flatlanderjet

  • Karma: +1/-0
Place Diverter installation fit issues
« on: July 22, 2019, 09:16:14 PM »
Spent an entire Saturday (unsuccessfully) installing a new place diverter.
Berkeley 12jc pump
after installing and removing the pivot pins and nylon bushings over and over and over... you get the picture
The upper pin and bushing go in ... the bottom pin will NOT go in using the nylon bushing.        And visa / versa.    grrrrrrrrr
desperate and any suggestions welcome?
(oh yeah, both pins can be installed IF i elect to leave 1  nylon bushing on the garage floor)   Not comfortable running it that way and shouldn't need to??
when the cat puked on the instructions I took that as a sign to abort the mission and reinstall the original until I can figure this out


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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2019, 05:22:11 AM »
File a tiny bit off the outer perimeter of the Teflon O-ring in your third picture.  the issue is the powder coat inside the ball-socket and O-ring groove adds unwanted thickness, creating the interference you're experiencing.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 06:22:05 AM by Flusher »
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2019, 06:37:09 AM »
You may have to remove the powder coat from either side of the O-ring groove.  Again, looking at your third picture, you can see black marks, on the Teflon O-ring, where the O-ring was in contact with the socket.  There may be similar marks on the diverter powder coat where it is contacting the socket.

If not, locate the Diverter assembly w/O-ring in the socket without installing the pins.  Cycling the Diverter left/right will create a witness mark on the powder coat indicating where the interference is.  It's probably just a tight spot with the O-ring.
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flatlanderjet

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2019, 07:59:46 AM »
File a tiny bit off the outer perimeter of the Teflon O-ring in your third picture.  the issue is the powder coat inside the ball-socket and O-ring groove adds unwanted thickness, creating the interference you're experiencing.

Thanks for 'the machinist' advice. My next move was to hone out the diverter's (top) pivot hole the mil thickness of the nylon (bushing) sleeve (since the sleeve is installed in the bowl housing) and the pivot pin is secured/locked (via set screw) in the diverter. . I'm OCD about the pivot hole being perfectly round so I would have a machine shop with the proper equipment hone (expand) the diverter pivot hole.    does this sound sane ..?
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JordanDangerfield

  • Karma: +41/-0
Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2019, 08:46:26 AM »
Thanks for 'the machinist' advice. My next move was to hone out the diverter's (top) pivot hole the mil thickness of the nylon (bushing) sleeve (since the sleeve is installed in the bowl housing) and the pivot pin is secured/locked (via set screw) in the diverter. . I'm OCD about the pivot hole being perfectly round so I would have a machine shop with the proper equipment hone (expand) the diverter pivot hole.    does this sound sane ..?
You're over thinking it. Like Flusher said, it's the added thickness of the powder coat causing the issue. I would advise against machining the hole bigger. Put a little man strength into it ;)

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flatlanderjet

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2019, 12:03:16 PM »
You're over thinking it. Like Flusher said, it's the added thickness of the powder coat causing the issue. I would advise against machining the hole bigger. Put a little man strength into it ;)

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ok, ok .. man up and take a file to it, got it. !!      thanks for all the advice   :beer:
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2019, 12:28:43 PM »
ok, ok .. man up and take a file to it, got it. !!      thanks for all the advice   
Not to the hole!
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flatlanderjet

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2019, 12:39:00 PM »
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Flusher

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Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2019, 05:58:54 PM »
Do not file, machine, or otherwise open the pin bores.  Likewise, do not alter the bushings.

The issue is that something is holding the Diverter from seating properly in the bowl socket.

Judging by your first picture, you bowl socket has a healthy wear pattern.  Please also see Picture 1 of C bowl below.  Usually these bowls have so much wear that the O-ring hardly touches at all.  The O-ring often has quite a bit of interference, that is why I said to file the O-ring.  Never did I say  to alter the bores or the bushings.

Sometimes the lands (see Picture 2), on either side of the O-ring, might rub and/or prevent the Place Diverter ball from seating down properly where you can install the pins.  If you see indications of contact with the bowl socket, file these areas down.  You should have no aluminum to aluminum contact.

The last place where you might run into interference would be in the area shown below in Picture 3.  It appears that, in your third picture, you have already ground that surface down.

