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ford heads

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nathan72

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« on: July 09, 2009, 10:47:31 AM »
D1ve heads are they any good iv ben looken for a set of dove head ?
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LakesOnly

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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2009, 02:41:32 PM »
D1ve heads are they any good iv ben looken for a set of dove head ?

Wow, not many D1VE cylinder heads around. Are you sure that's the number on the cylinder head casting (and not the cylinder block)? Please post a picture or email me one.

To answer your question, the D1VE cylinder head castings are usually identical to D0VE castings. But I need to see which valve train your D1VE heads have, and also I'll bet they are drilled for Thermactor (smog pump passages).

LO

p.s.: We've got D0VE heads, should you need them, in any form: bare castings to fuly ported and ready to bolt on.

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IRRebel

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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2009, 03:42:14 PM »
Since we're on the subject, I was wondering Paul. What's the significant difference, if any, from the normal D3VE-A2A heads on nearly every Marine 460 I've seen and the Dove C's?  Any appreciable difference really? I see people really touting the Dove-C's as if they are the Holy Grail of heads, yet I run a set of ported and polished early C9's (Basically), and they perform REALLY well.

Just bought another complete, running Hardin Marine 460 and am curious if I should even bother with changing out the heads.

Ray
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit what a ride!"---Crewcheif22 AKA Keith

Ralph Brunt

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« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2009, 04:48:34 PM »
Since we're on the subject, I was wondering Paul. What's the significant difference, if any, from the normal D3VE-A2A heads on nearly every Marine 460 I've seen and the Dove C's?  Any appreciable difference really? I see people really touting the Dove-C's as if they are the Holy Grail of heads, yet I run a set of ported and polished early C9's (Basically), and they perform REALLY well.

Just bought another complete, running Hardin Marine 460 and am curious if I should even bother with changing out the heads.

Ray
the cc's are different in the combustion chamber as well as the valve train, other than that they are within a few cfm of each other. paul will give you further details cause thats all i know

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« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2009, 05:08:17 PM »
Wasn't happy with my answer so here ya go  from the 460 website
Head Castings

The early iron castings, C8VE,C9VE, and DOVE heads are basically all the same. Some castings have thermact-air bosses and drilled passages, and some do not. The size of the thermact-air bosses also varies. With-in the three casting, there is also engineering revisions, i.e. DOVE-A, DOVE-B, DOVE-C. Chamber size is about 77 cc, and can vary +/- from that. The stock size valves in these heads are 2.08 for the intake and 1.65 for the exhaust. These heads can have 2.25 intake and 1.76 exhaust valves installed. The exhaust port shape is restricted quite a bit, and porting helps. After proper porting, all three casting flow the same. It should be noted, not only for these factory cast iron heads, that not only should the exhaust be ported, but the intake as well.

The next batch of casting is; D3VE, E6TE, and F8TE. These heads are basically all the same. The E6s and F8s were cast as replacements for the D3s. Most of these casting have thermact-air bosses and drilled passages, but a few D3 castings do not drilled thermact-air passages. Chamber size varies from 92 cc to 100cc, so it is important to cc the heads. The chamber is .100 deeper than the early heads, and the valves are shorted that much as well. When replacing these heads with the early heads, the valves will be .100 closer to the piston, so take that into consideration. The stock size valves in these heads are 2.08 for the intake and 1.65 for the exhaust. These heads can have 2.25 intake and 1.76 exhaust valves installed. The exhaust port shape is restricted the most out of all the factory cast iron heads. After proper porting, all three casting flow the same. The exhaust cannot be make to flow like the early castings due to the short-turn on the exhaust being .100 shorter.

Maximum Valve Lifts With Stock Heads

Courtesy of Randy Malik

Unmachined D3's with production length valves and stock retainers will allow about .560"valve lift MAXIMUM; maybe some heads might allow very slightly more.

Maximum Power from Ported Heads

Courtesy of Scott Johnson

With well worked max effort dove heads you can expect a maximum of about 700 to 725 HP given the intake port flow capabilities of the dove intake port.

On a 557 cubic inch motor, you can get 700 HP at 6K rpm with a Comp Cams XR292R cam and 10.6 to 1 compression ratio.

A 472 can make 718 hp at 7200 rpm with about 20 degrees more duration, higher valve lift and two points more c/r.
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« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2009, 05:08:58 PM »
What's the significant difference, if any, from the normal D3VE-A2A heads on nearly every Marine 460 I've seen and the Dove C's?  Any appreciable difference really? I see people really touting the Dove-C's as if they are the Holy Grail of heads, yet I run a set of ported and polished early C9's (Basically), and they perform REALLY well.

Just bought another complete, running Hardin Marine 460 and am curious if I should even bother with changing out the heads.

Ray
Ray,

C8VE-A, C8VE-E, C9VE-A, D0VE-A, and D0VE-C heads are all identical to one another in their overall configurations.  The only possible difference is  that the D0VE heads (A or C) may or may not be drilled for Thermactor, while the C8 and C9 heads are never drilled for Thermactor.

