down your cylinders unless you get the proper tune.

E85 is not nearly as corrosive, the 85% mix with gas helps with that. It acts like high octane gas for the most part.

116 will go flat after a while.

Add a little nitromethane to the mix of gas, you'll be ok.

In reality, as soon as you hit the octane requirement needed, adding octane will not bump your performance, it will actually hurt it by slowing down the flame front. This is why your 78 B210 doesn't run any better on premium.




« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 02:01:30 AM by speedymopars »
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« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2008, 06:54:15 AM »
Lets just set it up to run on pump gas, get it running and go from there. My boat ate up 7-8 gals of gas between Laughlin and Needles w/ the blower, you ssshould get better mileage then that. Just get it running and injoy it while yer doing yer homework.

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« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2008, 07:34:46 AM »
... Just get it running and injoy it while yer doing yer homework.

That's exactly the plan. Running a 850 Holley first using race gas. This thread is a form of research for me when I'm ready to run the MFI.  >:D

... what is a big roller cam? ...

.714/.714 gross, .274/.278 @ .050, 110 centerline, RPM range 3800 - 7400

... The real question is - what is your DYNAMIC compression ratio? ...

I have no idea.



That's the kind of info I'm looking for (toofastforyou, stc315, speedymopars). Thanks! If the boat goes to the river twice a year and I have to readjust my valves everytime before I go out and when I come back home from my trip and have to loosen them all up again I'm willing to deal with that. Same for fuel maintenence, if I have to flush/clean my entire fuel system after every use then I'm willing to deal with that. I don't want to run alcohol if fuel consumption goes up 50% and power goes up 5%, not a good trade off. Of course the opposite can also be true, if fuel consumption goes up 50% and power goes up 50%, that's a lot of power just from a "fuel swap" and I'd probably run it after I figure out how much fuel I'd be likely to go through in a hour and a half.



... This is why your 78 B210 doesn't run any better on premium...

 :sly: Who have you been talking to, that B210 was supposed to be a secret.  :mad:  J/K
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

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« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2008, 08:16:49 AM »
Recent talks with 2 different engine builders who are consistently in the 12-1400HP range on NA big blocks, have told me it's a good idea to stick with standard 100 Octane Aviation fuel. They also went on to explain that there is NO SUCH thing as fuel  with an octane rating higher than 100. 100 IS MAX. Anything that is rated over that (VP's 116 has whats called a performance value of 116) has additives, such as lead that help slow down the flame. One of these builders while I was in the shop had a 468 on a stand with 14.5:1. That was the specific engine referenced when he was explaining the fuel thing to me. That motor was getting strapped to the dyno and was going to be running straight 100 octane AV.
I can walk over to the shop again today, it's only three addresses down from my office if you have any more questions. I'm curious how the dyno run turned out on that one too... He was telling me that in regular use this particular engine would run perfect with a 1.5:1 ratio of AV gas to premium, which is about 95 octane.

2:1 will get you 97 octane
2.3:1 will get you 94
You've gotta figure it out on your own. Find out what your setup likes best. I don't know much, but the man to talk to is right down the street.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 09:47:16 AM by UNDONE »

hotrod56cars

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« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2008, 08:22:10 AM »
I appreciate any factual and/or "real world" info I can get on the subject!   ;)
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

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« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2008, 09:43:26 AM »
i prefer to drink alcohol
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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2008, 09:44:26 AM »
Are you sure.....last I read it was gas ;D
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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2008, 04:27:15 PM »
I heard it was gas too  :screwy:

bump
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

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« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2008, 10:45:10 AM »
Sounds like your askin an awfull lot for so little . What cylinder head are you gonna run to mix all this wonderful fuel and air ?

How stout is your bottom end ?

What RPM range are you gonna run in ?

Is your boat/pump combo goin to be able to handle 1000 HP ?

Have you ever been a boat that goes "MACH 1" ?

Me personally , I think you've gone at this project backwards .

-beerjet-

i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

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« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2008, 11:56:51 AM »
I think you've gone at this project backwards .

-beerjet-


it wouldn't be the first time :-X

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« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2008, 12:01:53 PM »
I think you've gone at this project backwards .



That line should be in my Bahner thread :o

2sav

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« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2008, 12:10:03 PM »
That line should be in my Bahner thread :o
2sav

I think I'VE   gone at this project backwards

I fixed it for you steve! ;D
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« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2008, 01:53:43 PM »
I think this thread has gone backwards.  ;)

I'm trying to get some info on different types of fuels and I'm getting questions about bottom ends, driving ability (or lack thereof), etc... but I guess it could be worse... I could be trying to sell a boat and instead getting lessons on the economy.  :banghead:

Sounds like your askin an awfull lot for so little. You have no idea what I have (read your questions below) but it seems you know it's little. WTF?

What cylinder head are you gonna run to mix all this wonderful fuel and air ? Which fuel, alcohol, race gas, Avgas, hello?? What's the thread about again? This year, large oval port GM heads.

How stout is your bottom end ?  :-*  I love you too homeboy.  :D  VERY stout.

