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Carburater Selection

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78 Crusader

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« on: November 05, 2010, 06:40:37 AM »
I'm running a BBF 540 with a Holley 750 Vacuum secondaries L3310. I was running wide open on Saturday, giving it hell when the motor died...actually it acted as if it was running out of fuel and then died. I turned the key off, turned it back on and listened for the fuel pump, hit the accelerator twice and it came back to life.

I'm running a summit racing fuel pump rated at 140 GPH at 14 psi and I have the fuel pressure regulated at 6 1/2 psi. I have new fuel lines, new fuel filter and a full tank of gas. Should a 540 BBF be using the Holley 750 L3310 carb? I'm thinking that I may not have enough carb for this motor. To partially answer my own question, I'm running 4,700 rpms currently. I bolted on a friends Barry Grant Mighty Demon 850 the other day and picked up 400 rpm and 7 mph top end. So, should I go with a larger carb or find a decent Holley 750 DP with mechanical secondaries?
Cliff
1978 21' Crusader, Berkely Jet, 540 CID BBF
1966 13' Boston Whaler, 40hp Yamaha egg beater


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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2010, 08:19:39 AM »
The reason it quit on you and the fact that the carb is too small are two different issues.   Too small of a carb will not starve the engine of fuel.  And yes, you need more carb.  I'd run a dominator on
A 540

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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2010, 08:22:22 AM »
The reason it quit on you and the fact that the carb is too small are two different issues.   Too small of a carb will not starve the engine of fuel.  And yes, you need more carb.  I'd run a dominator on
A 540


X2 And it sounds like you need bigger fuel lines!
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2010, 08:29:13 AM »
X3 on the bigger carb, I would doubt it seriously if you ran it out of fuel running balls out, something else is amiss....

The 750 will use less fuel than the 850, so it would stand to reason that there is either something wrong with the 750 mechanically, or another system has a poltergeist.

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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2010, 08:38:26 AM »
A little more information is needed for you guys. When I bought the boat two months ago, it had a Mr. Gasket fuel pump, which I swapped out immediately. Also it had clogged fuel filters which were replaced with Wix fuel Filters. Also, I used 3/8 inch fuel line as replacement hose. Are you saying the 3/8 line is too small of a diameter?



The reason it quit on you and the fact that the carb is too small are two different issues.   Too small of a carb will not starve the engine of fuel.  And yes, you need more carb.  I'd run a dominator on
A 540

What size Dominator?
Cliff
1978 21' Crusader, Berkely Jet, 540 CID BBF
1966 13' Boston Whaler, 40hp Yamaha egg beater

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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2010, 09:19:53 AM »
1050 or 1150 Dominator is what I'd run. Sounds like a pretty badass motor. Problem is, you should change the intake to a dommy flange as well, or you'll need adaptors which might affect the impact of the dominator. Might want to consider a 950 4150 base carb.   ;D  I also think the 3/8 fuel hose is just fine. Personally, and I like mechanicals over electric on these things, I only run Clay Smith mechanical pumps. I really view the Summit brand as just cheap Chinese copies of a Holley (The Mr Gasket you tossed is the same thing as the Holley). Be careful dealing with them over the phone as they are interested in their Gross Margin as much as anyone. It's important to remember we operate these boats in the 3000-6000 rpm range ALL THE TIME, not the same as a street engine.  ;)

I had the same dying out at WFO part "like it was running out of gas" with Pickle at the end of last year and part of this year. Turns out it was a combination of an internal vaccum leak on the 750 (Warped metering block), a PCV valve and a serious vacuum leak at the carb base (also warped). That carb has been retired to "parts carb" status,  ;) . It now runs an 850 Vac Sec'y just fine, and might be just a coincidence, but the Vac advance HEI was replaced with a Mechanical Mallory Unilite, 6AL box and Procoil as well. This is on a pretty mild 454 Chebbie though, but holds 5200 RPM all day long if you want it to.  :thumbup:

Ray
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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2010, 11:07:39 AM »
Thanks IRR. I botled on a Buddies Demon 850 and that really woke the motor up....I got about 5,100 rpms outta her. I'm thinking about a Stealth intake. Right now there's an Edlebrok torker II intake on the 540....once again, parts from the prior owner.

As this is a Mini day cruiser and a family boat, I'm not looking for an ultra high performance jet boat....just something strong, reliable and able to pull tubes/skiers all day long. But, when I feel the need to race another cruiser.....well I got a little sumthin' sumthin' for 'em.......lol.  :o

I thought the Summet racing fuel pump was a pretty good pump? Some friends I got it from seemed to think so. Are they really just Chinese crap?
Cliff
1978 21' Crusader, Berkely Jet, 540 CID BBF
1966 13' Boston Whaler, 40hp Yamaha egg beater

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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2010, 03:16:01 PM »
I thought the Summet racing fuel pump was a pretty good pump? Some friends I got it from seemed to think so. Are they really just Chinese crap?

