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Water pressure

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« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2013, 08:06:40 AM »
if it makes you feel better, you can use a globe valve. But not needed imho..

GT

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« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2013, 08:09:08 AM »
000000  000000
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 09:19:09 AM by TIMINATOR »
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« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2013, 08:52:20 AM »
Don't have time to discuss the whys right this minute, but had to comment on the 20 to 30 second thing..... Uhm... No.

I have never, ever, one time seen a jet boat motor take more than two seconds to fill the block and heads, this is why the dump line needs to be wide open. Air leaves the block and heads in a heartbeat.

The thermostat kits are a gimmick and do not ensure anything other than the water leaving the stat housing is warm..

I will expand on this later.

Something you have to know before I come back with a full on response. We have witnessed countless hours of dyno time on high performance engines that disproves almost everything in your post.

Not tying to condescend, just trying to keep the facts on top of the myths.

GT

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« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2013, 09:04:01 AM »
Also, if you think heat moves the piston down, then it would be advisable for you to do some reading... Not even close.........  ;)

Heat is a by product.

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« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 10:08:21 AM by GT Jets »
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« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2013, 11:47:30 AM »
Nope I said people have issues cause they don't have your knowledge and set it up wrong cause they use those damn gates

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« Reply #55 on: May 13, 2013, 11:48:43 AM »
Heat helps oil be slightly less viscous and allows oil to flow easier

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« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2013, 11:57:12 AM »
Your still stuck on my thermostat.  Look at how many people have asked about the gate valve setup
 They aren't sure or experienced about it.  That's how they make mistakes and blue headers get milky oil and blow gaskets.

Oh u Google's valves huh yes a globe is a great control valve

Did u Google gates they aren't supposed to regulate or adjust flow.  They were used back in the day on these boats we all love but aren't the best

My point was guys still use the gate near the dump I know they shouldn't u do too but they don't.  And they need to know why. 

Why KS it there to

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« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2013, 12:03:09 PM »
Why is it there to control block temp.  What does it do jackup block pressure.

By the way why would Boat manufacturing place a gate by the dump why would they try to control temp in the block.

Disregard our difference in opinions on temp the point is people not u GT are inexperienced with gates and the whole setup so the simple solution to this is my setup u can set mine up without even running the damn boat and have it dialed in.

U said yourself it has constant flow under all conditions

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« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2013, 12:33:06 PM »
Timinator I missed ur post before.  Thank u for giving GT a second opinion on that.  NUFF SAID

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« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2013, 12:57:19 PM »
Man I wish I had time to respond more in depth.

The globe valve is a great flow control valve, but not without its problems. A gate valve is cheaper, more readily available and easier to clear debris from.

I am not "stuck" on your thermostat, all I have said was that they are not necessary and don't do all you think they do.

Also, as for the comment about constant water flow.... That was a negative, not a positive. Engine load is not constant, so why should water flow? Think about it for a second, say the engine load goes up, so should water flow.... Just like an automotive deal. The water pump is directly connected to the crankshaft.

You guys really need to understand that I am not arguing with you, just saying there is more than one way to skin a cat and I like the simplest methods possible.

If yours happens to work, great. Whatever floats your, well, boat.8)

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« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 12:59:22 PM by GT Jets »
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« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2013, 01:01:09 PM »
Timinator I missed ur post before.  Thank u for giving GT a second opinion on that.  NUFF SAID

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But that post was over 85% gobbly gook....

I will revisit that I assure you. >:(

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« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2013, 01:25:32 PM »
Wow. I'm just a dumb 24yo repair plumber who use to understand the relationship between volume and head pressure but now I think I'm gonna sell my boat and forget all about it.


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« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2013, 04:23:28 PM »
Sad to see some respect go out the window on some of these posts. The OP asked for some advice and got plenty of it. And it's just advice, give yours but don't complain when someone else has a different bit to give.

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« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2013, 07:25:53 PM »
00000 000000
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 09:20:32 AM by TIMINATOR »
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« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2013, 09:16:25 PM »
If you have a gate valve restricted deal, remove the feed line from the pump, leave the valve set where you run it. Connect a garden hose(standard municipal water pressure here in AZ is 50-60 psi), turn on the hose wide open and see how long it takes the water to flow out of the dump line. TWO seconds? HA! This is why I quit trying to help on the boards. I will go back to helping my paying customers and tech line.  TIMINATOR

My white boat (RIP) would take less than 5 seconds from firing it to spit water out of the dump at the driver's gunnel.   Water temp measured at the head was 150- 160 running. 

But....that must be bullshit because ...eek!!  I had a gate valve!

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« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2013, 09:37:31 PM »
This is so out of hand. Whats funny is without hard factual proof we could go on forever like this. Fact is many of us run either or. Ive blued my headers but it was from a restriction in my jet intake from lake salad. Lesson learned.  Whether whos more right or wrong most of the average joes wont know or care because both work. I totally appreciate the effort you guys have given to express your points but as of now lets say fuck it and agree to disagree and just enjoy ourselves. I really enjoy the help given on this board and would hate to loose anyone's knowledge base over something like this. Standup ideas on both sides, really. But you have to admit turbo is the only way to go. ::)

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« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2013, 09:43:15 PM »
My outboard needs a new water pump.