My speculation is that the D0VE-C heads are the sought-after castings simply because that casting number spells "DOVE" (actually it's "D," "Zero," "V," "E") and this makes them easy to both remember and also to identify. But C8, C9, D0VE they're all essentially the same head.  Frankly I have a preference for C9VE castings over the D0VEs because they are never drilled for the air pump passages, and so I can shape the port pretty much however I wish without worrying about breaking into that passaage. For example, I am currently working a pair of C9VE's that now have a CJ-style exhaust port where that roof is raised up so high  that doing the same with air pimp head would be trouble for sure.

We refer to the C8VE, C9VE and D0VE castings as the "early-style" heads, and the D3VE casting as the "late-style" head

  • Early-style heads have a 77cc combustion chamber as cast; D3VE's have a 95 cc combustion chamber as cast.
  • Early-style heads have a stud rocker valve train which makes roller rocker upgrades easy; D3VE's have a pedestal-style valve train which makes roller rocker upgrades more involved.
  • Early-style heads have a slightly better exhaust port; D3VE's have a slightly inferior exhaust port.
The above bullets are why most poeple want the early-style castings over the late style D3VE heads.  But here's the clincher. Most of what I have bulletted above is no longer true. It's just that the majority of enthusiasts have not yet learned about this. They still see the 1973-issue D3VE head as the "smogger head."  But consider the following:

  • 95cc D3Ve's and 0.030" flat tops make a ~9.5:1 compression ratio 460, which is fine for most people and mild performance builds. These heads were Ford's reply to the 1970's emmissions crisis and gas wars, and so they can work really well with pump gas performance builds.
  • You can now buy roller rockers that work with the pedestal-style vavle train (Scorpion and Harland Sharp). Good to about 0.600" lift hydraulic cams.
  • The secret to the D3VE's exhaust port has been unlocked and they can flow almost as good as the early-style heads (and just as good on the intake port).
I am currently working on D3VE's that I expect to support in excess of 700 hp on carbs and gas (e.g., no power adders).

The 460 Marine engine has only about 7.7:1 compression ratio (Exception: King Cobra 460 = 9:1). Therefore, a simple performance upgrade is to swap out the heads for early-style heads....instant 1.5 points of compression increase. That's why it's a ocmmon upgrade.

LO

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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2009, 05:09:10 PM »
and more
 Stock Small Port Cast Iron Head Flow Numbers

E7TE "Fuelie" Head

Courtesy of Scott Johnson

Unported

.100=58/42
.200=117/88
.300=174/117
.400=196/131
.500=224/137
.600=239/141
.700=247/142

Ported

.100=74/54
.200=147/103
.300=211/137
.400=263/169
.500=289/191
.600=303/206
.700=312/219

F3TE "Fuelie" Head

Courtesy of Scott Johnson

2.19 x 1.76

Ported

.100=87/82
.200=163/116
.300=227/150
.400=275/175
.500=305/199
.600=316/215
.700=326/222

D3VE Head

Courtesy of Scott Johnson

Unported

.100=62/47
.200=119/87
.300=189/119
.400=236/125
.500=263/129
.600=270/129

Ported Stage 2 standard flange on intake and Stage 2 on exhaust

.100=95/60
.200=163/107
.300=223/140
.400=268/168
.500=301/195
.600=325/202
.700=342/202
.800=355/202

DOVE Head (C8 and C9 heads will be similar)

Courtesy of Scott Johnson

Unported

.100=62/47
.200=119/87
.300=189/119
.400=236/134
.500=263/135
.600=279/135
.700=289/135

Ported Stage 2 standard flange on intake and Stage 2 on exhaust

.100=97/60
.200=174/107
.300=251/140
.400=292/168
.500=307/195
.600=322/212
.700=337/220
.800=349/220

Maximum effort porting with blazing on intake and exhaust with Victor match
2.2 Intake and 1.8 Exhaust Valves

.100=78/70
.200=160/115
.300=223/157
.400=271/187
.500=300/200
.600=328/215
.700=339/222
.800=354/227

D2OE Police Interceptor Head

Ported D20E PI heads. Intake port and bowl opened up to 310cc. Exhaust just cleaned up with minor grinding. Intake valve used was Ferrea F5031 (2.25). Exhaust valve used was Ford Motorsport tulip A429 (1.76). 45 degree seats with back cut on intake valve. Hardened exhaust seats are a little big ID - about 1.588" - so might have hurt flow. Intake valve is unshrouded.

No pipe.

.100=84/65
.200=176/100
.300=246/142
.400=298/174
.500=314/182
.600=329/194
.700=339/199
.800=348/199
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Glasscutter, Skip, OC2  Nordie and many more nail me good every time, relentlessly, I love those guys!

