SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: jkeizer on June 25, 2013, 06:18:30 PM
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Hey guys, Im having a couple issues. I have a 455 in a 75 Sanger SUperjet and Im having a problem with it falling on its face at higher rpm. I do know that BBO dont "like" to be ran at higher rpm for very long but it doesnt take long for it to cut out real bad. it almost seems like it runs out of fuel so im going to try and get a different fuel pump and see if it continues to do it. Another issue im having is timing... its at 22 deg initial and only 13 deg of advance. I got a mechanical advance curve spring and weight set and also see if that helps. ive done a compression test and they are about 150. it idles fine and cruises just fine, but as soon as i get to higher rmp it just dies. if anyone has an idea of why it may be doing it i would appreciate the info.
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Put the timing at 34 to 36 that should help.
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For the initial?
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34 to start then if needed the move it more my 455 is set at 35 runs good
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I think you have your terms backwards. 13 at idle and 22 with throttle, maybe all in by 2500 rpms or so.
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ok dies as in starts cutting out or just shuts off? mechanical or electric fuel pump???
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Never seen a 455 with a face.... ::)
Hey guys, Im having a couple issues. I have a 455 in a 75 Sanger SUperjet and Im having a problem with it falling on its face at higher rpm. I do know that BBO dont "like" to be ran at higher rpm for very long but it doesnt take long for it to cut out real bad. it almost seems like it runs out of fuel so im going to try and get a different fuel pump and see if it continues to do it.
Sounds like you already found your problem.. A fuel pressure gauge costs very little and can provide very valuable information.
Another issue im having is timing... its at 22 deg initial and only 13 deg of advance. I got a mechanical advance curve spring and weight set and also see if that helps. ive done a compression test and they are about 150. it idles fine and cruises just fine, but as soon as i get to higher rmp it just dies. if anyone has an idea of why it may be doing it i would appreciate the info.
Sounds like fuel...
FWIW, the ignition timing at lower RPM is pretty irrelevant, the only thing a jet boat needs lower ignition timing for is starting the engine hot... The timing when "all in" should end up in the 34* BTDC range, ignition timing will not cause a bog or stall. IMHO
GT
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Thanks GT I will try this on the weekend. Even know this is not my post its always good to here from someone else's info.
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Thanks GT I will try this on the weekend. Even know this is not my post its always good to here from someone else's info.
I would go with that. Fuel pressure being vital, as well as total timing. You also don't indicate a mechanical or vacuum advance distributor, just the weight set. BIG difference.
I'm gonna go with vacuum advance, since most Olds had that. Which could tie the two problems together with a simple vacuum leak.
First rule of jet boats. Dump ANY and ALL Vacuum advance Dizzy's. Worthless.
Second rule of jet boats, and I see this all the time on Holley's, a good high flow, inline filter before the pump and after, and ELIMINATE the bronze ones in the carb fuel inlet fittings. All they do is slow down flow at that point to a trickle and are designed for street engines that do not operate at the sustained RPM we do.
Now beyond those two rules, there are several. "Read your plugs, and read your plugs" and several solid others, but others you'll hear are life saving! Like "Never believe Ralph about how fast his Family Boat is", "Never get towed in by Brad unless it's an emergency", "Never believe Rivertard when he says 'The roost won't hurt, drive through it'", Or when he says "I'll respect you in the morning"
Never believe Hallett Dave when he says 'he approves this message" because he has NO IDEA what the message was initially. Never believe Aquaholic that the best money he ever spent was on an outdrive deckboat (The text to PROVE this is on my phone)
Take Anything we tell you with a grain of salt, as my Grampa used to say. It's VERY easy for any of us to spend YOUR money on OUR dream equipment. Some of us have ALL of that dream equipment. Some of us have experience with SOME of that dream equipment. Bear that in mind. Most are on a budget, and opt for the HEI ignition (Dumbest move ever, IMHO, and many will back me up, but the cheapest move available)
THIS is what you have to be open minded to! ;)
RAy
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I would go with that. Fuel pressure being vital, as well as total timing. You also don't indicate a mechanical or vacuum advance distributor, just the weight set. BIG difference.
I'm gonna go with vacuum advance, since most Olds had that. Which could tie the two problems together with a simple vacuum leak.
First rule of jet boats. Dump ANY and ALL Vacuum advance Dizzy's. Worthless.
Second rule of jet boats, and I see this all the time on Holley's, a good high flow, inline filter before the pump and after, and ELIMINATE the bronze ones in the carb fuel inlet fittings. All they do is slow down flow at that point to a trickle and are designed for street engines that do not operate at the sustained RPM we do.
