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Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: eliminator18 on February 08, 2015, 09:18:40 AM
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Should I stay at 468 or make it 496?
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Should I stay at 468 or make it 496?
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If you have the money go with a 496 👍👍👍
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Should I stay at 468 or make it 496?
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496! 👍👍
"RTCP"
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I've had both. 496 all the way
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Depends on what you are doing. If you need a new crank and rods I would say 496. You will get a 35 to 45 hp gain that will cost you around 3 grand extra. I have a 496 motor that is close to Jakes motor both are 13 to 1 but not sure I make anymore horse power then Jake does with his 468.
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Depends on what you are doing. If you need a new crank and rods I would say 496. You will get a 35 to 45 hp gain that will cost you around 3 grand extra. I have a 496 motor that is close to Jakes motor both are 13 to 1 but not sure I make anymore horse power then Jake does with his 468.
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I think your motor makes 810 or 820. 👍👍😝😝😝 how big is the cam in that thing btw?
What It all comes down to is money. If your building one from the ground up I would go with a 496 for sure.
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Do stroker motors tend to have more torque?
Don't know why I think that, probably read it somewhere. :o
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Do stroker motors tend to have more torque?
Don't know why I think that, probably read it somewhere. :o
I would say yes they do but it still depends on the build.
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I think your motor makes 810 or 820. 👍👍😝😝😝 how big is the cam in that thing btw?
What It all comes down to is money. If your building one from the ground up I would go with a 496 for sure.
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. Not 100% sure I will be meeting with Bostick next week and I will let you know big NOS cam is all I know.
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Do stroker motors tend to have more torque?
Don't know why I think that, probably read it somewhere. :o
Normally yes, torque goes hand in hand with cubic inch, and displacement is nothing more than bore and stroke. Torque is the grunt that moves the mass, and that's all crank arm. Horsepower is a direct relationship with RPM, volumetric efficiency and how much work an engine can do in a period of time, in other words no engine can create high HP numbers without RPM.
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You won't necessarily need a new set of connecting rods unless you want a longer or different style rod. You will need a different stroke crankshaft and a different compression height set of pistons.
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This is correct, but also keeping the stock rod length of 6.135 and having a 4.250 stroke will give you a horrible rod ratio of 1.44. I would at least go with a .250 long rod, but best of all a .400 long rod, that will put the rod ratio back to where a stock 454 would be, so piston skirt side loading and bore wear will be kept at a minimum.
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Do stroker motors tend to have more torque?
Don't know why I think that, probably read it somewhere. :o
This is an interesting question that I actually had to think about before posting.
Ordinarily the answer would be absolutely.
However, traditionally the smaller cubes run at much higher crankshaft speeds. Which as I have been harping for years, does you no good at all.
The cubic inch gain does way more for you in this case than does the stroke change. It all comes down to volumetric efficiency and piston speed.
I don't doubt the torque will increase, but not in the terms the automotive guys will term it.
You can make more peak hp with more cubes, which comes from the added torque.
The reason I say this is because if you had two engines with the same displacement but one had a longer stroke, the torque difference on the top end would be very similar if built the same. That being said, the longer stroke engine could build more mid range grunt and likely take advantage of doing the same work at a lower rpm.
This is where the stroke increase can shine like a new penny.
I know what you are going to say. If the rpm is lower at the same hp, the torque had to be higher. You are right, but you would be at a lower hp. So the math equals out.
Ever play with virtual dyno?
Pretty crazy.
Have fun. I always vote to build just a little bit more than you think you can afford. It has always worked for us.
If everybody built what they thought they could afford, there would be a lot more small block jets out there.
GT
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Edit. I have no idea what the hell I said earlier, but I fixed it. Never post before the second cup of Joe. ... hahaha...
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468, wouldn't waste my time on a 496, just go to a 502
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468, wouldn't waste my time on a 496, just go to a 502
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Why?
Honest question.
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Why?
Honest question.