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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2009, 05:23:27 PM »
Ralph, Paul, Thank you both, there's a ton of information there for me to process. I think I'm fine with the stock D3VE's on this particular engine and it's purpose, but it is GREAT information, as I have another 460 that I was planning to put in where this one is now going, and now it needs to be "better" than the Moo. Now I know what to look for to do just that. (Without all the aluminum heads, etc, wanna stick with mostly factory parts on this engine build).

Thanks Guys! Didn't want to have to try and find, then go through the expense on the D2OE heads I did on the Moo again! (Seems I didn't need to).

Ray
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit what a ride!"---Crewcheif22 AKA Keith

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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2009, 05:35:06 PM »
Wasn't happy with my answer so here ya go  from the 460 website
Head Castings
Ralph, I'm going to have to pick some of this info apart.... ;)

"The size of the thermact-air bosses also varies." Not true, they are all essentially the same configuration as far as we are concerned.

"Within the three castings, there is also engineering revisions, i.e. DOVE-A, DOVE-B, DOVE-C." Ain't no "D0VE-B" casting.

"Chamber size is about 77 cc, and can vary +/- from that. The stock size valves in these heads are 2.08 for the intake and 1.65 for the exhaust. These heads can have 2.25 intake and 1.76 exhaust valves installed." BE CAREFUL when using 2.25 and 1.76 valves simultaneously. Depending on camshaft profile, the valves might clip. Safer to use 2.25/1.72 or 2.19/1.76 I/E valve combos

"The next batch of casting is; D3VE, E6TE, and F8TE. These heads are basically all the same. The E6s and F8s were cast as replacements for the D3s." All the same head, but the E6TE has a different size accessory bolt hole on the end, and the F8TE is actually an E6TE that was cast in 1988 for 460 Motorhome applications (since the 1988 F250's went to the E7TE fuel injected cylinder head).

LO

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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2009, 05:36:47 PM »
thats ok Paul, thats why we keep you around ;) :thumbup:

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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2009, 05:37:27 PM »
Ill get some pics up asap! So the d1ve are the same as d0ve? The boat has a set ported d3ve with crane 1.73 roller rockers 7/16 stud all ss valves that's all new (I can switch it over right?)thanks guys ps. Not to long ago I didn't like ford motors the southwind made me a believer
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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2009, 05:42:07 PM »
Ill get some pics up asap! So the d1ve are the same as d0ve? The boat has a set ported d3ve with crane 1.73 roller rockers 7/16 stud all ss valves that's all new (I can switch it over right?)thanks guys ps. Not to long ago I didn't like ford motors the southwind made me a believer
let me know if you want to sell your d3's

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Glasscutter, Skip, OC2  Nordie and many more nail me good every time, relentlessly, I love those guys!

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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2009, 05:51:55 PM »
The boat came with a extra set of stock d3.s they have a little rust and 2 cranks and 4 cams. 2 boxes full of parts
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2009, 06:03:28 PM »
Ill get some pics up asap! So the d1ve are the same as d0ve?
IF they have the cast iron rail stud rockers (a la early-style heads) and not the pedestal-style stamped steel rockers (a la D3VE heads), then they are the same. The casting number ought to be be D1VE-AA.

The boat has a set ported d3ve with crane 1.73 roller rockers 7/16 stud all ss valves that's all new (I can switch it over right?)
The stainless valves that are in the D3VE heads may not be used in the early-style heads if they are D3VE-length valves.

LO

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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2009, 12:22:04 PM »
Is the 1970 460 the same in cars and trucks? I have a buddy that has some old ford trucks and 2 of them are 70' 3/4 tons??
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2009, 06:48:13 PM »
Is the 1970 460 the same in cars and trucks? I have a buddy that has some old ford trucks and 2 of them are 70' 3/4 tons??
In 1970, Ford did not install 429's or 460's into pickup trucks....only passenger cars.

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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2009, 08:55:04 PM »
Damnit so what cars did they come in? I'm not a ford guy but I'm getting there
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« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2009, 09:03:24 PM »
Damnit so what cars did they come in? I'm not a ford guy but I'm getting there

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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2009, 02:43:24 AM »
Dont do it, its a trick!  >:D


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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2009, 07:24:32 AM »
T-bird and lincolns had 460's back in 1970.  I think the torinos had 429's.

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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2009, 08:25:01 AM »

Let ye with NO BOAT cast the first stone!!!!! ;D

No boat huh? You sure?  >:D
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2009, 08:33:00 AM »
one of the guys in my car club is the manager of the pick-n-pulls in the sac. area!
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« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2009, 07:09:12 PM »
Damnit so what cars did they come in? I'm not a ford guy but I'm getting there
460s came in Lincolns (Continentals, etc.).

429's came in station wagons (2-bbl), Mustangs, Torinos, LTD's, Thunderbirds, etc.

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« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2009, 09:58:36 PM »
Soooo the 460 from my Sleek ain't original? Bummer! What if I put a Conti hood ornament on it?

(J/K Paul, really, don't kill me!   :D)

Ray
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« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2009, 11:34:02 PM »
coool ill put the werd out and see what he can come up with. i would like to have one or two for backup. thanks
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