Now beyond those two rules, there are several. "Read your plugs, and read your plugs" and several solid others, but others you'll hear are life saving! Like "Never believe Ralph about how fast his Family Boat is", "Never get towed in by Brad unless it's an emergency", "Never believe Rivertard when he says 'The roost won't hurt, drive through it'", Or when he says "I'll respect you in the morning"
Never believe Hallett Dave when he says 'he approves this message" because he has NO IDEA what the message was initially. Never believe Aquaholic that the best money he ever spent was on an outdrive deckboat (The text to PROVE this is on my phone)
Take Anything we tell you with a grain of salt, as my Grampa used to say. It's VERY easy for any of us to spend YOUR money on OUR dream equipment. Some of us have ALL of that dream equipment. Some of us have experience with SOME of that dream equipment. Bear that in mind. Most are on a budget, and opt for the HEI ignition (Dumbest move ever, IMHO, and many will back me up, but the cheapest move available)
THIS is what you have to be open minded to! ;)
RAy
I pride myself on trying to provide complete and concise posts.... This right here is the holy grail...
I salute you... ;D
Only problem is, I am not a huge fan of plug reading, I use it to make sure I am playing on the right kind of field.... Don't want to be playing soccer on an ice rink... :-\
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I pride myself on trying to provide complete and concise posts.... This right here is the holy grail...
I salute you... ;D
Only problem is, I am not a huge fan of plug reading, I use it to make sure I am playing on the right kind of field.... Don't want to be playing soccer on an ice rink... :-\
We can agree to disagree, Glenn. Personally, I can't see plug readings being more important that in a Jet Boat, Or a Cessna........and you oughta see a Cessna's plugs, not nothing close to ours, and have to be read by a certified technician after 100 hours or flight................
So I guess it's not important...... ;)
RAy
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We can agree to disagree, Glenn. Personally, I can't see plug readings being more important that in a Jet Boat, Or a Cessna........and you oughta see a Cessna's plugs, not nothing close to ours, and have to be read by a certified technician after 100 hours or flight................
So I guess it's not important...... ;)
RAy
Wont beat this horse until it no longer sucks air, but plug reading is rarely done properly. by that I mean the engine has to be run balls to the walls and literally shut off at the key, if it decels or even idles for five seconds, the information is completely useless.... JMHO
Seen many people struggle with this over the years and have come to the conclusion that the infra red thermometer and the wide band o2 sensor with a data logger are the greatest invention of our time.
GT
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We can agree to disagree, Glenn. Personally, I can't see plug readings being more important that in a Jet Boat, Or a Cessna........and you oughta see a Cessna's plugs, not nothing close to ours, and have to be read by a certified technician after 100 hours or flight................
So I guess it's not important...... ;)
RAy
Come on ray
Cessna's are prop jobs :screwy:
Most of us rock jets 8)
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As for the timing at idle it sits at 22 and with reading I've done it should be between 12-14 and at about 2500 rpm it will only advance 13 deg. I dropped it to 16 at idle and it will still only advance 13. I do have an electric fuel pump. It is also a vacuum advance dist. It has a holley 750 on it with a torker manifold. I'm going to get a fuel pressure gauge today and see how much pressure I have. Recommendations on what the pressure should be at?
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It doesn't completely shut of at higher rpm it just bogs real bad and ill let off and then get back on the throttle but consistently does it. It'll cruise at 3k-3200 just fine but if I jump on it at all it stalls out.
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6-7 psi for fuel pressure. And I'd say its a fuel problem, either fuel pump is not keeping up or your floats in the carb are too low causing the engine to starve for fuel. Also make sure fuel pump has battery voltage and its ground is good. Imho
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Ok I will check that out hopefully after I get off work today.
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As for the timing at idle it sits at 22 and with reading I've done it should be between 12-14 and at about 2500 rpm it will only advance 13 deg. I dropped it to 16 at idle and it will still only advance 13. I do have an electric fuel pump. It is also a vacuum advance dist. It has a holley 750 on it with a torker manifold. I'm going to get a fuel pressure gauge today and see how much pressure I have. Recommendations on what the pressure should be at?
OK, First, the ignition COULD be the issue with even the slightest vacuum leak. Second, did you follow rule #2? Fuel COULD be available but NOT getting into the carb.
Good setup, really (Other than the vacuum advance dizzy.......who was it on here selling a converted Olds Mallory YL/Unilite deal? Get with this kid!!!) I'd rather see an 850 on it, but a solid combo you DO have.
The last thing that will make an engine "peter out" at RPM is weak or improper valve springs. I'm really doubting that is the problem in your case. I think it is the combination of bolt on's that can fix it. Why oh WHY an electric pump? My Pickle had one, drove me nuts, it's a solution to a non-problem.......Get a good mechanical on there like a Clay Smith or a Carter Marine, and call it good for at least a decade.
