Olds oil pickup help

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evilb

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« on: March 11, 2018, 04:12:06 PM »
I'm putting together a rebuilt 455 that previously lost a cam. Planning on a new oil pump but don't want a high volume pump. I have a Milodon 10qt jet boat pan. The only pickup made for that pan is a bolt on style made for the hv pump. What have people done to run a correct depth pickup that fits on a stock style, press fit pump? The previous owner had a stock pump with what looks like a stock puckup that was bent with vice grips or something. The screen has a rust hole so I don't want to use it. Plus it looks janky as sh**. Any advice?



69kona

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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2018, 04:26:55 AM »
Here u go


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chrisx2

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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2018, 04:33:38 AM »
Put an HV pump on it. You've got a 10 qt pan, why put a stock OE pump on it when for a little more, you can do it the right way. You've got to do the oil mods on Oldsmobiles. Put the restrictors in mains 1-4 and the HV pump with correct pick up.
These mods are minimum and negligible in cost, compared to having to go back into it again.


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69kona

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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2018, 04:41:43 AM »
Put an HV pump on it. You've got a 10 qt pan, why put a stock OE pump on it when for a little more, you can do it the right way. You've got to do the oil mods on Oldsmobiles. Put the restrictors in mains 1-4 and the HV pump with correct pick up.
These mods are minimum and negligible in cost, compared to having to go back into it again.


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I’m wondering why u think you need a high volume oil pump ? I’m just curious . 


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chrisx2

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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2018, 05:09:12 AM »
Several, due to original design flaws, the success of their corrections, and the EPA vs. manufacturing design.
1- Oldsmobiles over oil the upper end via the cam lube circuits, pound in or thread in restrictors reduce this issue saving more of the volume for the mains and rods which have high bearing speeds (large journals need more oil volume)
2- The cam design is flat tappet, which is a parkerized finish (hardening), the EPA mandated zinc removal of all automotive oils due to its damaging effects on catalysts. So, no zinc, no finish protection, higher heat issues at lobe/tappet contact, more volume alone helps cool the metals, that's one of oils purposes, heat removal. So add ZDDP additive also.
This may have been the cause of your cam failure
3- Cost vs. return, minimal increase in part cost with greater gains in return, see benefits above.

Will that explanation suffice?


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69kona

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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2018, 05:25:03 AM »
Several, due to original design flaws, the success of their corrections, and the EPA vs. manufacturing design.
1- Oldsmobiles over oil the upper end via the cam lube circuits, pound in or thread in restrictors reduce this issue saving more of the volume for the mains and rods which have high bearing speeds (large journals need more oil volume)
2- The cam design is flat tappet, which is a parkerized finish (hardening), the EPA mandated zinc removal of all automotive oils due to its damaging effects on catalysts. So, no zinc, no finish protection, higher heat issues at lobe/tappet contact, more volume alone helps cool the metals, that's one of oils purposes, heat removal. So add ZDDP additive also.
This may have been the cause of your cam failure
3- Cost vs. return, minimal increase in part cost with greater gains in return, see benefits above.

Will that explanation suffice?


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The right bearing clearance  is key to good oil pressure . A STD oil pump delivers plenty of oil if the “proper” bearing clearance is held .


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chrisx2

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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2018, 05:51:00 AM »
Pressure is only restriction to flow. Clearances are paramount in in this yes, absofuckinglutely, ever found it without making them correct? They're all over the place, you're assuming they're correct and equal, think Pascals law. He had an engine failure, not a total blow out but a failure none the less, plus wear already on the bearings and journals. A Melling HV pump will assist in keeping the guts a little happier for a small increase in cost. I'm not saying put a Titan gerotor pump on it, instead of the 29.99 Advance auto special, a little more on the pump in quality and no additional work.



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chrisx2

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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2018, 05:53:39 AM »
Also, when 3 of the biggest names in Oldsmobile building (Joe Mondello, Bill Travato, and Dick and Andy Miller) advise it, it's probably a good idea.


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evilb

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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2018, 07:18:58 AM »
Thanks for the replies guys. Engine is already assembled. It doesn't have restrictors installed. (Yeah, I know...but it is what it is). I do have external oil drains because I had valve covers filling up before. The external drains fixed that. I'm afraid that the HV pump will set me back to where I started with the heads filling up. Plus more load on the cam gear. Thoughts?

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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2018, 07:20:49 AM »
Also, I did see that moroso pickup but I think it's for a dealer pan than the Milodon. Has anyone used it with the Milodon pan?

