Clearance issues...

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HomeBlown57

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« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2011, 08:17:50 AM »
MMMM twizzlers.



HomeBlown57

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« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2011, 08:18:43 AM »
Not that I am watching this post and PMing behind everyones backs or anything!

HomeBlown57

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« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2011, 08:20:33 AM »
Number 5 tapers .0005 all others have no taper wether from main to main or within each main.

Nordie

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« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2011, 08:21:30 AM »
ron have an iced mccafe for me would ya?


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Brad @ SCJB

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« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2011, 08:23:32 AM »
Not that I am watching this post and PMing behind everyones backs or anything!

Haha...HB57 has been helpin me out with this build.

Josh, we only got the one measurement after the line bore. Before the line bore we got many different measurements...then figired out I needed the line bore....maybe I can coax hime over with in n out and diet dr pepper to measure it for me again....ill throw in a pack of twizzlers too ronnie.
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
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lbhsbz

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« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2011, 08:25:28 AM »
Was not decked or bored....only line bored. Replaced #4 cap. It was cooked bad.

I disagree with changing the reference point (mains) without correcting all the other things that need to be square and aligned to the crank.  If that was my block, it would probably be in the trash at this point.  I can't stand shops that don't understand how things work

Nordie

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« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2011, 08:28:26 AM »
clearance issues is always a fun topic! Brad if your half asleep it might be time to either take a nap, or hit the pipe lol! Measure, Measure, Measure!


If im not posting..I'm pooping!

Brad @ SCJB

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« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2011, 08:30:41 AM »
I disagree with changing the reference point (mains) without correcting all the other things that need to be square and aligned to the crank.  If that was my block, it would probably be in the trash at this point.  I can't stand shops that don't understand how things work

Well, you're quick to jump to conclusions there buddy. Why do you assume its junk and the shop fubar'd it up? I know you are bitter about machine shops, but reserve your emotions here. I'm not fond of throwing this block in the trash either as you suggested.
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HomeBlown57

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« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2011, 08:35:38 AM »
Brad, in the interest of saving you time, I will sell you the blower motor. $3k short $6k long, $9k hook up fuel line and wires and go. I need yours as a core. 8-71 dominators............ Credit card via PayPal do it as a gift.

Brad @ SCJB

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« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2011, 08:37:43 AM »
I got a check at home waiting for you.
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Brendella Pickle

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« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2011, 08:39:54 AM »
Brad, in the interest of saving you time, I will sell you the blower motor. $3k short $6k long, $9k hook up fuel line and wires and go. I need yours as a core. 8-71 dominators............ Credit card via PayPal do it as a gift.

DO IT, DO IT

HomeBlown57

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« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2011, 08:42:11 AM »
Pat, do you know what the finished align hone ID should be if correct? Or anyone?
PS LBHSBZ is a machinist, he has tighter tolerances than those that are not machinists. His opinion counts, even if you do not agree.

lbhsbz

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« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2011, 08:42:33 AM »
Well, you're quick to jump to conclusions there buddy. Why do you assume its junk and the shop fubar'd it up? I know you are bitter about machine shops, but reserve your emotions here. I'm not fond of throwing this block in the trash either as you suggested.

Because they moved the crank without moving the stuff that references off the crank.  I'm not assuming the shop fubar'd it up, you told me they fubar'd it up with your measurements...this stands as a fact.  The question still remains though...how bad they fubar'd it up. 

The correct order of operation for block machine work is:

1: main bores...becuase all other operations reference from this.

2: everything else.

You can't do everything else, then do the crank.  If one were to draw an imaginary line down the center of the cylinder bore, it should intersect the exact centerline of the mains.  This is how it was done at the factory.  When you leave the cylinders alone and remachine the main bores, you're moving the crank up in the block, so now our cylinder centerline intersects below the main centerline.   This is what your block looks like now...and the decks aren't square to the mains either, which doesn't really matter in this case.

This is why you need to measure where the crank is now in relation to where it should be....to see how far they cut into the block when they did the mains.  You need this information for several reasons...first one being....see if you can get a timing chain that's short enough to fit without an inch of slop in it, and secondly...to see how far you are away from square.  I would probably allow a few thousandths, but not much more unless the bores and deck were remachined to square everything back up. 

This will also change your compression ratio somewhat, because now the pistons be higher in the cylinder at TDC...it may be a problem, it may not...but we won't know without measuring it.

I have no problem with machine shops.  I have a problem with machinists who don't "get it", and do work like this without thinking twice about it.  Its hard work to do things right....people don't like to work hard.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 10:18:40 AM by lbhsbz »

HomeBlown57

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« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2011, 08:43:52 AM »
Ooooohhhhh a check, we will have wait 7-10 business days. Don't worry I'm in bed with a banker, we may be able to cut a few days off of that!