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and I would say why 502 when you can go 540??? 😲
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and I would say why 502 when you can go 540??? 😲
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It's really funny you say that... I was thinking it when I hit post....
GT
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Why?
Honest question.
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and I would say why 502 when you can go 540??? 😲
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Well hell, at 468 your playing with the tip at 502 your full on jerking but if your gonna go balls deep screw the 540 and just go 572. It's not like we're spending the money.
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Well hell, at 468 your playing with the tip at 502 your full on jerking but if your gonna go balls deep screw the 540 and just go 572. It's not like we're spending the money.
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Dogs in the bathtub or nothing bro.
I just ask because it's my opinion that a 496 has a little superiority over a 502.
That is if you're building something from blown up chit.
GT
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Dogs in the bathtub or nothing bro.
I just ask because it's my opinion that a 496 has a little superiority over a 502.
That is if you're building something from blown up chit.
GT
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I blowed up 2 496's in my Chevelle. And I'm not talkin like pop done kinda blowed up, we're talking 1 piece stuff turning into multiple pieces and a couple windows kinda blowed up. I don't play around. So I put a healthy 468 in the car and it hasn't multiplied and parts yet and is doing fine. So to the op all bs aside. Build a 468 and when it pops then go up. Get more use out of the block that way.
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I blowed up 2 496's in my Chevelle. And I'm not talkin like pop done kinda blowed up, we're talking 1 piece stuff turning into multiple pieces and a couple windows kinda blowed up. I don't play around. So I put a healthy 468 in the car and it hasn't multiplied and parts yet and is doing fine. So to the op all bs aside. Build a 468 and when it pops then go up. Get more use out of the block that way.
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Sounds like an rpm kill. Both accounts.
I would recommend a 496 for a pull truck before a light car.
I would not turn a 496 harder than about 5,800 rpm.
Car torque is non linear, a 427 would be where I would have directed a Chevelle. (Speaking strictly stroke wise, not total inches ).
Jet pump torque is almost perfectly linear, right up until cavitation occurs.
Feel me?
GT
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I blowed up 2 496's in my Chevelle. And I'm not talkin like pop done kinda blowed up, we're talking 1 piece stuff turning into multiple pieces and a couple windows kinda blowed up. I don't play around. So I put a healthy 468 in the car and it hasn't multiplied and parts yet and is doing fine. So to the op all bs aside. Build a 468 and when it pops then go up. Get more use out of the block that way.
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thats what I did there is nothing wrong with a 468 unless you are already to the end of the block.
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Sounds like an rpm kill. Both accounts.
I would recommend a 496 for a pull truck before a light car.
I would not turn a 496 harder than about 5,800 rpm.
Car torque is non linear, a 427 would be where I would have directed a Chevelle. (Speaking strictly stroke wise, not total inches ).
Jet pump torque is almost perfectly linear, right up until cavitation occurs.
Feel me?
GT
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No joke, both times that happened were 1-2 shifts and the 1st time was around 6200 and the second was just under 6k. I was that ass that oiled the track and shut it down for an hour both times
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I have a 496 13 to 1 cr that runs 6600 on the motor and 7200 on NOS and has been good for two years so far.
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I have a 496 13 to 1 cr that runs 6600 on the motor and 7200 on NOS and has been good for two years so far.
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With a detailed B impeller.
"RTCP"
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I have a 496 13 to 1 cr that runs 6600 on the motor and 7200 on NOS and has been good for two years so far.
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AHH Dude! You just jinxed yourself. ;D
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No disrespect, but those engines didn't scatter because they were 496s.
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No disrespect, but those engines didn't scatter because they were 496s.
Well I'd like to know what caused it because the 468 I'm running now makes the same power and turns a little more rpm and has lasted 5 years with the occasional150 bottle tap. Both 496's had less than a year on them with no bottle and nothing has changed on the car except the motor.
But I wouldn't take a stock 454 and go straight to a 496, if step up as needed like I said earlier to get the most out of the motor. But me personally, I'll never run a 496 again, bad juju for me.
