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Ford Rebuild Disappointment

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angermgmt

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« on: June 12, 2019, 08:58:46 AM »
Well I previously wiped a cam and recently put the engine back together with essentially the same components. Problem is I lost 400-500 RPM in the process.   

460 Ford .030 over, different block

KB Hypers, new rings and gapped to marine specs

Comp Cam 585/305, 1/4 turn lash on hydronic lifters

New lifters and push rods

Same valves lapped & shimmed

Eagle H Beam rods

Rotating assembly balance way within 1/2 gram

Dual Holley 600ís with tunnel ram

Aggressor A impeller.

The only changes were a different block (not decked) and the Eagle rods which replaced stock rods. Compression test showed 120PSI across the board and the plugs look clean almost too clean like itís running lean. Idles perfect and runs good except I stay at 4500 rpm with a lot of peddle left. Vacuum at WOT is essentially zero.

Can not decking the block create this much of a compression loss?  Do I need to re check valve lash and timing?  Iím at a loss and pretty disappointed.

Thanks for any help in advance.

B



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mash on it

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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2019, 09:08:33 AM »
2 questions-

Was the cam degreed in? On both combos?

New pushrods measured for the new combo?

Ok, 3 questions-
Fresh gas in the boat?

How much was the other block decked? (That's 4....) and new rods the same length?

Just thinking out loud.

Dan'l

I feel your heartache. Roller cams are cheaper than doing it twice.
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angermgmt

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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2019, 11:11:05 AM »
#1 unknown and no. Installed the timing set in the same 0 position.

#2 new pushrods were same length

#3 yes fresh gas

#4 unknown as it can with boat. Did a rough measurement bottom of cylinder to top of cylinder on both and they appeared the same, but like I said rough. And yes h beam rods same length.

Thanks B


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mash on it

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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2019, 11:33:57 AM »
I know it's not the easiest thing to do, but I set the distributor timing on the water.

Your Ford should be fairly easy with the front dizzy.

Have someone drive, and keep it steady, about 3K to 3500 rpm.

Slowly twist (advanve) the dizzy to achieve more rpm, watching the tach, without more throttle.

Once it goes too far, the rpm will drop, bring it back a little. Then lock it down.

This is what the engine wants, at that air temp and elevation, ie:- Elsinore will be different than the river.

Not unheard of to gain 500 rpm.

Just my $0.02

Dan'l
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angermgmt

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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2019, 11:42:51 AM »
Thanks. Iíve done that before on the water. Iím hoping thatís it. When I swapped blocks I made a template in order to duplicate where my distributor to block points met.  Operator error and a different block may have thrown it off. Just to double check, 3000-3500 and not 2000-2500???


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mash on it

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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2019, 02:09:28 PM »
Thanks. Iíve done that before on the water. Iím hoping thatís it. When I swapped blocks I made a template in order to duplicate where my distributor to block points met.  Operator error and a different block may have thrown it off. Just to double check, 3000-3500 and not 2000-2500???


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Your distributor should be all in by 3K,
And you'll be planing, or ya should be.

My big azz sled is still on top till about 28-2900.

Dan'l
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angermgmt

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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2019, 02:35:43 PM »
Very good thank you. Iíll report back once we get it tested.


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angermgmt

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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2019, 02:14:45 PM »
So, while Iím waiting on some parts I decided to do a cold leak down test on all the cylinders. 20-30Ē average on a newly machined block and new rings blending into crankcase.  I know there are different opinions regarding cold vs hot tests, but I am besides frustrated, this appears way too loose for a new build.  🤯


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« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2019, 02:38:29 PM »
With that my plugs are lean clean ??????


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« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2019, 04:32:15 AM »
I know it's not the easiest thing to do, but I set the distributor timing on the water.

Your Ford should be fairly easy with the front dizzy.

Have someone drive, and keep it steady, about 3K to 3500 rpm.

Slowly twist (advanve) the dizzy to achieve more rpm, watching the tach, without more throttle.

Once it goes too far, the rpm will drop, bring it back a little. Then lock it down.

This is what the engine wants, at that air temp and elevation, ie:- Elsinore will be different than the river.

Not unheard of to gain 500 rpm.

Just my $0.02

Dan'l
This is great maybe i shouldnt worry about the number of degrees on mine either and just give it what it wants

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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2019, 04:38:59 AM »
Im trying to learn everything i can about my boat with a bbf. If u need help with anything. Im no ford expert but i pick things up quickly. Id love to see what you have going on. My rpms are topping out just under 4000 closer to 3900. Its unfortunate you having problems but i think learning from your problems will solve mine.

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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2019, 08:44:03 AM »
I know it's not the easiest thing to do, but I set the distributor timing on the water.

Your Ford should be fairly easy with the front dizzy.

Have someone drive, and keep it steady, about 3K to 3500 rpm.

Slowly twist (advanve) the dizzy to achieve more rpm, watching the tach, without more throttle.

Once it goes too far, the rpm will drop, bring it back a little. Then lock it down.

This is what the engine wants, at that air temp and elevation, ie:- Elsinore will be different than the river.

Not unheard of to gain 500 rpm.

Just my $0.02

Dan'l
First off, the title of this thread makes me sad. I actually felt the pain.


And this info right here makes too much sense. Makes me wonder why I never did this. Kind of excited to see what happens after adjustment. Hope you come back with an excited response.

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« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2019, 09:07:55 AM »
Hopefully, I only have a few runs on it probably less than two hours so Iím kinda hoping that the rings arenít completely seated yet. Going to restrict a bit more water to the block to bring the heat up.