That's just my opinion. I don't know where they source their house brands from really. When I bought Moo, it had a fresh 460 with a thrown #1 rod. The engine had a Summit pan, roller rockers and fuel pump on in. The pan seemed pretty thin and cheesy to me, so it's just a parts bin now, and the kids made christmas tree decorations out of the roller rockers.......... :screwy:

The fuel pump is still laying around here somewhere, never used it. I put a Clay Smith on the boat when I built it. With twin 750's, would hold 7 PSI forever on 3/8" hoses and a pretty restrictive electric tank selector valve.  ;)

On a Mini Day though, enclosed engine compartment, motor sounds much milder than it's 540 CI would indicate, you're still going to have to have to go with a Dominator to get above the 850 CFM for a marine rated carb. I'd be doing it! All stock marine 460's came with 750's, and from what I've seen and experienced, an 850 wakes them up a LOT. You've got a helluva lot more cubes (around +20% ) even if the cam is about stock.

If you do this, or, if it were "ME", I'd be looking at the Stealth intake as well, or a Victor with a dommy flange and the 1050 Marine Dominator. They do not make a 950 CFM 4150 in a marine version. There's more to these marine carbs than just the "J" vent tubes!  ;) And since I seem to have, and be gaining more, experience with burning boats, I will not run a street/strip carb on any boat, enclosed engine or not.  :thumbup:  I'd also be looking at Lightning water jacketed headers............ ;D

Ray
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« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2010, 10:28:24 PM »
Thanks IRR.

The guy I bought it from is a Ford mechanic near San Antonio and he said that he and his father in-law stroked the 460 to a 540.....and that's all I know. He said that it has a "Mild" cam in it however I'm really not sure what is really in it. I cant seem to get a hold of the PO so I either believe it is indeed stroked or I tear the motor down and check for myself.

I agree with you concerning the "Marine" carb.....I have small kids that are with me all the time and also since I spent 21 years in the Aviation field, both flying and fixing, I am a safety conscious person. I'll look into the 1050 marine Dominator and see what I can find.

I pulled the plugs and they are currently a "Dark paper bag brown" and didn't have any carbon built up on them.

Currently I have Hardin logs with snails for exhaust. I've also started looking into Water jacketed headers too.....just takes time. If I can't get the motor to"breath" there's no sense in spending a bunch of money on her to get her to run right. A new carb and intake would of course mean new exhaust too.

All it takes is money! Lol.

Thanks again.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 10:32:20 PM by 78 Crusader »
Cliff
1978 21' Crusader, Berkely Jet, 540 CID BBF
1966 13' Boston Whaler, 40hp Yamaha egg beater

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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2010, 12:50:08 AM »
thread jack

Hey 78 Crusader, in SoCal right now, but boat is in Texas. Home lake is Ray Hubbard. Thinking carb too. My 460 BBF has a 650 and needs more. Seems like your motor could use a larger carb. Your starvation problem sounds familiar. My boat will run great for an hour of ragging, and then die. Still trying to sort out the gremins.

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« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2010, 12:57:26 AM »
Gremlins! I meant gremlins. Damn keyboard!

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« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2010, 02:14:39 AM »
The differene of a marine carb is the vent tubes, if the carb over vents the fuel goes directly back into the carb rather than the boat. You can buy them ( J tubes) from holley or make them.

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« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2010, 06:57:31 AM »
thread jack

Hey 78 Crusader, in SoCal right now, but boat is in Texas. Home lake is Ray Hubbard. Thinking carb too. My 460 BBF has a 650 and needs more. Seems like your motor could use a larger carb. Your starvation problem sounds familiar. My boat will run great for an hour of ragging, and then die. Still trying to sort out the gremins.

Yep, sounds like a carb issue to me too!

We boat mostly in Lavon and have quite a few jets that do the same. I hear that in the spring, the North Texas Jet Boat Club (NTJBC) might start going over to Ray Hubbard on Thursday nights to listen to the live bands from the water. I think it's over near where the Bass pro shop is located, not sure. You should joing us this spring!
Cliff
1978 21' Crusader, Berkely Jet, 540 CID BBF
1966 13' Boston Whaler, 40hp Yamaha egg beater

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« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2010, 07:06:18 AM »
guys, i think we are looking at his cid 540 and saying that thing needs a BIG carb. now we know it wants more due to him changing to an 850 and picking up rpm and mph.

now that being said, what heads and cam do you have? you are running logs and the dominator may be too much depending on the heads and cam.


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« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2010, 07:15:07 AM »
guys, i think we are looking at his cid 540 and saying that thing needs a BIG carb. now we know it wants more due to him changing to an 850 and picking up rpm and mph.

now that being said, what heads and cam do you have? you are running logs and the dominator may be too much depending on the heads and cam.



Ralph, I'm running DOVE-C heads and I'm not sure if they've been worked or not. I'm also running a Mallory ignition system.
Cliff
1978 21' Crusader, Berkely Jet, 540 CID BBF
1966 13' Boston Whaler, 40hp Yamaha egg beater

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« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2010, 07:55:59 AM »
pump gas? solid cam or hyd

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« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2010, 08:22:58 AM »
I'm running pump gas 93 or 87 octane. It doesn't seem to mind the 87 octane at all. Not sure about the cam. The PO said it was a "mild cam" when be built it but didn't have the specifics.
Cliff
1978 21' Crusader, Berkely Jet, 540 CID BBF
1966 13' Boston Whaler, 40hp Yamaha egg beater

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« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2010, 10:22:29 AM »
The differene of a marine carb is the vent tubes, if the carb over vents the fuel goes directly back into the carb rather than the boat. You can buy them ( J tubes) from holley or make them.