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« Reply #67 on: May 14, 2013, 02:08:38 AM »
Just got home from Stockton.

Been wanting to do this for a while now... >:D


A thermostat setup from Rex or the like is the CORRECT and preferred method,

Says who? NONE of the manufacturers seem to think so, that is over a period of almost 40 years.

Let me tell you why a thermostat and the lack of a circulation, automotive style water pump has issues that I can not seem to get passed...

All a thermostat, even the one with the bypass does, is slow the water flow down from the top of the intake manifold. I guess I should ask how this differs from reducing the opening with a valve before the water enters the engine, but I wont.

By reducing the flow out of the manifold in this way, the water has the opportunity to go from the water pump inlet holes, right up the block, out the restrictor holes in the head gasket and out the stat housing. There is nothing to guarantee that there is any water moving in the rear cylinder area of the crankcase. That being said, ever look at the 454 Chevy in your truck or motor home? There is a 5/8" bypass hose on the top of the water pump to the front of the intake manifold UNDER where the stat housing is. Ever wonder why? It is to ensure that water is continuously moving in the engine even with the stat 100% closed.

I have absolutely NO problem with a thermostat kit on an engine with a block mounted water pump. This would actually work killer, especially if you have an automotive spec machined engine.

We have seen idling engines have a temperature difference with an infra red camera with over a 40* difference from the front to the back of the block, this was with a 160* thermostat and the block pressure was about 3#, that water was as close to flash steam as you could get on the rear cylinders of the motor...

a regulator seldom has enough VOLUME to properly cool the engine,

 Sorta kinda depends on the size of the regulator does it not? This statement has no factual value what so ever. I will not expand further.

the next best way is to use a bypass regulator, sold at Graingers and is adjustable to 40 psi. Install it after the gate valve, set it at 20 psi max, run the overpressure dump line thru the transom.


Agreed... If you MUST add something unneeded, this is worth doing for some insurance, but will probably be stuck in the closed position when you really need it because they are not designed for brackish water. All of these valves and regulators I see these poor guys running are designed for city or treated water, not the sandy, salty, brackish crap we normally see.

Leave the gate valve wide open. A partially closed gate valve will allow the engine to run warmer, thats true, BUT when you are wide open and you can't watch it, the temp WILL spike hotter.

Noooooo... The temperature while running WFO will drop lower, how the hell would it get hotter with more flow?, they run warmer at idle... (pretty sure I already covered that).

This assumes that you have a reasonable amount of HP.

Again, has little to do with anything as long as the flow rates are even close.

Use 12.8 BTU's per min, per HP  (12.8BTU's/min/HP) for gasoline engines.

So, 500 HP X 12.8 btu's X 60 minutes = 384000 BTUH.

Here is a cool little formula..    BTUH= Delta T (F) X GPM X 500  (whereas the 500 is the specific heat of water [1] times the weight of water [8.33#/gal.] times 60 [minutes in an hour]).

So that 500 HP motor needs to cool 348000 BTU's worth of heat (for the most part 1/3 of the heat generated by the fuel).

So lets say you want the motor to run at 130*F.

The lake you mostly run in is approx 60*F.... So now what?    well, 348000 = 70*F delta t X GPM X 500... Anyone?

You need approximately 11 GPM of lake water to keep her cool at 500 HP, much less at idle, or 10 HP... A big block Chevy holds about  a gallon and a half to two gallons of water, so how much time does it take to shoot water from the dump again?

A partially closed gate valve contributes to cylinder head cracking.

NOTHING you have proposed thus far will work any differently than a partially closed (insert type of valve here)...

Scenario: you just raced somebody, you stop to discuss it, the water in your now hot engine drains back into the lake, your upper block and heads are now empty of water, but still hot. You start back up, stomp the throttle, and the partially closed gate valve prevents the heads from fully filling for about 20-30 seconds,(how long dos it take to fill your radiator?),

First off.......What? Simple physics folks.... When a hot engine shuts down, the water going through the block was leaving at about 120*-130* if done "the old fashioned way"... That being said, when the engine shuts down, how is the water "draining back to the lake"? the engine is cooling off because it is no longer running generating more heat and is "heat soaking", as the water becomes acclimated to the block it will quite soon begin to cool and create a negative, this will keep 90+% of the water in the engine... Your mom ever can anything? what happens when you screw the lid on a hot jar of preserves?

If your engine is taking more that a few seconds to fill with water, especially after a quick shut down, you have more problems than just pressure issues. I have some videos somewhere that I will need to find of boats starting... Not one of them takes more than a few seconds to piss on the guy next to you.


meanwhile your heads are getting hotter, then the nice, cold lake water hits the hot chambers and exhaust seat areas. This is why we often see exhaust seat cracks in jetboat heads, but almost always on engines with partially closed gate valves and over 400 HP.