What RPM range are you gonna run in ?  Hopefully over 6K.

Is your boat/pump combo goin to be able to handle 1000 HP ? If I had 20 K to put into my pump and my hull I'd have that all aluminum 632, right? One step at a time. It isn't going to have 1000 HP this year, I'll be LUCKY to have 650 HP.

Have you ever been a boat that goes "MACH 1" ? I have no idea how fast that is. Might as well sell it all and buy another BMX bicycle because I haven't done Mach 1 in a boat.  :banghead:

Me personally , I think you've gone at this project backwards . Now how in the phuk can you logicaly say that? Because I bought an intake system that doesn't jive with you or because I'm trying to figure out alternative fuel's that you don't want to run?? You didn't know anything about what I've got but your insistant that what I've got is all wrong and I'm going about it all wrong. That's retarded and doesn't make any sense.   :-\

-beerjet-



Bottom end: forged GM steel crank (stronger than forged Eagles or forged Scats), forged Manley H-Beam rods, forged Ross pistons, SFI flexplate ;)  ,GM balancer - all balanced together as a matching assembly.





Compared to gasoline, I've learned that alcohol engines consume considerably more fuel. Does alcohol make more HP "out of the box" or does it give the ability to make more HP? If it does make more HP, is there a rough "percentage" as to how much more it will make?

Is E85 a alcohol type of fuel or is it it's own animal? I know it's a fairly new fuel, is it more comparable to gasoline or alcojol, or neither?

What is 116 FL?
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« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2008, 04:40:46 PM »
Just to answer a question .

Alky WILL require double to run . Alky IS easier to tune . Alky has NO lubricity .

If you wanna run with the big dogs . Build a boat and motor to do so . For your personal info , I love the mech injection manifolds . I understand that they are temramental (sp?) and therefore do not run one myself . Point is , you wanna build a bad ass motor and get ever last bit of power , my opinion is alky . Make sure you bring a few cases of oil as well , and a rope to get pulled out of the weeds for when I blow into them  >:D SUCKER !

-beerjet-
i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

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« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2008, 05:07:25 PM »
 ;D  I agree that alky would be the better choice for an all out effort to run with the big dogs but that's not exactly what I am after. I'm after the best that I can do with what I have without having to refill my 2 11 gallon fuel tanks every half hour. This boat isn't being built to run with the big dogs, it's not being built to race officially, it's not being built to impress anyone but myself, it's not being built to go on some sort of show circuit, it's being built for my own personal satisfaction, it's being built because I like hot rods and even better if they're on the water, I'm only living once and if I want to haul some serious asss on the water this could be a great boat to do it with.

So in order for me to make a decision on which fuel to run I need more info... specifically...

Compared to gasoline, I've learned that alcohol engines consume considerably more fuel, roughly 50% more. Alcohol has no lubricity, there are additives for that. The tuning window for alcohol is much bigger than gasoline. When alcohol is on fire there are no flames or smoke, there are additives for that. Alcohol is kind of like an acidic liquid in that it will "eat" or corode aluminum, pot metal, rubber, etc... Does alcohol make more HP "out of the box" or does it just give the ability to make more HP? If it does make more HP, is there a rough "percentage" as to how much more it will make?

Is E85 a alcohol type of fuel or is it it's own animal? I know it's a fairly new fuel, is it more comparable to gasoline or alcohol, or neither?
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

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« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2008, 05:59:49 PM »
Oh fock my head hurts. That's enuf for today.  Lets have a margarita . . . who's with me  :D
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« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2008, 07:28:41 PM »
;D  I agree that alky would be the better choice for an all out effort to run with the big dogs but that's not exactly what I am after. I'm after the best that I can do with what I have without having to refill my 2 11 gallon fuel tanks every half hour. This boat isn't being built to run with the big dogs, it's not being built to race officially, it's not being built to impress anyone but myself, it's not being built to go on some sort of show circuit, it's being built for my own personal satisfaction, it's being built because I like hot rods and even better if they're on the water, I'm only living once and if I want to haul some serious asss on the water this could be a great boat to do it with.

So in order for me to make a decision on which fuel to run I need more info... specifically...

Compared to gasoline, I've learned that alcohol engines consume considerably more fuel, roughly 50% more. Alcohol has no lubricity, there are additives for that. The tuning window for alcohol is much bigger than gasoline. When alcohol is on fire there are no flames or smoke, there are additives for that. Alcohol is kind of like an acidic liquid in that it will "eat" or corode aluminum, pot metal, rubber, etc... Does alcohol make more HP "out of the box" or does it just give the ability to make more HP? If it does make more HP, is there a rough "percentage" as to how much more it will make?

Is E85 a alcohol type of fuel or is it it's own animal? I know it's a fairly new fuel, is it more comparable to gasoline or alcohol, or neither?

Alcohol, in the same exact engine with the same tune, will use 2X more fuel, and make a little less HP.

However, you can turn up the timing, and get the power back.
Then you can run a more agressive timing curve, and make more power.
Then you can add compression / boost and make lots more power.