This from CP Performance. There's more to it than the vent tubes. Special throttle shafts, seals...........and more.  ;)

READ BEFORE YOU BUY!
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. Right? Well, maybe. Carburetors are carburetors, but only marine carburetors should be used on boats. It's true that marine carburetors started life as regular automotive carburetors but then each took divergent paths.

Marine carburetors have certain modifications that make them uniquely adaptable and legal for marine usage. "Legal" meaning that it has the ability to pass the U.S. Coast Guard test for marine carburetors. Folks, I'm not talking about Paris Island here, either. The main qualification that a marine carburetor must meet (as set down by the U.S. Coast Guard) is that if the carburetor should "flood" only .5cc of fuel is allowed to escape in a period of 30 seconds. There's also a "backfire" test which confirms the ability of carburetors/flame arrestor combination to contain the backfire. For this reason a gasket is not used between the carburetor air horn flange and the flame arrestor. It's possible that this gasket could become saturated with fuel (if the carburetor should flood) and become a potential fire source as a result.

The primary areas of a carburetor that require some sort of modification to meet these requirements include the fuel bowl vent tubes and throttle shafts. The vent tubes of a marine carburetor are bent inwards so that the tube looks like an inverted "J". These tubes oftentimes are referred to as "J" tubes, as a result. The reason for bending the tubes inward is that if flooding should occur, the fuel that would normally come out of the fuel bowl vent tube is rerouted back into the carburetor.

Throttle shafts also get special machining attention. Shafts are "grooved" and "slabbed" to prevent fuel from exiting out the throttle shaft if flooding should occur. When a carburetor floods fuel will end up "puddling" on the throttle plates. A non-marine carburetor will allow this fuel to seep out of the throttle shaft ends and onto the manifold. This is not allowed on a marine carburetor because normally the engine is situated in an enclosed bilge where potentially deadly gasoline fuel fumes can accumulate. Throttle shafts that are "grooved" and "slabbed" channel the flooded fuel safely down into the intake manifold. With no raw fuel allowed to puddle on the manifold outside the carburetor, there is no chance of deadly fuel fumes to accumulate in the bilge and no chance of explosion or fire.

For these reasons an automotive carburetor should NEVER be used in a marine application

Ray
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 10:26:40 AM by IRRebel »
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« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2010, 11:37:46 AM »
IRR. I am absolutely going to go with a Marine carb. Thanks for the explanation.
Cliff
1978 21' Crusader, Berkely Jet, 540 CID BBF
1966 13' Boston Whaler, 40hp Yamaha egg beater

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« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2010, 12:39:43 PM »
This from CP Performance. There's more to it than the vent tubes. Special throttle shafts, seals...........and more.  ;)

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« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2010, 02:22:24 PM »
How many folks on here are running "marine" carbs?
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« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2010, 03:15:01 PM »
How many folks on here are running "marine" carbs?

Out of our five boats (no, not just me...) three have marine spec carbs, the two open engine jets have automotive/high performance carbs... ;)

Realistically, it has to have an SAE designation for a Coast Guard rating to even apply, not just have the right "pieces"...They are looking for the sticker/tag on them, much like CARB exempt numbers for SMOG... :sly:

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« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2010, 07:41:53 PM »
My Holley 650 has a marine tag on it.  Sounds like that's a good thing! What about the Demon, since it is a unique design? The marine carbs are more $ than auto. Dizzy has marine tag too. What's the dizzy difference.

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« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2010, 10:38:53 PM »
How many folks on here are running "marine" carbs?

Every boat I have, had (Save for the one that caused this thinking), or will have.

My only exception is a current project motor, but I'm quite sure even the Coast Guard is gonna have trouble figuring out if a Crower MFI unit meets standards or not. It will have a rather large flame arrestor though!  :thumbup:

Saving a couple hundo on a carb isn't worth losing a $5k boat that most of us have over $10K in. Let alone a life, IMHO.

I will give you that most of us are running street carbs, but for whatever reason, probably the U-Tube video, I get pics and video sent to me from everywhere of burned up jet/V-Drive boats. Latest was a Scorpion in Missouri I think.  :screwy:  It happens much more often than you think!

Ray
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« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2010, 11:24:01 PM »
Dizzy has marine tag too. What's the dizzy difference.

I've not figured that one out either. Maybe Glenn will know. I would assume something to do with spark retention, but Moo had a Marine rated Unilite that is indistinguishable from the 4 other "regular" BBF Unilites I have, save for it has a blue cap and screws required to secure it.

OC2Vegas has the only other Unilte I've ever seen like Moo's. His is on a BBC.

Ray
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 12:58:13 AM by IRRebel »
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