Swapping small block for big block?

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crewchief22

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« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2008, 06:02:39 PM »

Heres my non-professional opinion.....4 bangers sound like sh*t ;D

Josh, you should attend a Pro-4 stock car race, the sounds from the smaller engines running hard is incredible.

We use to run an Olds Quad-4 with a stock bottom end, Ross pistons, custom ground cams, port match only and dual Weber DCOE 50's, getting about 325hp @ 7800rpm  :o

There was a few tracks giving us a hard time about exceeding 95db at 100'  :D
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« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2008, 06:14:58 PM »
I believe ya, just tryn to get a rise out of these guys :D but you won't convince me that a stock honda civic with a 4 inch tip sounds good.  As a joke in high scool I took my Dads old retired 88 Dodge colt, cut the muffler off stung a straight pipe with a resonator on.  It wasn't fast because I didn't have all the bolt on primered ground effects like the other guys.


In my high school "Fast in the furious" was a lifestyle for some, or so they would have liked you to believe.

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« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2008, 07:44:05 PM »
Sounds like we grew up in the same era Josh. In the days where a spoiler chopped 2 seconds off a civics 1/4...

As for that Jr. intake I may be buggin ya for it... Someone at work crashed their Cobalt SS and offered me the engine/tranny last week. So I've been buggin Dave about the Jr. he's not so enthusiastic these days.

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« Reply #53 on: January 30, 2008, 08:46:38 PM »
Sounds like we grew up in the same era Josh. In the days where a spoiler chopped 2 seconds off a civics 1/4...

As for that Jr. intake I may be buggin ya for it... Someone at work crashed their Cobalt SS and offered me the engine/tranny last week. So I've been buggin Dave about the Jr. he's not so enthusiastic these days.

In my era, spoilers came on 69 Camaro's and civics was a class in highschool.  I'm feeling old... :(
R/C

1988 16' Tahiti SBC  &  1977 18' Dimarco

GAWnCA

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« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2008, 09:03:20 PM »
In my era, spoilers came on 69 Camaro's and civics was a class in highschool.  I'm feeling old... :(

I know the feeling...  AND you could do a 10 second quarter mile on pump gas at 23 cents a gallon.  Oh for the good old days again!  I had a 68 Camaro that had a spoiler on it.  :)
~Greg
Forgive your enemies.  It messes up their heads.

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« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2008, 11:49:11 PM »
I know the feeling...  AND you could do a 10 second quarter mile on pump gas at 23 cents a gallon.  Oh for the good old days again!  I had a 68 Camaro that had a spoiler on it.  :)
I had a 68 camaro spoiler on my mustang, literally. Chopped and filled the corners to make it fit.  Don't ask about the stupid window decal, it was only on for about a week.

I sure do miss that car ever now and a again.....oh well next project :D

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« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2008, 05:49:06 AM »
I know the feeling...  AND you could do a 10 second quarter mile on pump gas at 23 cents a gallon.  Oh for the good old days again!  I had a 68 Camaro that had a spoiler on it.  :)

1ST car I had was 67 Mustang convertable 3sp stick with 6cyl. Yellow with black top.. $150 (no rust or dents), next car was a 69 Camaro DZ302 burgundy with white stripes, black hounds tooth interior. $3200. (I wish I had that still) The guy who bought it from me, still has it. One of the main reasons I bought my Tahiti, besides being extremely clean, was the spoiler on the back, reminded me of the Camaro.
R/C

1988 16' Tahiti SBC  &  1977 18' Dimarco

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« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2008, 10:44:34 AM »
I've always dug the lines on that boat. The back looks similar to a pantera bottom except it looks like its got an extra set of strakes on the sides of the intake opening, or atleast they extend all the way back.  is the keel rounded or a delta pad?

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« Reply #58 on: January 31, 2008, 07:10:52 PM »
Rounded.
R/C

1988 16' Tahiti SBC  &  1977 18' Dimarco

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« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2008, 04:46:43 PM »
Been doing some thinking...  Tom, Greg, Undone, I think I've seen the light.  Looked at some of the goods that T&L Engine Development had to offer and some others.  Weight difference between BB & SB is approximately 175lbs.  Thats quite a bit. 408 stroker motor at 510hp and 500 lbs torque, WOW.

I'm glad you have seen the light on this. I read this thread last week and decided to sign up just to give you my .02. But it look's like you decided correctly. You can get a ton of HP/Trq out of a stroker small block.

Rather you choose a 383, 408 or a  406 (.030 over bore 400) with the correct set of heads and the right cam and intake you can make some very good number's.



That's a copy of a 409" Ford Windsor that I had built a few yrs back. It might be more power than you are looking for , but something in the hp 585-600 range is not out of the question for a 406 or 408 smblk Chevy wth the right parts choosen for the job.

Sleeper CP 19

Big Inch Ford Lover ;D
Going fast is only half the fun...What you make go fast is the other.