As I said earlier, E85 acts like higher octane gasoline.




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« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2008, 07:39:24 PM »
Alcohol, in the same exact engine with the same tune, will use 2X more fuel, and make a little less HP.

However, you can turn up the timing, and get the power back.
Then you can run a more agressive timing curve, and make more power.
Then you can add compression / boost and make lots more power.

As I said earlier, E85 acts like higher octane gasoline.






Thank you Speedy  ;)
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« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2008, 07:02:31 AM »
;D  I agree that alky would be the better choice for an all out effort to run with the big dogs but that's not exactly what I am after. I'm after the best that I can do with what I have without having to refill my 2 11 gallon fuel tanks every half hour. This boat isn't being built to run with the big dogs, it's not being built to race officially, it's not being built to impress anyone but myself, it's not being built to go on some sort of show circuit, it's being built for my own personal satisfaction, it's being built because I like hot rods and even better if they're on the water, I'm only living once and if I want to haul some serious asss on the water this could be a great boat to do it with.

So in order for me to make a decision on which fuel to run I need more info... specifically...

Compared to gasoline, I've learned that alcohol engines consume considerably more fuel, roughly 50% more. Alcohol has no lubricity, there are additives for that. The tuning window for alcohol is much bigger than gasoline. When alcohol is on fire there are no flames or smoke, there are additives for that. Alcohol is kind of like an acidic liquid in that it will "eat" or corode aluminum, pot metal, rubber, etc... Does alcohol make more HP "out of the box" or does it just give the ability to make more HP? If it does make more HP, is there a rough "percentage" as to how much more it will make?

Is E85 a alcohol type of fuel or is it it's own animal? I know it's a fairly new fuel, is it more comparable to gasoline or alcohol, or neither?
go get a stock motor, Thats all you can handle >:D (about 65mph) just run gas. it's cheaper than the rest. Why build something that you can only run once a year, because you can't full it up. (buy a outboard, save gas and money) ;D pump 91 and add an additive for 102 oct.  :banghead:  Just built the motor and get it on the water. :mad:  :mad: Stop over thinking thing. Plus what size impeller do you have? ;D  You're going to have to buy one for all that horsepower you have :screwy: Also how the bottom of your boat? hahahahahaha  ;D

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« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2008, 09:06:16 AM »
go get a stock motor, Thats all you can handle >:D (about 65mph) just run gas. it's cheaper than the rest. Why build something that you can only run once a year, because you can't full it up. (buy a outboard, save gas and money) ;D pump 91 and add an additive for 102 oct.  :banghead:  Just built the motor and get it on the water. :mad:  :mad: Stop over thinking thing. Plus what size impeller do you have? ;D  You're going to have to buy one for all that horsepower you have :screwy: Also how the bottom of your boat? hahahahahaha  ;D

Plesh plesh plesh  :-\   ;D

Why build something that you can only run once a year? Nah I figure it will be about 2 or 3 times a year. Kids soccer, baseball games, trips the family boat has to go out so I can drag a tube or wakeboard around, injuries, life, etc...

What impellor size do I have? I dunno, I think it's a A cut. Could be a AAA cut for all I know. I have a C cut waiting for it. I'll have to run a inducer with the C cut.

How's the bottom of the boat? Uhhmmm... SHINEY!?!  ;D  One step at a time brother. Not everyone has a 1,000 HP blown and injected engine detiorating (sp?) in their garage.  :screwy:  :sly:
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

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« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2008, 10:20:45 AM »
go get a stock motor, Thats all you can handle >:D (about 65mph) just run gas. it's cheaper than the rest. Why build something that you can only run once a year, because you can't full it up. (buy a outboard, save gas and money) ;D pump 91 and add an additive for 102 oct.  :banghead:  Just built the motor and get it on the water. :mad:  :mad: Stop over thinking thing. Plus what size impeller do you have? ;D  You're going to have to buy one for all that horsepower you have :screwy: Also how the bottom of your boat? hahahahahaha  ;D
Plesh plesh plesh  :-\   ;D

Why build something that you can only run once a year? Nah I figure it will be about 2 or 3 times a year. Kids soccer, baseball games, trips the family boat has to go out so I can drag a tube or wakeboard around, injuries, life, etc...

What impellor size do I have? I dunno, I think it's a A cut. Could be a AAA cut for all I know. I have a C cut waiting for it. I'll have to run a inducer with the C cut.

How's the bottom of the boat? Uhhmmm... SHINEY!?!  ;D  One step at a time brother. Not everyone has a 1,000 HP blown and injected engine detiorating (sp?) in their garage.  :screwy:  :sly:
Once again , side stepping the more important stuff  ::) Oh well , My money is on your foot wont stay in it over 50mph  ;D which leaves you rub rail racing with Jetaholic  ;D . Your just splittin hairs with this fuel bullshit and it doesn't matter what fuel your gonna run , your gonna be fuelin up constantly . See ya in the weeds , SUCKERRRRRRRRRRR !