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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2018, 08:46:00 AM »
Restricted push rods can help there too.

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Maker

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« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2018, 01:23:49 PM »
Also, I did see that moroso pickup but I think it's for a dealer pan than the Milodon. Has anyone used it with the Milodon pan?

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If memory serves me correctly  the 10qt pan is the same depth as a stock pan

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« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2018, 02:01:58 PM »
If memory serves me correctly  the 10qt pan is the same depth as a stock pan

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Oh... Ok. I'll take some measurements. Thanks!

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GT Jets

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« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2018, 02:12:43 PM »
Put an HV pump on it. You've got a 10 qt pan, why put a stock OE pump on it when for a little more, you can do it the right way. You've got to do the oil mods on Oldsmobiles. Put the restrictors in mains 1-4 and the HV pump with correct pick up.
These mods are minimum and negligible in cost, compared to having to go back into it again.


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Why on God's green earth would you put a high volume pump on a restricted build? This is like pissing before you get your junk out of your shorts...


Pressure is only restriction to flow. Clearances are paramount in in this yes, absofuckinglutely, ever found it without making them correct? They're all over the place, you're assuming they're correct and equal, think Pascals law. He had an engine failure, not a total blow out but a failure none the less, plus wear already on the bearings and journals. A Melling HV pump will assist in keeping the guts a little happier for a small increase in cost. I'm not saying put a Titan gerotor pump on it, instead of the 29.99 Advance auto special, a little more on the pump in quality and no additional work.



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I completely disagree, the only way I would ever recommend going with a high volume pump is if the boat had remote filters and a cooler to contend with, otherwise the pump will be constantly bypassing causing aeration of the oil and causing a false heat issue...

JMHO This isn't in a 442 convertible that runs at 3,200 rpm down the freeway....





GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

69kona

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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2018, 02:59:03 PM »

Why on God's green earth would you put a high volume pump on a restricted build? This is like pissing before you get your junk out of your shorts...


I completely disagree, the only way I would ever recommend going with a high volume pump is if the boat had remote filters and a cooler to contend with, otherwise the pump will be constantly bypassing causing aeration of the oil and causing a false heat issue...

JMHO This isn't in a 442 convertible that runs at 3,200 rpm down the freeway....





GT
Thank you ... 100% agreed


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69kona

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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2018, 03:00:58 PM »
Also, when 3 of the biggest names in Oldsmobile building (Joe Mondello, Bill Travato, and Dick and Andy Miller) advise it, it's probably a good idea.


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Not a accurate ...


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GT Jets

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« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2018, 04:11:35 PM »
Not a accurate ...


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Actually, that's partially true, the problem is, it's only recommended on a highly modified oil return and restricted engine with the restrictor kit with a large capacity pan. What is missing is that it requires a larger pan, which I interpret to saying all the oil will be in the top end. This causes a few problems, one, it will get the snot whipped out of it by the crank causing foam and foamy oil gets hot as hades. This in turn thins the foamy oil until it pushes out of the breathers and the engine loses oil pressure because the pump can't deal with the foam. Not to mention the pump will be bypassing all of the time because of the restrictors. We used Roll pinned pushrods and roller rocker arms from Harland Sharp. Engine now has about 300 hours on it and can run 5k rpm for as long as you can afford the fuel....

The place he got the information from was on the build page which recommends the HV pump for drag racing builds. Last time I checked, they only run balls out for around ten seconds.. Not hours like we do. Oil temperature and foam are not normally an issue.

Using a standard pressure/standard flow pump will push much less oil to the top end preventing all the above, you will want to be very cautious on bearing clearances and oil viscosity. The oil should run in the low to mid 200's °F and typically a 40 wt oil is spot on. We ran 15w-40 and never had an issue.

No matter what, weld or braze the pick up and if it's bolted, use safety wire.

On the Milodon pan, DO NOT exceed 3/8" pick up to pan clearance, no less than 1/4". We normally weld a tab on the bottom of the pick up to prevent suck down.

Good luck. Cam break in is EVERYTHING, be sure to use the proper additives and run a quality oil.


GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

GT Jets

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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2018, 04:19:09 PM »
One last thing to consider before I go back to work on my secret project...   :sly:

A jet boat engine pulls nearly no horsepower at all until about 3,500 RPM, it does not require the lower register oiling a car does. A car has to "pull a gear"... I've said it 100 times. build the engine to run at 4k rpm. with the occasional 5k rpm flog. A standard pump is more than adequate in this application.