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« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2008, 11:49:19 PM »
I'm glad you have seen the light on this. I read this thread last week and decided to sign up just to give you my .02. But it look's like you decided correctly. You can get a ton of HP/Trq out of a stroker small block.

Rather you choose a 383, 408 or a  406 (.030 over bore 400) with the correct set of heads and the right cam and intake you can make some very good number's.



That's a copy of a 409" Ford Windsor that I had built a few yrs back. It might be more power than you are looking for , but something in the hp 585-600 range is not out of the question for a 406 or 408 smblk Chevy wth the right parts choosen for the job.

Sleeper CP 19

Big Inch Ford Lover ;D
Nice Numbers!  We need to compare notes, I may have under estimated mine.  I supose with out a dyno pull I'd rather aim low however.  Which AFR heads were they and did they have additional work?

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« Reply #61 on: February 03, 2008, 12:21:43 AM »
Rounded.
Sorry to leave ya hangen, but part of the reason I was curious about the shape of your keel is beacuse I think there is some performance to be had in you pump setup.  I've been lookin real hard at E pumps latley (my CVX20 has one), and i think Duane was/is really on to something with his ride plate and shoe kit.  Typically E pumps are installed high in relation to the keel so the sides of the intake don't stick down.  On a rounded keel this brings the mouth of the intake aprox 1/2" up from the keel, on Taylors I hear its even worse.  Ervan Capps told me Duanes kit works dreams on Taylors.
 
Anyway, mabey i'll start an E pump thred in the jet section.  Don't wanna get off track again this threds no over yet.

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« Reply #62 on: February 03, 2008, 09:39:56 AM »
[quote author=Josh@JBP:
Nice Numbers!  We need to compare notes, I may have under estimated mine.  I supose with out a dyno pull I'd rather aim low however.  Which AFR heads were they and did they have additional work?
[/quote]

The heads are  CNC ported AFR 225's w/ 2.08" int. The intakes stalled at 308 cfm at .600 the 2.08 valve would have flowed more with a .030 or larger overbore that would have unshrouded the valve.

This engine also had a rather radical Roller Cam in it. I don't even remember the numbers on it I'll see if I can find the ballpark number's tomorrow. This engine was my Engine Masters engine, it had to make power from 2,500- 6,500. It's not a cam that you would run in a boat or  car because the ramp speed is wicked, you would beat the hell out of the valve guides in a short amount of time. Shorter duration and very high lift for the duration.

I'll post another dyno sheet with the dual plane RPM-Air Gap intake. It lost top end HP and picked up some serious trq. down low.

Sleeper CP 19
Big Inch Ford Lover ;D
And small Ford's too...
« Last Edit: February 03, 2008, 12:07:31 PM by Sleeper CP 19 »
Going fast is only half the fun...What you make go fast is the other.

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« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2008, 03:58:39 PM »
Here is a graph of the dual plane RPM Air Gap vs Victor Jr. intake. The Victor Jr. made 37 more HP on the top end but the Air Gap made as much as 100 more lbs foot of trq. down low.



And the graph of the two:



You could built a very stought smblk.

Sleeper CP ;D
Going fast is only half the fun...What you make go fast is the other.

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« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2008, 07:29:57 PM »
I'm glad you have seen the light on this. I read this thread last week and decided to sign up just to give you my .02. But it look's like you decided correctly. You can get a ton of HP/Trq out of a stroker small block.

Rather you choose a 383, 408 or a  406 (.030 over bore 400) with the correct set of heads and the right cam and intake you can make some very good number's.



That's a copy of a 409" Ford Windsor that I had built a few yrs back. It might be more power than you are looking for , but something in the hp 585-600 range is not out of the question for a 406 or 408 smblk Chevy wth the right parts choosen for the job

Sleeper CP 19

Big Inch Ford Lover ;D

What recipe would you have for a 585-600 hp SBC?  What kind of reliability could I expect from a motor like this?
R/C

1988 16' Tahiti SBC  &  1977 18' Dimarco

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« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2008, 07:43:27 PM »
Do you want to not touch the engine or are you okay with adjusting valves on a Soild Roller ?

Pump gas or mixed (91/race gas) ? What rpm range?

Sleeper CP  ;D
Going fast is only half the fun...What you make go fast is the other.

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« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2008, 07:54:28 PM »
Do you want to not touch the engine or are you okay with adjusting valves on a Soild Roller ?

Pump gas or mixed (91/race gas) ? What rpm range?

Sleeper CP  ;D
Pump gas, I'm sure I could learn to adjust valves.  What RPM range is reliable?  I'm 47, haven't touched a motor since I was 17-18 yrs old. That's kinda how this thread started, was to build something with my 12 yr old, the BBC I bought a few weeks ago.  As you can see, I think we've changed our direction.
R/C

1988 16' Tahiti SBC  &  1977 18' Dimarco

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« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2008, 07:56:44 PM »
Sorry to leave ya hangen, but part of the reason I was curious about the shape of your keel is beacuse I think there is some performance to be had in you pump setup.  I've been lookin real hard at E pumps latley (my CVX20 has one), and i think Duane was/is really on to something with his ride plate and shoe kit.  Typically E pumps are installed high in relation to the keel so the sides of the intake don't stick down.  On a rounded keel this brings the mouth of the intake aprox 1/2" up from the keel, on Taylors I hear its even worse.  Ervan Capps told me Duanes kit works dreams on Taylors.
 