-beerjet-
i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

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« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2008, 11:20:14 AM »
Once again , side stepping the more important stuff  ::) Oh well , My money is on your foot wont stay in it over 50mph  ;D which leaves you rub rail racing with Jetaholic  ;D . Your just splittin hairs with this fuel bullshit and it doesn't matter what fuel your gonna run , your gonna be fuelin up constantly . See ya in the weeds , SUCKERRRRRRRRRRR !

-beerjet-

 OUCH !!!  Rub rail racing with jetaholic  :o Thats going to leave a mark  ;D
Welcome to the club of broken boats :o  Pay here$ bend over and move along.

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« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2008, 11:49:41 AM »
Once again , side stepping the more important stuff  ::) Oh well , My money is on your foot wont stay in it over 50mph  ;D which leaves you rub rail racing with Jetaholic  ;D . Your just splittin hairs with this fuel bullshit and it doesn't matter what fuel your gonna run , your gonna be fuelin up constantly . See ya in the weeds , SUCKERRRRRRRRRRR !

-beerjet-

You could be right Omar, more than you think you are, LMFAO, the last time the Mach 1 went out it did 49 mph, sooo.... BTW, I smoke cigarettes soooo... when's Jetoholic going out again?  :D


BTW, for the last several hours I've been doing a LOT of research on alcohol, E85, Avgas, race gas, FUEL I think it's called... and I am definately going with
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« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2008, 12:26:10 PM »
... and I'm going with ... beer?









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« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2008, 12:31:38 PM »
... and I'm going with ... beer?









Mmmmm Beeer
Soooo what am I supposed to do with all the Jack and coke I bought for the boat ride  :-\

-beerjet-
i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

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« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2008, 03:35:27 PM »
Soooo what am I supposed to do with all the Jack and coke I bought for the boat ride  :-\

-beerjet-
save it for next year ;D

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« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2008, 03:40:59 PM »
What's the octane need to run the motor? IF it under 102, then go with 91 and octane boost. (like I told you)  :banghead: :banghead: :mad: :screwy: O0

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« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2008, 04:17:59 PM »
Soooo what am I supposed to do with all the Jack and coke I bought for the boat ride  :-\

-beerjet-
Have I mentioned I have a fridge on board?  Got me a designated driver too!  O0
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« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2008, 04:31:23 PM »
Think of all the money I'm going to save on fuel with my all aluminum pump gas 632!
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« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2008, 04:33:27 PM »
Have I mentioned I have a fridge on board?  Got me a designated driver too!  O0
Fukin sweeeeeet !

-beerjet-
i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

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« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2008, 04:38:58 PM »
I read over ? 50 ? pages on fuels today. I'm a little bit more knowledgable than before I started the thread. All who contributed positively to this thread I really appreciate your help!
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

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« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2008, 04:41:30 PM »
I read over ? 50 ? pages on fuels today. I'm a little bit more knowledgable than before I started the thread. All who contributed positively to this thread I really appreciate your help!
AND WHAT????

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« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2008, 04:42:18 PM »
Ok, now that you have newfound knowledge, what is your choice? Alky or Gas? Inquiring minds want to know  O0
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« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2008, 04:55:00 PM »
Ok, now that you have newfound knowledge, what is your choice? Alky or Gas? Inquiring minds want to know  O0
No we dont .  :-\

-beerjet-
i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

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« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2008, 05:06:59 PM »
No we dont .  :-\

-beerjet-
bj, you're all over the old hotrod. 


av gas  has glycol (anti-freeze) in it so the fuel systems in the planes dont freeze-up also has lots of manganese in it so it burns way hotter at lower altitudes

Also doesn't race gas burn cooler?

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« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2008, 05:28:22 PM »
... Also doesn't race gas burn cooler?

NO, race gas runs hotter than alcohol and E85. That's why you can get huge compression numbers with alcohol engines, because it runs so much cooler than gasoline. In that one aspect, E85 is very similar to alcohol in that it also runs very cool.
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« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2008, 05:33:01 PM »
NO, race gas runs hotter than alcohol and E85. That's why you can get huge compression numbers with alcohol engines, because it runs so much cooler than gasoline. In that one aspect, E85 is very similar to alcohol in that it also runs very cool.
Race gas burns cooler than AV GAS :banghead:

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« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2008, 05:34:22 PM »
I heard that there are going to stop making e85

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« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2008, 05:35:37 PM »

UNDONE

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« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2008, 07:11:53 PM »
Plesh. there is no such thing as 102 octane. To bring pump 91 up to a 102 "performance rating" would take a SHIT LOAD of additives... Including lead. In fact, I really doubt it's possible... Octane in it's purest form comes in at 100 OCTANE.. VP's 110 is actually 96 octane with a performance rating of 110. They claim that it's actually 110 but you couldn't possibly exceed a 0-100 scale.

Kinda like rating girls.
"On a scale of 1-10, she's a 12!" Technically it's not possible.