Have a great evening...

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

evilb

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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2018, 08:51:28 PM »
One last thing to consider before I go back to work on my secret project...   :sly:

A jet boat engine pulls nearly no horsepower at all until about 3,500 RPM, it does not require the lower register oiling a car does. A car has to "pull a gear"... I've said it 100 times. build the engine to run at 4k rpm. with the occasional 5k rpm flog. A standard pump is more than adequate in this application.

Have a great evening...

GT
Thank you very much for your reply! Great info. I will measure pickup to pan clearance and tack everything in place. I ordered a stock type pump and pickup. I have good break-in oil and plenty of additive. Eventually I plan to run Castrol 15w40 with additive. Thanks everyone.

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69kona

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« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2018, 05:03:24 AM »
Actually, that's partially true, the problem is, it's only recommended on a highly modified oil return and restricted engine with the restrictor kit with a large capacity pan. What is missing is that it requires a larger pan, which I interpret to saying all the oil will be in the top end. This causes a few problems, one, it will get the snot whipped out of it by the crank causing foam and foamy oil gets hot as hades. This in turn thins the foamy oil until it pushes out of the breathers and the engine loses oil pressure because the pump can't deal with the foam. Not to mention the pump will be bypassing all of the time because of the restrictors. We used Roll pinned pushrods and roller rocker arms from Harland Sharp. Engine now has about 300 hours on it and can run 5k rpm for as long as you can afford the fuel....

The place he got the information from was on the build page which recommends the HV pump for drag racing builds. Last time I checked, they only run balls out for around ten seconds.. Not hours like we do. Oil temperature and foam are not normally an issue.

Using a standard pressure/standard flow pump will push much less oil to the top end preventing all the above, you will want to be very cautious on bearing clearances and oil viscosity. The oil should run in the low to mid 200's °F and typically a 40 wt oil is spot on. We ran 15w-40 and never had an issue.

No matter what, weld or braze the pick up and if it's bolted, use safety wire.

On the Milodon pan, DO NOT exceed 3/8" pick up to pan clearance, no less than 1/4". We normally weld a tab on the bottom of the pick up to prevent suck down.

Good luck. Cam break in is EVERYTHING, be sure to use the proper additives and run a quality oil.


GT
Gt jet yep you know what it takes to make those Oldsmobile’s live .  All good information you have posted . My 472 stroker Oldsmobile runs hard . But when i build the 507 olds I’ll be picking your brian lol


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chrisx2

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« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2018, 05:56:00 AM »
No I did not get that info on the last page. Might I recommend something. Try reading those books, I did and still do. When Joe Mondello personally told me in a face to face conversation concerning oiling, Oldsmobiles have sub par oiling compared to Chevy and Ford, and ALL should have restrictors in a minimum of mains 2-4, because the feed galleries are too big to the cam bearings.


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chrisx2

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« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2018, 06:20:58 AM »
I've been doing Oldsmobiles for many many years also



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96Laveycraft21Xt

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« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2018, 07:31:47 AM »
I've been doing Oldsmobiles for many many years also



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I built my first 455 with that mondello's tech manual.  Bills book is great also!

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« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2018, 07:37:08 AM »
Not everything is gospel, but, with 2 GM engineers (Joe & Bill) being in agreement on many of the oiling issues/mods, I'll lean in their direction. Imho.

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« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2018, 02:01:03 PM »
All I'm saying is.... If you install a high volume oil pump in the OP's engine without restrictors or roll pinned pushrods, I'd give it three hours tops at max throttle before it's junk.... I'm talkin' rod out the side garbage.

My good friend runs an 8-71 Blown Olds in his day cruiser and he got so frustrated with it, he went dry sump with a four circuit scavenging system. I know for a fact that that engine has not been apart in 15 years. The pump is geared for 50 pounds of oil pressure at 5,200 RPM. Runs like a Swiss watch. With a big pan and all the secret fixes, it would turn the oil into a foamy mess and peg the oil temp gauge and drop the oil pressure to less than five pounds in less than 10 minutes... He stated that he was shocked at how little oil flow they actually need at high RPM..... I put the engine together and had the machine work done at my pops shop. I think I even have the build sheet somewhere. I know you think it needs an HV pump, but in this particular case, you are completely wrong. If the oil temperature stays between 200°F and 250°F, it will run perfect up to 5K rpm.

Not arguing, just stating facts based on MY personal experiences, not what it says in an article for a 442 build. Boats be different..... Totally different.

Done here, have a great boating season.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

 


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