Anyway, mabey i'll start an E pump thred in the jet section.  Don't wanna get off track again this threds no over yet.
Josh, who's Duane?
R/C

1988 16' Tahiti SBC  &  1977 18' Dimarco

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« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2008, 08:29:16 PM »
R/C Josh is probably chillin with the Fam but he's talkin bout Duane at Hitech marine I belive He'll be back on line tommorow !! DAD  ;D

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« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2008, 09:23:15 PM »
Pump gas, I'm sure I could learn to adjust valves.  What RPM range is reliable?  I'm 47, haven't touched a motor since I was 17-18 yrs old. That's kinda how this thread started, was to build something with my 12 yr old, the BBC I bought a few weeks ago.  As you can see, I think we've changed our direction.

If we were talking a smblk Ford I could rattle off a bunch of info off the top of my head. If this is something you would like to do with your kid you might want to buy a stought short-block 408 or bigger and then get  a hydr. roller cam and the heads and put it together. I'll look for some short block info for you.

I'll ask Dan Crower and my friend Geoff Mummert what they think. I would think you can safley do 10.5:1 if you go hydrl. roller you will be pretty much
limited to 6,500 rpm's. I'll see what they think about a 10.5:1 408 making 585 hp. That would be 1.43 hp/cu.in that's a pretty well built engine.

I'll get back to you.

Sleeper CP ;D
Going fast is only half the fun...What you make go fast is the other.

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« Reply #70 on: February 05, 2008, 05:32:37 AM »
If we were talking a smblk Ford I could rattle off a bunch of info off the top of my head. If this is something you would like to do with your kid you might want to buy a stought short-block 408 or bigger and then get  a hydr. roller cam and the heads and put it together. I'll look for some short block info for you.

I'll ask Dan Crower and my friend Geoff Mummert what they think. I would think you can safley do 10.5:1 if you go hydrl. roller you will be pretty much
limited to 6,500 rpm's. I'll see what they think about a 10.5:1 408 making 585 hp. That would be 1.43 hp/cu.in that's a pretty well built engine.

I'll get back to you.








Sleeper CP ;D


Thanks CP, I appreciate you taking the time.   R/C
R/C

1988 16' Tahiti SBC  &  1977 18' Dimarco

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« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2008, 04:35:55 PM »
It just so happened that my cell rings this morning and it was Danny Crower. Got around to asking him your question. He stated that unless you are going to go for a high dollar Motown or Dart block for a 427 smblk he said build a 383 with a mechanical roller and 10.5-10.75 compression with some very good heads, Dart or Brodix maybe even Trick-Flow.

Set it up to run to 6,500 rpm's and try both a ported RPM Air Gap intake and Victor Jr on the dyno.

You had asked me what rpm range is reliable. With good part's you can turn an engine to 6,500 rpm's for year's without a problem. It just comes down to budget, do you have one yet ? And do you have a builder or are you thinking about the short block route ? I can set you up with a couple of guy's I trust very much for what ever direction you choose or you can get a 383 short block mail ordered that are pretty damn good and no over the top expensive.

Sleeper CP ;D
« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 10:33:14 PM by Sleeper CP 19 »
Going fast is only half the fun...What you make go fast is the other.

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« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2008, 05:54:40 PM »
   SUGGESTION BUY FEBRUARY POPULAR HOT RODDING MAG IT IS ABOUT A PUMP GAS SHOOT OUT LOOK AT SPEC ON MOTORS WHAT SIZE AND HOW THE WERE BUILT THINK ON COST FORD MOTORS USED FORD CRANK AND FORD BLOCK NOT AFTER MARKET, NOTE  WHAT ONE PUT OUT MOST HP WITH FACTORY PARTS NOT  HIGH COST AFTER MARKET LOOK AT CAM , CARB, COMP,MOST RAN 10.43 FOR PUMP GAS THEY RAN. NOT TO GOOD FOR BIG BLOCKS. THEY WERE THERE ON THE DINO FOR THE MONEY NO TO BAD $192,000 READ AND THINK NO BIG PORT HEADS MADE IT?????????????

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« Reply #73 on: February 05, 2008, 07:02:55 PM »
Thanks guys. I pictured the build over a 2-3 year period, to skim funding (checking account).  I'll have to make it through May, then my budget, hopefully opens up.
R/C

1988 16' Tahiti SBC  &  1977 18' Dimarco

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« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2008, 10:32:26 PM »
Sounds good. Drop me a note anytime you like.

Sleeper CP ;D
Going fast is only half the fun...What you make go fast is the other.

 


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