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« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2008, 07:29:10 PM »
Plesh. there is no such thing as 102 octane. To bring pump 91 up to a 102 "performance rating" would take a SHIT LOAD of additives... Including lead. In fact, I really doubt it's possible... Octane in it's purest form comes in at 100 OCTANE.. VP's 110 is actually 96 octane with a performance rating of 110. They claim that it's actually 110 but you couldn't possibly exceed a 0-100 scale.

Kinda like rating girls.
"On a scale of 1-10, she's a 12!" Technically it's not possible.
I think you're a load shit. :banghead: :mad: Lets see info on that!!!! How can vp sell their gas if it's not what they say it is?

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« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2008, 08:31:11 PM »
DAY-UM !
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« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2008, 08:31:39 PM »
It is possible for a fuel to have a RON greater than 100, because iso-octane is not the most knock-resistant substance available. Racing fuels, straight ethanol, AvGas and liquified petroleum gas (LPG) typically have octane ratings of 110 or significantly higher -ethanol's RON is 129

These are the actual octane levels of each type of fuel:

n-octane -10
n-heptane 0
2-methylheptane 23
n-hexane 25
2-methylhexane 44
Hydrogen* >50
1-heptene 60
n-pentane 62
1-pentene 84
n-butane 91
cyclohexane 97
iso-octane 100
benzene 101
E85 Ethanol 105
Methane 107
Ethane 108
Methanol 113
Toluene 114
Ethanol 116
Xylene 117
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 08:40:34 PM by OC2Vegas »
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« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2008, 08:55:13 PM »
You can't look at fuel and only judge it by it's octane rating but it is a valid part of the equation. I was reading about a race engine, dynoe'd twin turbo 1300+ HP, running on E85, and that there was minimal change in HP when he advanced the timing from 38 degree's adavanced to 50 degree's advanced. There is obviously more to the story but a gasoline powered engine just can not do that.
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« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2008, 09:13:48 PM »
You can't look at fuel and only judge it by it's octane rating but it is a valid part of the equation. I was reading about a race engine, dynoe'd twin turbo 1300+ HP, running on E85, and that there was minimal change in HP when he advanced the timing from 38 degree's adavanced to 50 degree's advanced. There is obviously more to the story but a gasoline powered engine just can not do that.
I've never heard of a Chevy making any more power by advancing the timing over 38*-40* . Especially not one with forced induction . I'm no wise old owl but that just sounds retarded .

-beerjet-
i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

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« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2008, 09:43:46 PM »
I've never heard of a Chevy making any more power by advancing the timing over 38*-40* . Especially not one with forced induction . I'm no wise old owl but that just sounds retarded .

-beerjet-

What happens when you advance the timing on your Chevy running gasoline when the timing is advanced 50 degree's?
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« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2008, 09:52:07 PM »
What happens when you advance the timing on your Chevy running gasoline when the timing is advanced 50 degree's?

DETONATION!!!!
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« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2008, 10:15:12 PM »
Optimally your fuel burns so quick that the spark happens at TDC, so it only pushes down on the piston rather than exploding while the piston is coming up. That never happens though, so you have to have the spark happen in advance, IE, degress of advance of TDC so when the explosion is in full force, it really pushes the piston down.

Higher octane means a slower flame front and the slower the flame travels, the more advance you need.

If you have a really high octane fuel, then 50 deg total is not out of the question, or even excessive for that matter.

BTW - the inverse is true with nitrous oxide. The extra O2 makes the flame burn faster, so you need less advance, aka a retard from the intended position, typically 1-2 degrees for every 50HP.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 10:17:29 PM by speedymopars »
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« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2008, 12:00:13 AM »
Thanks again Speedy! You have had to of taken a lot of classes or  ???

The point I was trying to make (50 degree's advanced) was that the tuning window (timing is part of tuning) of E85 and alcohol is huge, you run it fat/rich (part of the reason you'll read things like "with alcohol you'll use 3X the fuel, etc.. although you do have to run it fatter than gas) and there's no detonation problems (like with gasoline), but unlike gasoline you're not fouling plugs for running too rich, and the cool part is that the fatter you run it the more power it can make (up to a point) (more tuning), and you're still not melting parts or fouling plugs. I haven't found info yet on air temp vs. combustion chamber temp but with the "cool" burning of E85 and alcohol it can't be a bad thing on the river when it's 123 degree's outside and your boat's WOT is at 6500 RPM.
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« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2008, 12:23:26 AM »
... How stout is your bottom end ? ...
-beerjet-

Thread jack but good info anyone building a BBC. Bottom end is stock GM steel crank, Manley H-Beams, and Ross forged 13:1 pistons.
These same exact parts were used in a flat bottom for "most" of one race season (drags) in a 468 going through the lights at 103 mph at 7100 RPM. The same parts with 14.25:1 forged Ross pistons did two entire race seasons (drags, runner bottom v-drive) going through the lights at 134 mph at 9800 RPM. LOL, he (owner/builder) said "it's like a crap shoot everytime, just rolling the dice  ;D ".
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« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2008, 08:35:57 AM »
Because over 100 is a performance rating. Not an octane rating. It's simply the equivalent of "if you could" go over 100 octane.