HomeBlown57

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« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2011, 08:48:33 AM »
Don't you all have jobs??? What are you doing playing on the computer at work? Brad is the only one that isn't logged in!! HAH

HomeBlown57

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« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2011, 09:00:12 AM »
YEAH!!! GET BACK TO WORK!

IRRebel

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« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2011, 10:04:47 AM »
Get some rest Bud!  ;)  I had to re read all this 3 times to wrap my head around it.

Pat is correct, I would be double checking to ensure the main bores are square fore and aft of the cam bores, and not tapered, etc. Other than that, assuming all is well there, the crank is .027 under, the bearings are expecting a .030 under crank and you still have clearance. I fail to see where the bearings could possibly be too thin to scotchbrite the backsides and taylor fit each one to the clearance you're after...... ???

Ray
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit what a ride!"---Crewcheif22 AKA Keith

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« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2011, 10:35:38 AM »
I have a 4 bolt chevy 454...std bore.

I siezed the bottom end of it last summer. I had the forged crank turned 30 over on mains, and 20 over on rods.....the block got line bored, and rods resized.

Crank measures out to .027 and I have .030 bearings, but clearances are showing .0015 or .002 at best on the mains. Rods are .003 (ideal) with a .020 bearing. (Using tools, not plasti-gauge)

What do you guys suggest to do? Re-line bore the block? Turn a thou or 2 off the crank? Or just run it?

This is a mild build that's going in a cruiser.
Technically, the current combo and machine work as it stands could be made to work just fine as-is, given the day cruiser application and the (presumably) ~400 hp build.

That being said, I would suggest a different approach:

A crankshaft that is supposed to be turned to -0.030" and is only at -0.027" is absolutely not within tolerance as called out for a 0.030" undersize...and for which you paid.  Based on that, you should, 1)  take the crankshaft back to the shop and have them verify that the freshly cut mains are outside of specification, 2) the shop should then happily turn the crankshaft to a true -0.030" without further charging you, and, 3) your bearings will then allow a clearance that you feel comfortable.

It's that simple. :)

LO
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 10:37:41 AM by LakesOnly »

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lbhsbz

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« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2011, 10:40:37 AM »
STD crank main journals should measure 2.7489-2.7490, which would make a .030" under crank measure 2.7189-2.7190.

The Main bores, without the bearings installed should measure 2.937-2.938

crank centerline to cam centerline should be 5.150"...   ... Measure the cam bearing bore and the front main bore, add 'em together and divide by two, then measure the short distance with some calipers between the main and cam bearings.  Add these numbers together and you'll have the centerline distance.  How does that compare to the blueprint spec of 5.150.

If you want to have even more fun, do this same thing at the back of the block (you'll have to knock out the steel freeze plug behind the cam) to compare your front to rear numbers to see if the cam is parallel to the crank.

Once you've got this centerline distance, then you can start looking for a shorter timing chain that will work for ya.

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« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2011, 10:44:36 AM »

It's that simple. :)

LO

I don't think it is...if his crank is truely at .027" under, where is the clearance coming from that he's measuring?  He shouldn't have ANY clearance with this crank if all else is correct.

Brad @ SCJB

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« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2011, 10:51:29 AM »
the .027 number was an assumption off my backwards logic. so lets please disregard that number from here on out.

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lbhsbz

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« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2011, 10:55:37 AM »
OK, whats the number then

Nordie

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« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2011, 10:57:17 AM »
OK, whats the number then

im thinking .033  ;)


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« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2011, 11:02:52 AM »
the .027 number was an assumption off my backwards logic. so lets please disregard that number from here on out.
Brad you need to determine the main journal diameter before it can be shown whether the journal has been properly cut or if it is actually undersize as originally believed. The actual dimensions will determine the path taken. Regardless, it is fixable. Anything may be fixed in a machine shop.  8)

I don't think it is...if his crank is truely at .027" under, where is the clearance coming from that he's measuring?  He shouldn't have ANY clearance with this crank if all else is correct.
Getting back to the point as originally perceived and discussed (debated) by me and your reply: If in fact the mains are 0.027" undersize, then whether they provide any clearance or not on paper is moot and the reference data you provided is too-little-too-late. The fact is that if there is a measured 0.0015" of clearance and IF the journals are -0.0027" then simply turning them to the high side of specification would give the main clearance desired by the OP.  It really IS that simple. Ever hear of the K.I.S.S. method?   We are building a day cruiser engine, not a swiss watch F1 engine.

LO
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 11:07:08 AM by LakesOnly »

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Brad @ SCJB

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« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2011, 11:05:18 AM »
OK, whats the number then

I gotta bribe HomeBlown57 to come back over with his micrometer and measure my parts.



.....someone better run with that one.
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
  • Boat #2: 1982 Eliminator Sprint

 


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