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AHH Dude! You just jinxed yourself. ;D
. I was knocking on wood. The piper was paid when it was built.
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No disrespect, but those engines didn't scatter because they were 496s.
Joe you could not be more on point.
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Well I'd like to know what caused it because the 468 I'm running now makes the same power and turns a little more rpm and has lasted 5 years with the occasional150 bottle tap. Both 496's had less than a year on them with no bottle and nothing has changed on the car except the motor.
Well... Who built the 496? The 468? Was there a post mortem done on the 496? If so, what were the results?
Just thinking, assuming the tune was right... Most strokers that I have seen use a Scat or Eagle crankshaft, and the vast majority use a cast steel crank. Some even use cast iron. As GT pointed out, those are better suited for tow trucks and not performance applications. The longer the stroke, the less overlap exists between the rod and main journals, the more that crankshaft is going to flex. Castings don't like to flex. Was it internally balanced? External balanced cranks flex more than internally balanced cranks because the because the counter weights on the damper and flywheel are not supported on both sides by a bearing. What kind of damper did it have and was it in good condition?
What about oiling? How did the bearings look?
You didn't mention the pistons. Did a piston break? Were they cast or forged?
What about the rods?
What about the main caps?
Etc. Etc. Etc...
If I have to sweep up all the little pieces of my life's savings, I would want to know what went wrong.
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I am really not a fan of boring OE blocks to the extreme. The cylinder walls flex too much, even with a "filled" block.
A siamesed bore bowtie or aftermarket block is much better suited to larger bores.
Once you hit that 4.375 and larger bore diameter, the heads really start working well. I would never go there on an OE block though.
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SV
BAM!
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To answer your questions flusher
Well... Who built the 496? The 468?
Jerry goodhall, he was a family friend who built all my grandfathers boat and drag car engines in the 80's and 90's. His work is something I would never question or doubt.
Was there a post mortem done on the 496? If so, what were the results?
First block split the crank at 4/5 and windowed the block, second time around I don't think there was really a way to find out what caused it but there were 2 broken rods, windowed 1/3 cylinders,cracked the block at #2 split the crank in 2 spots, bent the cam and munched a few pistons on valves.
Just thinking, assuming the tune was right... Most strokers that I have seen use a Scat or Eagle crankshaft, and the vast majority use a cast steel crank. Some even use cast iron. As GT pointed out, those are better suited for tow trucks and not performance applications. The longer the stroke, the less overlap exists between the rod and main journals, the more that crankshaft is going to flex. Castings don't like to flex.
Internals were scat if I remember correctly and the 468 that's still alive are eagle.
Was it internally balanced? External balanced cranks flex more than internally balanced cranks because the because the counter weights on the damper and flywheel are not supported on both sides by a bearing. What kind of damper did it have and was it in good condition?
The each rotating assembly's were balanced pretty damn close and a new balancer and flex plate were used on each motor. He said the motors were good to 8k but all the head work and cam profile were set up for 2500-7k. The block was suppose to be over built for the operating range we were aiming for and the valve springs were a little heavy for the cam,to prevent floating and rings were gapped for bottle use.
What about oiling? How did the bearings look?
Couldn't tell ya.
You didn't mention the pistons. Did a piston break? Were they cast or forged?
Forged and yah there were some cracks and breaks both times.
What about the rods?
They came with the cranks if I remember correctly so skat cranks with skat rods and eagle crank with eagle rods in the living motor.
What about the main caps?
Don't know what brand but they were both 4 bolt caps and I don't remember which one but one of the blocks had the outer bolts at an angle.
If I have to sweep up all the little pieces of my life's savings, I would want to know what went wrong.
Well you and me both but I was fortunate enough to only have to pay labor on the 3rd motor.
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If you already have a 468 block and you want to go to a 496 does the block need to be machined for it to fit a bigger crank? If so, what work needs to be done and what are the basic prices for that type of machine work?
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Here is a picture of a block with the clearance cut out for a 496.
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