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« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2008, 05:51:41 PM »
Some of this info is from PM's, some of it I got from many places on the net, some of it is "copy and paiste", in some places I added more info in parenthesese (sp?), and some of it had to be retyped out. Any info I got I only got it from people that use or have used the fuel in the statement. Far too many people make quick judgements forming uneducated decisions. Whatever it's worth to whomever...  :-*

Alcohol, in the same exact engine with the same tune, will use 2X more fuel, and make a little less HP. (I found that most people said that alcohol makes a little less HP than gasoline while a few others said it makes a little bit more HP. I believe the variation in opinion is due to jetting and the gasoline they're comparing it to. I couldn't find a dyno that's been done on the comparison.) However, you can turn up the timing, and get the power back. Then you can run a more agressive timing curve, and make more power. Then you can add compression / boost and make lots more power. Alcohol has no lubricity, there are additives for that. The tuning window for alcohol is much bigger than gasoline. When alcohol is on fire there are no flames or smoke, there are additives for that. Alcohol is kind of like an acidic liquid in that it will "eat" or corode aluminum, pot metal, rubber, etc... Alcohol is easier to tune with over gasoline.  Alcohol is also very corrosive, so you need to flush everything out before letting it sit. Alcohol - ratio is 6:1 instead of 12:1, so 2x the fuel. It keeps things nice and cool, great for those with a too small radiator and can't get enough cool air flowing. Somehow, not an issue with a boat. Great if your dynamic compression ratio is over 11.5:1. Downsides are, you will have to flush and WD40 EVERYTHING after you run it. I mean pull the plugs, drain the carbs, etc. Seriously. Alcohol burns much cooler than gasoline allowing much higher compression ratio's, much more ignition timing, much more boost on turbo and blower applications, etc... Reading plugs on alky is tricky. Bassicaly the plug should look new. Any color on porcelin is from additives or oil from motor. Intake guides, gasket leaking, rings etc. I always watch the electrode coming from the side of the plug, The "color" on this is an inducator of timing.

AvGas has no top end lube in it and there are additives for that. It is a general conscensus (sp?) from the people that play with their toys in the desert that once a engine has been run on AvGas for a while you can't switch it back to gasoline, it washes the rings out. I've talked with at least 5 people who've run AvGas in their jet boats, a few of them have run AvGas for over a decade with zero problems, and it has proven to be safe with engine with as much as 13.5:1 compression ratio's (use at your own risk).  ... one of these builders while I was in the shop had a 468 on a stand with 14.5:1. That was the specific engine referenced when he was explaining the fuel thing to me. That motor was getting strapped to the dyno and was going to be running straight 100 octane AV. I'm curious how the dyno run turned out on that one too... He was telling me that in regular use this particular engine would run perfect with a 1.5:1 ratio of AV gas to premium, which is about 95 octane.  It will sustain 12-1 compression no problem. I have run it in my dirt track cars and my drag car for years. I run it in my blower motor in my boat. It makes 13 lbs. boost and no intercooler.....no problem there either. It has lead in it...good for valves. Downside.... no upper cylinder lubrication. I fix that by mixing marvel mystery oil in it at a 100 to 1 ratio which actually raises the octane slightly also. Also another downside is it doesnt have as much explosive power ounce per ounce as compared to race gas.