Some thread on this site there is a nice, converted to Unilite, Mallory YL for Oldsmobile for sale dirt cheap. Buy it, and use it. Remove the bronze filters from your carbs, and put good in-line filters in.
I think your problems will be solved right there for under a hundo......... ;)
Ray
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When I got the boat it had a electric pump on it and I do have in line filters. I'm going to make sure the filters are removed from the carb. I've had a lot of people tell me put and hei in and others say no. A buddy just put one on his bbc seems to be ok.
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Could be point bounce - I'd go with the HEI post haste. Also I believe that you can tell a lot from reading the plugs even if you didn't follow the 'correct' procedure.
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When I got the boat it had a electric pump on it and I do have in line filters. I'm going to make sure the filters are removed from the carb. I've had a lot of people tell me put and hei in and others say no. A buddy just put one on his bbc seems to be ok.
A GM HEI is hard to beat in my opinion, but it has to be set up correctly. Always use a genuine GM module, Autozone and the like are very cheap inferior copies. I wouldn't use an MSD module either.
Use a vacuum advance lock plate http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Vacuum-Advance-Lock-Plate,7317.html (http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Vacuum-Advance-Lock-Plate,7317.html)
And a spring kit, with the lightest springs http://www.speedwaymotors.com/HEI-Advance-Curve-Kit,740.html (http://www.speedwaymotors.com/HEI-Advance-Curve-Kit,740.html)
Use quality cap, (brass nipples), rotor, a good coil, and good plug wires.
I've been running a Carter electric pump for 14 years, It has served me well. Tank to spin on fuel filter, to fuel switch, to fuel pump, to carb, and its always at 7 psi. Bob set it up that way years ago, still works great.
Dan'l
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A GM HEI is hard to beat in my opinion, but it has to be set up correctly. Always use a genuine GM module, Autozone and the like are very cheap inferior copies. I wouldn't use an MSD module either.
Yes and with HEI make sure you have 12 volts with a heavy gauge wire. I cheated and used a relay. The original power wire to my points is now my trigger to a relay that uses straight battery voltage when the circuit is closed. I understand a HEI will fail quick if its under voltaged. Also I read modules and coils are matched together. GM mod with gm coil, msd with msd etc. I do also always carry a spare module and coil from a junk yard. I've never looked back after switching to HEI setup.
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the infra red thermometer .
GT
How do use the infra red thermometer to tune jets? Like an EGT without the hassle of hooking it up? Interesting. What temp number you look for? Around 1200*F outside of header tube? I would also "assume" shut off the water to headers to get a real reading and add some more blue to my chrome? :banghead: Damn I never thought of that. I to think I was just using the gun for checking oil temp and silver bullets.
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I wouldn't use a stock HEI. Mine is a marine model with USCG approval sticker on it (just like my carb, and starter), at the very least you need a marine cap but even still the Coast Guard (if you are under their scrutiny) may think differently. And in the event of a fire your insurance may not cover your loss... Just sayin'
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I wouldn't use a stock HEI. Mine is a marine model with USCG approval sticker on it (just like my carb, and starter), at the very least you need a marine cap but even still the Coast Guard (if you are under their scrutiny) may think differently. And in the event of a fire your insurance may not cover your loss... Just sayin'
All of this is absolutely true, for under an engine cover.
Open engines, this is not required.
Just because it has a USCG tag on it, doesn't mean its better, more expensive, yes, better? no.
Good example- Lifeline race jackets, No USCG cert
Dan'l
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When I get home I'll take a photo and show you 2 Edelbrock 600 carbs, both the same age and both exposed to marine environments 1 is marine,the other isn't - I got 2 HEI's the same way. Plus the Marine Edelbrock has a "J" vent tube and is made to rock& roll (around), and the Marine HEI is sealed to prevent water entry. Run what you want but quality pays off in the end, it may be cheaper to buy an automotive part but you'll replace it sooner.
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When I get home I'll take a photo and show you 2 Edelbrock 600 carbs, both the same age and both exposed to marine environments 1 is marine,the other isn't - I got 2 HEI's the same way. Plus the Marine Edelbrock has a "J" vent tube and is made to rock& roll (around), and the Marine HEI is sealed to prevent water entry. Run what you want but quality pays off in the end, it may be cheaper to buy an automotive part but you'll replace it sooner.
Agreed! :thumbup:
I don't put anything non-Marine rated on any boat. Regardless if it has an enclosed engine or not. But that's me. All it takes is a small fuel leak and a spark, and VOILA! You got a weenie roast!
Mostly, the Marine Dizzy's are simply shielded from THROWING any sparks, not water proofing. Same with Alternators and Starters. Carbs and fuel pumps are another matter that deserve some more credit than just the "J" vent tubes.