Calling BS, basically because you said exhaust seat, this is 99% of the time due to something called reversion from too close of lobe separation from somebody trying to use an automotive grind cam in a boat with injected headers...... Your camshaft lobe separation should never be closer than 8* if you are planing injected exhaust, i would rather see you go with 12*, plenty of proven cams out there do achieve this. you can also advance the cam a bit to get the torque numbers a jet requires at the top end of the RPM range.

 
A cold engine DOES NOT MAKE MORE HP THAN A WARM ENGINE!

Yeah, actually is does.

Unless you have too much timing, bad gas, or an overly rich mixture.

It is because of two of these three that you can make more power with a cold engine.... guess which two?..

 
Heat moves the piston down, heat moves from a hotter to a colder surface. Cold heads remove more heat, quicker than warm heads. We, and most other race shops, polish or ceramic coat the chambers and pistons on HP motors to decrease or insulate the surface area of the chambers, these both decrease the cooling effect on the burning mixture, and that equals more HP!  TIMINATOR

This is so far off, I don't really know exactly where to begin, so here goes...

"Heat moves the piston down,"  Really? I though it was the act of combustion of a superheated air/fuel charge ignited under extreme compression... Heat is the by product.

"heat moves from a hotter to a colder surface." Hey, you got one right!   (sorry, that was just rude... My bad.)

"Cold heads remove more heat, quicker than warm heads." OK. Heat is the root cause of detonation.

"We, and most other race shops, polish or ceramic coat the chambers and pistons on HP motors to decrease or insulate the surface area of the chambers, these both decrease the cooling effect on the burning mixture, and that equals more HP!" 

Oooh sorry... NO again. The polishing of the chamber reduces surface area within the combustion chamber keeping the surface heat from getting excessive and keeping a concentrated "flame flower" or "bloom" without creating "hot spots" in the chamber that can cause detonation, a cool head does the same thing... Coating the piston is the same principle. By doing this process you have basically allowed the operator to run a fatter mixture with a tad more timing... Hmmm, take a look above again.


I am not trying to be a shit swizzle stick, but I have a problem when someone posts something on a forum where people are trying to learn something who may or may not know when someone is blowing smoke up their ass...

You can look up anything I have written in this post and will be able to back it up... Not so sure the same can be said of the rest...

Regards

And my humble apologies to the OP, I hope the answer to your original question is hidden in here somewhere.

GT
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« Reply #68 on: May 14, 2013, 05:49:00 AM »
......oh...snap....

In my best "grandad" voice with a cigarette hanging out of my mouth....  "if a day goes by and you learn nothing, I hope like hell you got a lot of sleep".... :thumbup:

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« Reply #69 on: May 14, 2013, 05:59:41 AM »

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« Reply #70 on: May 14, 2013, 06:10:03 AM »
and i think that covers bout everything lol

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« Reply #71 on: May 14, 2013, 07:09:55 AM »
Refer to the 5 rules of discussion. Anyone remember those? #5 It must be worth my time.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 09:23:36 AM by TIMINATOR »
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« Reply #72 on: May 14, 2013, 09:03:34 AM »
Refer to the 5 rules of discussion. Anyone remember those?

TIMINATOR,

The reason I did what I did is not out of hatred.

Everything I wrote I backed up with information or facts and just want to keep information as straight foreword and correct as possible.

Some of the less experienced guys and gals on here could take some information from these boards as gospel and run with it, if that information is questionable, that's one thing. However if that information is completely incorrect or a sales pitch, be prepared to have it challenged.

I am all ears if you or anybody else can show me where I am, or even could be, incorrect or simply can add a point of view that differs from mine that may help me see your information as factual.

As of right now, you have not done that.

I may have come off as arrogant, for that I truly do apologize, I do still stand by all of the information in the post.

Please accept this as an olive  branch and I will attempt to be less opinionated.

I did try to word my post with respect with very  few exceptions.

I did the job of power boat Master mechanic in many forms of power boating for over half my life....

To everyone else, sorry for not lying down and keeping my opinions to myself, simply not how I was raised.

I guess that's two beers I owe now.

;)

GT



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« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 09:06:26 AM by GT Jets »
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« Reply #73 on: May 14, 2013, 09:29:57 AM »
This is a great thread and I have learned that the ball valve coming off my pump will be disappearing this weekend and a gate will be taking its place!  thanks GT :thumbup:
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« Reply #74 on: May 14, 2013, 09:32:14 AM »
I have owned my own Race and performance business for over 40 years, written over 50-60 magazine articles for several Performance car and boat magazines, had a tech column, still write for Industry only magazines, not monthly newsstand stuff. I was guilty of oversimplification in some statements. There is no reason for me to banter semantics with anyone. Refer to my last post: "It must be worth my time."
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PM or call me with JETTECH questions for HOTBOAT MAGAZINE!!  see them in the magazine!! OOPS! not anymore! HOTBOAT is boobs up! MODESTY IS A CRUTCH FOR THE INCOMPETENT!

 


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