The pins are all interchangeable between your original equipment and your new Place Diverter pins, the only difference being the length.  There shouldn't  be  any discrepancy in diameter.  Place Diverter's machine work is all really nice, but if for some reason, the pin doesn't fit (tight) in the Ball, you might need to gently sand (by hand) out the powder coat.

I would recommend not removing the Teflon O-ring from the Ball.  The Teflon will stretch and permanently distort.

You need to look and see where the interference is, and adjust accordingly.
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perryb

  • Karma: +3/-0
Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2019, 07:27:41 PM »
You probably got a poorly machined diverter. From the description, I'm almost certain the pin bores are not coaxial. When you get one side in, how far off is the other? A few thousandth, or is it more? I had a little quality control issue with Place myself recently, they seem to be having a hard time making straight rudders.
If it's not straight, send it back. It's a pain and it kills time, but the manufacturer should be the one who has to make it right, not you.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 08:05:05 PM by perryb »
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flatlanderjet

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2019, 10:49:17 PM »
Do not file, machine, or otherwise open the pin bores.  Likewise, do not alter the bushings.

The issue is that something is holding the Diverter from seating properly in the bowl socket.

Judging by your first picture, you bowl socket has a healthy wear pattern.  Please also see Picture 1 of C bowl below.  Usually these bowls have so much wear that the O-ring hardly touches at all.  The O-ring often has quite a bit of interference, that is why I said to file the O-ring.  Never did I say  to alter the bores or the bushings.

Sometimes the lands (see Picture 2), on either side of the O-ring, might rub and/or prevent the Place Diverter ball from seating down properly where you can install the pins.  If you see indications of contact with the bowl socket, file these areas down.  You should have no aluminum to aluminum contact.

The last place where you might run into interference would be in the area shown below in Picture 3.  It appears that, in your third picture, you have already ground that surface down.

The pins are all interchangeable between your original equipment and your new Place Diverter pins, the only difference being the length.  There shouldn't  be  any discrepancy in diameter.  Place Diverter's machine work is all really nice, but if for some reason, the pin doesn't fit (tight) in the Ball, you might need to gently sand (by hand) out the powder coat.

I would recommend not removing the Teflon O-ring from the Ball.  The Teflon will stretch and permanently distort.

You need to look and see where the interference is, and adjust accordingly.

I have not altered the pin (pivot) bores or the nylon bushings. It's true a picture can tell a thousand words. As you noticed I have removed the powder coat around the bore hole(s) which appeared to be a contact point. The O ring land in your picture that faces the bowl appears to have had the coating ground off, am I correct?      This may well be the mil thickness preventing the alignment on my diverter.
Also could a gentle sanding (very fine grit) of the O ring buy some clearance and not affect function?
Thanks for your pictures and detailed advice, it really helps.



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« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 05:48:30 AM by flatlanderjet »
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flatlanderjet

  • Karma: +1/-0
Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2019, 10:56:15 PM »
You probably got a poorly machined diverter. From the description, I'm almost certain the pin bores are not coaxial. When you get one side in, how far off is the other? A few thousandth, or is it more? I had a little quality control issue with Place myself recently, they seem to be having a hard time making straight rudders.
If it's not straight, send it back. It's a pain and it kills time, but the manufacturer should be the one who has to make it right, not you.

I agree completely with your comment, but I'm a international border away and balls deep into shipping and exchange rates so I'm going to press on and make it work.
Also if I ever have to deal with UPS again I may open a vein.


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« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 10:59:15 PM by flatlanderjet »
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perryb

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Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2019, 06:08:47 AM »
Sorry, I originally missed your location as being Alberta. Yes shipping between US and Canada sucks, I've sent aircraft parts and it was quite a hassle. So how far off is the bottom pin once the top is in ?
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2019, 06:23:45 AM »
The powder coat causes all kinds of interference issues.  In some cases, it can be over .030" thick.  The white from Place really isn't so bad.

It appears that what you are seeing in my picture is caused by sand getting trapped between the ball and the socket, grinding as the steering wheel is turned.
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flatlanderjet

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2019, 11:24:03 PM »
Sorry, I originally missed your location as being Alberta. Yes shipping between US and Canada sucks, I've sent aircraft parts and it was quite a hassle. So how far off is the bottom pin once the top is in ?

literally the thickness of your finger nail, but it's enough to stop the pivot pin. Flushers advice to locate where contact is being made and remedy what's inhibiting clearance is my next task. But I'm leaving on holiday (minus diverter) for 2 weeks and will tackle this when I return.