2:1 will get you 97 octane
2.3:1 will get you 94

E85 acts like a combination of higher octane gasoline and alcohol. With E85 I've read that fuel consumption goes up 15 - 50% (I believe the variation is soley due to jetting and that 15% is a more viable comparison figure, read on). E85 is not nearly as corrosive as alcohol, the 15% mix with gas helps with that. E85 is Ethanol, not Methanol. Ethanol mixed with gasoline undergoes a chemical reaction when it sits too long in a tank, because it attracts more water, which leaves a non-combustable fluid on the bottom of your tank. 101 - 106 octane from the pump. Runs way cooler than gasoline. Has some of the charactoristics of alcohol but it's better than methanol, like not as dry on the upper side of the engine, not as corrosive on lines, tanks, etc. I went to GM school on the flexfuel vehicles, it does provide more power than super unleaded fuel. It also requires more of it to produce the correct air/fuel ratio, but we're olny talking jetting up a carb maybe 3-4 jet sizes to make the stuff work. E85 cleans all the old varnish and crap in the old tanks and lines. E85 will eat fiberglass too. May want to consider something to catch any sludge material, I guess a water/fuel seperator won't work, and also a
low fuel pressure kill switch. Those turbo guys are using aluminum gas tanks with no problems so the right fuel lines and a compatable pump should take care of fuel supply. Some guys say you need 10-15% more fuel and some all the way to 40% more. Most guys are using gas calibration and best power seems to be around 12.0 A/F ratio. Also need to drop sparkplugs down 3 sizes according to one of the manufacturers. It's not corrosive (as a lot of people claim that have never used it). I work on E85 vehicles everyday and they run great on the stuff! At the GM flex fuel classes I went too, they told us that GM vehicles used @20% more E85 than gas, but the 20% more also yielded lower egt's, lower intake temps, and @15% more power. E85 to top it off it is made 100% within the confines of the USA. Many people state that the fuel is corrosive and it could have adverse effects on aluminum fuel rails, injector o-rings and fuel lines, but so far in 9 months of testing we have seen no such side effects. E85 will give your tanks and fuel lines an "INSTANT CLEANING". For those of you who plan on running this stuff in your old varnished gas tanks, be carefull. The minute this fuel hits the system, it starts getting rid of all the gas tar that has built up over the years. I have been running it for a year in a weekend driver.  The gas tank sat full of E85 all winter long.  I haven't seen any indicators that this fuel is causing damage to anything. I had the gas tank out this spring and every thing looked fine. I haven't even needed to change the fuel filter. We ran E85 in a banshee, 72 hp on race fuel, 82 hp on E85. Just ran my first tank of E85 through. My fuel economy did not drop as much as the math suggests it should.  I averaged 23 mpg on E85, and on the same trip I was averaging 26 mpg on 93 octane.  So with my 50/50 hwy/cty commute it only dropped 10%.  I love this stuff, I just hope materials compatability doesn't become a problem and force me to change anything.  So far no problems though. That is half the loss the math shows it should be.  I added more timing, but primarily just where is was knock limited.  Car is much faster now.  This is a daily driven car, about 330 miles per week. The loss should be close to 30%, but it is much less in my case.  I am very happy with it as a fuel.  I haven't even had to change my fuel filter yet (I fully expected it to clog in 500 miles).  It smells NICE. E85 engine reacts more to even slight changes in a/f ration on E85 vs. gas, even at part throttle cruise. Cold start seems more crisp, and smells a little like coolant burning.
E85 To sum it all up
Why is Ethanol a better fuel?
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline --- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100, its blending octane when added to gasoline is rated at 118, so it is a very cost effective octane booster.
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the PCM problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can. That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more "longer" crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. Theorethically, the gain is 5% just by switching fuel. 350 hp X 5% = 15 hp, plus what can be gained from timing.
I just tried out E85 for myself. Its in a big ass cammed LS1 car, and the mph picked up from 89 to 92 in the 1/8. It didn't care too much as far as timing or richness. It seemed to like about 33 degrees advance, but would take up to 40 and ran the same (27 on 93 octane). It also didn't care too much about the AFR either. I varied it from 12.8 to 10.8 and it didn't pick up any or slow down. And my exhaust smells like rum now!!
E85, 1340 RWHP, Over a year in mine no issues at all.
•   E85 is easy to use and handle - E85 fueling equipment is slightly different and of similar cost to equipment used to store and dispense petroleum fuels. In some cases, it may be possible to convert your existing petroleum equipment to handle E85.
•   Using E85 reduces petroleum consumption - Use of E85 will reduce a fleet's overall use of petroleum and replace it with a renewable-based fuel produced ("grown") in the United States.
•   E85 is good for the environment - Beyond operational ease, E85 offers considerable environmental benefits. To learn more about fuel economy, greenhouse gas scores, and air pollution scores for individual vehicles, go to the U.S. Department of Energy/U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's on-line Fuel Economy Guide. You can search for E85-fueled vehicles by selecting "flexible-fueled vehicles" in the "Select Vehicle Type" pull-down menu. Once you are there, select individual vehicles to get fuel economy, greenhouse gas, and air pollution details.




I did not do any researching on race gas.
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« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2008, 06:51:55 PM »
Purely from a cost standpoint. Distance between Martinez Lake and Walters Camp is 35 miles, I do not know if that’s nautical miles or what… the fuel prices are rough guestimations as the cost of fuels change as much as the weather changes.

35 miles divided by 12 gallons of 91 octane gasoline = 2.92 mpg
12 gallons multiplied by $4.09 a gallon = $49.08

35 miles divided by 24 gallons of alcohol (hypothetically) = 1.46 mpg
24 gallons multiplied by $(unknown) a gallon = (unknown)

35 miles divided by 13.8 gallons of E85 (hypothetical, 15% increase over gasoline) = 2.54
13.8 gallons multiplied by $3.42 a gallon = $47.20

35 miles divided by (unknown) gallons of AvGas = (unknown)
(unknown) gallons multiplied by $4.69 a gallon (Brown Filed Airport) = (unknown)

Obviously this is not a very scientific way to come up with solid answers, it was just something I was playing around with. Also with the E85 there is little to no information on it in boating scenerio’s , without real world testing and documentation there really is no way to determine how much of an increase in jetting would be required. I’ve read some car drag racers that increased jetting 15% and got positive results and I’ve read articles where stock flex fuel vehicles used as much as 25% more E85 than gasoline for the same trips taken.

If anyone wants to fill in the “unknown’s”, have a ball and thanks.
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

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« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2008, 08:15:56 PM »
He was telling me that in regular use this particular engine would run perfect with a 1.5:1 ratio of AV gas to premium, which is about 95 octane.