But this isn't about safety. It's about getting this kids boat running right.
Really, WHO HAS that Olds Mallory Dizzy and Coil for sale? Anybody know? Help this kid out! :sly:
Ray
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I've questioned that once and the way I see it is many a 60s, 70s and 80s cars ran a carb without any marine equipment and never burnt down from fumes, and for a fact my engine on my floater is WAY more air'd out than any doorslammer. Not to mention my engine is n way better shape of a tune compared to a daily driver..ex no spark wires arcing across engine parts etc. So I'm not buying that idea, if you have a wide open engine on a boat it has plenty of air out room.
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It has a Mallory on it right now. Olds 417961. YL-501-AV.
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And I have no idea what manufacture the fuel pump is. It says 5.5-9 psi is that good enough?
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Damn thing wont let me quote.
5.5-9 at what flow rate?
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I've questioned that once and the way I see it is many a 60s, 70s and 80s cars ran a carb without any marine equipment and never burnt down from fumes, and for a fact my engine on my floater is WAY more air'd out than any doorslammer. Not to mention my engine is n way better shape of a tune compared to a daily driver..ex no spark wires arcing across engine parts etc. So I'm not buying that idea, if you have a wide open engine on a boat it has plenty of air out room.
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The bowl arrangement allows for rock and roll of the boat, a car carb quickly catches fire in rough seas. I don't remember carburated cars the way you do, I had a '56 Chevy, 69 Winnebago, and 72 WV bus that all caught fire - the VW twice. This time of year lots of tourist come through this area, many of which are in older motorhomes - several burn every year, actually I passed a burnt out hulk of one at the top of the mountain between here and Arcata today.
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I've questioned that once and the way I see it is many a 60s, 70s and 80s cars ran a carb without any marine equipment and never burnt down from fumes, and for a fact my engine on my floater is WAY more air'd out than any doorslammer. Not to mention my engine is n way better shape of a tune compared to a daily driver..ex no spark wires arcing across engine parts etc. So I'm not buying that idea, if you have a wide open engine on a boat it has plenty of air out room.
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Well, you can say "I've never died from unprotected sex, so why wear a condom when with random women?" .......Same thing! :screwy:
Only takes ONCE! Trukinbear has the idea.........
Biesemeyer Jet Boat fire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL0_QvoaviQ#)
Ray
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Honestly have no idea of the rate flow.
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Well, you can say "I've never died from unprotected sex, so why wear a condom when with random women?" .......Same thing! :screwy:
Only takes ONCE! Trukinbear has the idea.........
Biesemeyer Jet Boat fire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL0_QvoaviQ#)
Ray
Touche' Ray! Hope those people got out ok, amazing how long a boat burns isn't it?
65 gallons of high test gasoline under my ass with a sheet of plywood and a layer of carpet between the gas and my ass - fire is my worst fear in a boat, even if you get out of the boat there is always the chance that the gas will spread-out and still get you.
The distributor has to pretty much be airtight to keep it from igniting gas laden air that might have entered it - pretty much waterproof too even if that wasn't their primary objective. Car starters and alternators hate being in a very moist environment, much less being occasionally submerged. Even if you don't have a fire, I can pretty well promise you that after a few years those parts will look like hell, if they still work.
Back on topic, I'd bet you don't have a BAD distributor but the art of setting up points ignition is a lost art, back in the day we even had to look at it's operation with an oscilloscope. Gap, dwell, resistance, follower wear, weak spring, pits, etc... A modern electronic system (I'm partial to GM style HEI) will be much easier to tune.
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Touche' Ray! Hope those people got out ok, amazing how long a boat burns isn't it?
65 gallons of high test gasoline under my ass with a sheet of plywood and a layer of carpet between the gas and my ass - fire is my worst fear in a boat, even if you get out of the boat there is always the chance that the gas will spread-out and still get you.
The distributor has to pretty much be airtight to keep it from igniting gas laden air that might have entered it - pretty much waterproof too even if that wasn't their primary objective. Car starters and alternators hate being in a very moist environment, much less being occasionally submerged. Even if you don't have a fire, I can pretty well promise you that after a few years those parts will look like hell, if they still work.
Back on topic, I'd bet you don't have a BAD distributor but the art of setting up points ignition is a lost art, back in the day we even had to look at it's operation with an oscilloscope. Gap, dwell, resistance, follower wear, weak spring, pits, etc... A modern electronic system (I'm partial to GM style HEI) will be much easier to tune.
Was MY BOAT!!!!
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Well put a new fuel pump in and gauge an it's reading 7 psi and put an new gm HEI everything seems to be a lot better. Ill find out for sure on Saturday when I take the boat out. Thanks for all the advice!
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Good luck! Sounds great have so much fun on the water that you forget you were worried about it in the first place.
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