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mash on it

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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2019, 11:12:19 AM »
Hopefully, I only have a few runs on it probably less than two hours so Iím kinda hoping that the rings arenít completely seated yet. Going to restrict a bit more water to the block to bring the heat up.


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What engine oil and what rings?

Synthetic oil and chrome rings is not very friendly for break-in.

On the water temp, no need to go crazy, 180į for a short run is plenty.

Dan'l
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« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2019, 01:49:00 PM »
Hastings rings and Valvoline VR1 20/50 high zinc


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« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2019, 01:51:16 PM »
And my temp has been at 160 or so since Iíve only been cruising. Only got on it a few days ago when the issues presented themselves.


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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2019, 07:29:00 AM »


Well I previously wiped a cam and recently put the engine back together with essentially the same components. Problem is I lost 400-500 RPM in the process.   

460 Ford .030 over, different block

KB Hypers, new rings and gapped to marine specs

Comp Cam 585/305, 1/4 turn lash on hydronic lifters

New lifters and push rods

Same valves lapped & shimmed

Eagle H Beam rods

Rotating assembly balance way within 1/2 gram

Dual Holley 600ís with tunnel ram

Aggressor A impeller.

The only changes were a different block (not decked) and the Eagle rods which replaced stock rods. Compression test showed 120PSI across the board and the plugs look clean almost too clean like itís running lean. Idles perfect and runs good except I stay at 4500 rpm with a lot of peddle left. Vacuum at WOT is essentially zero.

Can not decking the block create this much of a compression loss?  Do I need to re check valve lash and timing?  Iím at a loss and pretty disappointed.

Thanks for any help in advance.

B

What your cranking compression on your previous build?

Here are s few thoughts:

The first thing that jumps out at me is the 120 PSI.  Every engine that i have had with less than 160 PSI has been an absolute lazy dog. 120 PSI is indicative of a low effective compression ratio.  The combustion gasses only expand so much.  With an unnecessarily low static compression ratio, power and efficiency suffer.

You mentioned that the block and rods were changed.  If the block is on the high end of its tolerance, the piston will not travel as close to the combustion chamber. 

 Is it possible that the rods are, for some reason shorter?  This will further lower the piston in the bore.

I am not familiar with Ford head gaskets, but if they are anything like Chevy and Mopar, there are several different thicknesses and bore diameters available.  Just changing the head gaskets alone will not make or break your compression but, in an already compression challenged engine, it all adds up.

The clearance between the cylinder head and the top of the piston is the quench distance.  You should make every effort to get this below .055 inches.  This has a big effect on power, efficiency, and detonation resistance.

Everything written above is strictly static compression ratio.  The intake valve closing point determines the dynamic compression ratio.  Basically, the intake valve closes at some point after BDC.  The piston can't start compressing the air/fuel mixture until both valves are closed (theoretically).

Increasing duration, with Installed Centerline the same, delays the intake valve closing point.  When the intake valve closes later, the piston is further up the cylinder, effective stroke AND compression are reduced.

Advancing the cam will make all timing events occur earlier relative to crankshaft rotation.  The intake valve closes earlier, building more cylinder pressure.

I would look into advancing your camshaft 4-degrees.  Be advised that advancing the cam will decrease intake valve to piston clearance.  The intake valve starts opening well before the piston reaches TDC.  I have never worked with a Ford 385 series, so I can't give any advice as to what is safe.  Contact your cam grinder and check your piston to valve clearance.

Another other thing to consider is, was true TDC verified on your timing pointer and damper?  That won't change your 120 PSI cranking pressure, but if you aren't getting the ignition timing advance that you think you are, you won't be making the power.

You can power tune your timing.  Make a pass while noting your MPH and RPM.  Advance your ignition timing 2-degrees, and make another pass.  Repeat until further advance shows indication of detonation or the boat slows down.  Then back off the timing 2-degrees.

Lastly, you need to get your AFR sorted out before anything else.
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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2019, 06:21:44 PM »
Thanks for all the info


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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2019, 08:50:19 PM »
I have about 6 hours run time including the dyno break-in. on my 460 Ford. So I changed the oil and sent a sample to Blackstone Labs for analysis. Everything looked good according to them considering it's new and metal is shed as parts lap together.  I have a full roller solid lift cam of 600 lift, with a 30 over block with 9.5 forged pistons. I pulled all the plugs to roll her over easier and after the valve adjustment which was really close; I did a cold, carb zip tied open, compression test. Cylinder 1. 160 lbs. 2. 155 lbs. 3. 157lbs. 4. 160lbs. 5. 155lbs. 6. 156lbs. 7. 157lbs. 8. 155lbs. My engine builder saw the oil sample readings and pressures and says it's a good engine. I'm wondering why your cylinders would be so low?
I'm running 31 degrees total advance as recommended by the builder and a 850 Double pumper at 6psi pressure. NGK V Power-7-R 5673-7 plugs gapped at 30 thousands. She is a tad rich although I would rather be a bit rich than lean. I have a new MSD ignition with Bassett headers with the inserts installed. Mine runs strong to the rev limiters 5500 cut off.
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« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2019, 02:05:09 PM »
Couple things... on a block that hasnít been zero decked, you will typically be about .020-.030 in the hole... which can account for about half a point of compression. Then, degreeing the cam is a must... a lot of ford timing sets come retarded from the factory. Also... put a timing light on it... bbfís with factory iron heads (d3) typically like between 32-36* total timing... on warmed over big blocks... Iíve seen as much as 20-25hp and a gain of 300-400 peak rpm just with playing with adding some timing on the dyno.

Also... did you happen to notice where the 20% leakage was going? Rings? Valves?? Iíd expect a slight bit more leakage with the wider gaps on the rings for kb pistons... but 20 is a bit much.


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