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flatlanderjet

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Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2019, 04:08:28 PM »

back from holidays now and going to tackle the diverter installation.
 
any opinions and/or experience for the best location for the cable to exit the transom?
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Flusher

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Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2019, 06:20:31 PM »


any opinions and/or experience for the best location for the cable to exit the transom?

I put it next to the "B" in Berkeley, top left side of the transom cover.  Drill a hole, just big enough for the small end of the cable (handle end) to go through.

Verify from the inside that where you are about to drill leaves enough room for nuts on the inside.  Drilling and tapping the transom cover will be easier to service it, if you have the means.
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flatlanderjet

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2019, 07:52:28 PM »

I put it next to the "B" in Berkeley, top left side of the transom cover.  Drill a hole, just big enough for the small end of the cable (handle end) to go through.

Verify from the inside that where you are about to drill leaves enough room for nuts on the inside.  Drilling and tapping the transom cover will be easier to service it, if you have the means.
[/

If not through the transom cover, where on the transom? I have seen a couple places used (centre above cover was nice & tidy) (Place recommends left side looking at the back) .


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Flusher

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Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2019, 04:24:09 AM »
I personally don't like drilling unnecessary holes in the hull.  If you prefer that it not be located in transom cover, that's fine too.  That makes it easier when you have to pull the pump,

My opinion is that it is always better when through-transom fittings are licated above waterline.

Wherever you locate it, just make sure that that you have enough slack so the cable doesn't bind as the steering nozzle and Diverter sweeps its full range of motion.

Place Diverter recommends on the left side so that when installed, the cable is bent into an "S" shape over the top of the pump.  That manages the cable nicely, preventing binding, and producing a nice low-profile loop.
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flatlanderjet

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2019, 04:30:36 PM »
I personally don't like drilling unnecessary holes in the hull.  If you prefer that it not be located in transom cover, that's fine too.  That makes it easier when you have to pull the pump,

My opinion is that it is always better when through-transom fittings are licated above waterline.

Wherever you locate it, just make sure that that you have enough slack so the cable doesn't bind as the steering nozzle and Diverter sweeps its full range of motion.

Place Diverter recommends on the left side so that when installed, the cable is bent into an "S" shape over the top of the pump.  That manages the cable nicely, preventing binding, and producing a nice low-profile loop.

Agreed, I also 'hate' drilling the fibreglass. I'm trying my best to keep this boat as original as possible (just updating it). If you saw my post '(not so) new member', I consider this boat to be a barn find. (51hrs) on meter and literally unmolested.

appreciate your advice and opinions


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Flusher

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Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2019, 12:32:53 PM »
Don't forget pictures when you get it done.
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flatlanderjet

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2019, 08:35:27 AM »
Don't forget pictures when you get it done.

first off , thanks for your valuable suggestions and advice!
it turned out to be the O-ring just like you said.
the strange things that happen though...it takes me longer to remove the original nozzle (which I had just removed and reinstalled) than it took to install the new place diverter (head scratch)
I took the powder coat just off the face near the 0-ring (but prolly didn't need to) then gently took the O-ring down using a med. grit sandpaper    and      BaaBam!!
steering hooked up, bucket hooked up
now agonizing over cable hole in transom (that's today's project)




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flatlanderjet

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Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2019, 08:02:36 PM »
Don't forget pictures when you get it done.

trying not to sound like a 'little bitch' but...this was stressful!
taking a spade bit to the original '40yr old virgin' gel coat
is traumatizing.
"I think it's all coming together"
note: that's a reflection in the pictures, not a scratch
(still have to mount the stringer control handle)
but I need a day to get over this brutal deflowering...lol

ps. I have some original nozzle parts for sale and I guess a 15" pleasure saddle ??

(thx flusher)

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« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 05:40:33 AM by flatlanderjet »
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perryb

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Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2019, 04:56:31 PM »
I know the feeling. You stand there, drill in hand, trying to make yourself pull the trigger.
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flatlanderjet

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Re: Place Diverter installation fit issues
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2019, 07:55:48 AM »
    well here's to happy endings, 



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