2:1 will get you 97 octane
2.3:1 will get you 94
You've gotta figure it out on your own. Find out what your setup likes best. I don't know much, but the man to talk to is right down the street.

I know that people mix fuel all the time, but I was told by a former customer that was a fuel engineer with Chevron (?) that mixing fuel will not always give as good a results as buying the right fuel with the correct rating.  His point was that if you mix 87 with 91 you will not get 89 but something a little less. 

Just keep in mind that if the fuel you mixed the first time works good, don't be suprised if something goes foul the second time.
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« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2008, 08:18:25 PM »
Just run a diesel engine and convert to CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) its 63 cents a gallon in Utah right now!
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« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2008, 08:20:57 PM »
That Mazda rotary top ends like a MOFO on YouTube.  Got any RX7's laying around Sanford?   ;D
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« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2008, 08:59:30 PM »
... Got any RX7's laying around Sanford?   ;D

Sold 'em all  :banghead:  J/K No, I've never had a rotary. But a friend of mine has had two of them, turbo rotory's at that.
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« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2008, 07:47:24 AM »
Anybody have info on the CNG conversion for diesels?

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« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2008, 08:12:31 AM »
Anybody have info on the CNG conversion for diesels?

Try Google.  :-*
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« Reply #76 on: May 20, 2008, 03:38:02 PM »
Ive ran methanal for a few years in a 2 stoke motor sand drag app, and I must say im not a big fan. You will not save money on fuel taking this route. I mixed 10 percent nitro with it sometimes. The most hp you will see is 20-40% increse.More if you mix nitro and its not cheep. You also have to jet up with nitro. Thats if the jetting is dead on.  40% is the sarting point of running n20 with stock components witch I now use. With methanol you can not use a plug for reading and was very hard for me to dial. I burned up a hand full of pistons running lean. Lean is mean. If you using a efi or mfi It should be fairly easy to tune. also is very corrosive. On time i forgot to purge the motor, (run race fuel with oil through the motor after use),And after one night the crank and rod assy was completly rusted solid. Kills seals gaskets and fuel lines very fast. I was lucky to last one seasion. I think it is the way to go with forced induction applacations going for max hp. I personaly feel the Nitrous is a lot more simple and better route to go for na or fi.Its fairly cheep for a kit and 3-4$ a pound. You get good milige and run less load on the motor when your cruising and turn on the heat when you feel like it.Less maitainence. You can get way more power using nitrous. 50%-100%+. Im currently running a 300 hp nitrous set up on my 468 with a fast efi. the computer does everything. retard, add fuel, o2 senser,wot switch, ramp time, rev limiter ext. would do the same with alky but like I said With n2o I get the milige when I want it and when I want to haul A$$ I push a button. Oh yea I dont run av fuel because it a antifreeze in it and will rust engine parts. I can go on and on about fuel and n20. check out the vp site and see how they rate there fuel and how gas stations rate there fuel, its interesting.
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« Reply #77 on: May 20, 2008, 06:25:18 PM »
wow next time ill proof read my post. lol sorry for the bad grammer, not a typer.
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crewchief22

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« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2008, 06:33:18 PM »
A lot of good information in it though.
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« Reply #79 on: May 20, 2008, 09:36:55 PM »
... One time i forgot to purge the motor, (run race fuel with oil through the motor after use),And after one night the crank and rod assy was completly rusted solid. Kills seals gaskets and fuel lines very fast. I was lucky to last one seasion...

First off, thanks for the great post. ;)

What is purging the motor and exactly how is it done?

I'm not trying to argue... but I talked to a guy about his boat for quite some time, he's been running his MFI BBC on alcohol for 3 years with zero problems. He said he's never had to clean anything or replace any parts. Very frequent oil changes. He also said he either stores it completely empty (fuel) or completely full. So maybe it's a different type of fuel?  ???
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ROMPERSTOMPER

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« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2008, 01:01:23 AM »
Purging the motor is after your done for the day you run regular fuel mixed with oil through the motor to lubracate it. 2-stroke motors dont run seperate motor oil to lube the crank and rod-lower end. thats why you run mixed gas. oil in the fuel to lube the lower end. I would use a squeze water bottle with a fuel ine on the end and disconnect the tank line. start the bike and when it starts to run like shit cause its jetted so fat you know the motor is fully purged. 4-stroke motors may not require this because of its seperate oiling system. the engine sleves and rings on a 4-stroke are still steel witch i would think would rust over night with out purging. any kind of fi will work way beter with alky (what I ran) because there are no carbs. Carbs have tons of seals gaskets and metal that can and will corrode after time. mfi is good because most setups run stainless lines and an hoses. Like anything, If you take your time and tune it rite im shure you can get it to be fairly easy to use and reliable. I would learn as much as possibe about it before you switch over to alky. I learned the hard way, $$ and by the time I had it down I was over it. I heard ethanal is less corossive but im not sure. I have to admit the the diference is very impressive. I believe n02 and alky not together can both be reliable if your expierenced with it and matain its cons. I prefer n02 myself
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