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Beaveretriever

  • Karma: +34/-0
540" BBC Build questions
« on: January 08, 2014, 08:56:17 PM »
So like the title says I have a few questions about a 540 build. I have been kicking around the idea for sometime and I think that now I have finally put enough ducks in a row to start to gather some parts for a 540" motor one day.

I have a line on a few parts that I know I will have soon which has led me in the direction I want to go.

So what I want to do is get some opinions about parts for the motor such as heads, cam, main caps, stuff like that. Im a Volkswagen guy and I have never built a BBC. I know motors and what the parts do pretty well but the new trick stuff or cool stuff to do to the motor im not up to speed on.

The motor will go into my 19 Daytona. The boat is a super super light layup, as some of you guys know. Im going to run it injected with my new crower set up when its time to make the swap.

The parts that I know I will have for sure to start:

Dart Big M tall deck 4.500 bore block
4.250 crank ( no sure of the brand)

and that's about it lol.

Like I said im not sure what cam to run or what would be good heads. Im going to build the motor over a long period of time and on a tight budget. basically lots of used parts and swap meet stuff. That's just how I roll. I spend where I need to and save on others.

The Beav
  • Boat #1: 1981 Eliminator Daytona 19' Jet
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MorePower

  • Karma: +20/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2014, 09:03:41 PM »
Wish I could help! But I'll definitely be watching the progress. Good Luck brother!
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lupo1904

  • Karma: +9/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2014, 09:17:28 PM »
Dart pro1 345's you can get them cnc ported then just have your head guy come through and clean up there mess. Dont cut no corners,build a nice peice and come out tuff in the end. Good 4.25 crank $700to $1000 good rods $450 to 700 some srp pistons about $110 a peice and dont forget to use arp2000 rod bolts. Heads $2500 rocker $450, you understand. When i built my motor all i used were my heads and it cost me $9000 plus the $500 to send my carb to c and j


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Beaveretriever

  • Karma: +34/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2014, 09:35:21 PM »
Dart pro1 345's you can get them cnc ported then just have your head guy come through and clean up there mess. Dont cut no corners,build a nice peice and come out tuff in the end. Good 4.25 crank $700to $1000 good rods $450 to 700 some srp pistons about $110 a peice and dont forget to use arp2000 rod bolts. Heads $2500 rocker $450, you understand. When i built my motor all i used were my heads and it cost me $9000 plus the $500 to send my carb to c and j


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I do have a line on some brodix BB2 325cc polished. My motor has good valve train, like good rockers and stuff. Im pretty sure that the crank is a good piece. I might even know someone that has some new pistions in the box that I can get. I also have a friend whose aunt works at ARP so ARP bolts are definitely happening.
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Just Electric

  • Karma: +28/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2014, 09:41:24 PM »
And intake manifold spacers for your injection pretty sure it's a standard deck height and the test lupo covered. As far as cam goes that's a secret to making hp ask the person that's gonna do the line bore and balance of your crank what combos and hp target your trying to achieve. On 540 it's critical like any other bbc you have the right balancer on it too jmo


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jyeager

  • Karma: +62/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2014, 10:45:28 PM »
2 things I've always been told. Build the bottom end Solid and spend money on the heads. The heads your talking about. The bb2's are just as good as any dart or AFR head for the 540+ CI I love my set that I have. 
I can say what iam doing is very close to what your doing Dave. Just 60 over 555ci Dart big M block tall deck Callie's crank 4.250 ,Oliver rods, cp pistons,on E85 ect...
Cam I would use Chris Straub. It's who a lot of the guys I know use and what's in my deal.


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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2014, 11:11:58 PM »
If I were to build one I would get one of the packages through Ohio Crankshaft.

Under $6k and pretty much a bulletproof short block. I know that a couple of the marathon guys swear by them, that being said, they go through everything with a microscope before final assembly.

GT

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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Beaveretriever

  • Karma: +34/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2014, 11:20:02 PM »
If I were to build one I would get one of the packages through Ohio Crankshaft.

Under $6k and pretty much a bulletproof short block. I know that a couple of the marathon guys swear by them, that being said, they go through everything with a microscope before final assembly.

GT

I was just looking at those through eagle. The only part is I have a crank. So I don't need the whole package. But I could always get something like that then sell the crank I have or the one in the package I guess

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Beaveretriever

  • Karma: +34/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2014, 11:22:53 PM »
2 things I've always been told. Build the bottom end Solid and spend money on the heads. The heads your talking about. The bb2's are just as good as any dart or AFR head for the 540+ CI I love my set that I have. 
I can say what iam doing is very close to what your doing Dave. Just 60 over 555ci Dart big M block tall deck Callie's crank 4.250 ,Oliver rods, cp pistons,on E85 ect...
Cam I would use Chris Straub. It's who a lot of the guys I know use and what's in my deal.


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Hell at this point I may go bigger but that's all way into the future. This all is. Im slowly going to gather parts and info. I was thinking the same thing jake. Volkswagen are the same when you make them fast.

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Jet Boat Maloney

  • Karma: +9/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2014, 12:23:23 AM »
Are you guy going that direction for not only obvious HP but durability so you don't have to run the ragged edge?


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Rosario Brunetto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2014, 06:20:54 AM »
I had been looking to build a budget motor for my ultra lx 21 foot there is a company out in san Bernardino called MK HAMMER they sell marine products the have 3 big block motors 540 596 .just to start with for a about three thousand nine hundred ninty nine just for starers. build comes with dart m block crank pistons rings .then two to four grand more you can get a set of dart  racing heads 3 styles comes with roller rocker ready to assemble.or for thirteen thousand you can have a complete motor built.what do you guys think. Also they have ford products. Check it out MK HAMMER.com...

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Just Electric

  • Karma: +28/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2014, 07:08:23 AM »
Don't forget to get a nice set of crower rockers too 😄


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Rosario Brunetto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2014, 08:59:44 AM »
Thanks

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Just Electric

  • Karma: +28/-0
540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2014, 06:43:54 PM »
Of your on a budget look up sharroff racing engines he builds a turn key 540 for under 8gs


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Rosario Brunetto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2014, 06:46:10 PM »
Thanks

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Six-Oh-Nine

  • Karma: +28/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2014, 08:34:53 PM »
I'd say that I would figure out 1)What you're trying to do with this thing (goals)... Pump gas friendly big inch deal? Or high compression big hp deal? Cruiser? River hot rod? Full track and occasional river? Etc... 2) What do you actually have that you intend on using and/or to work with? and last... 3) What sort of final budget and time frame of build do you have in mind (small budget and need it done next week? Or build over time and aquire parts as you can afford them?)

If you can figure those three things out... then you can go about how you're gonna go about your build to meet those requirements and not either end up with something you compromise and are not happy with, or money spent on the wrong things, or a hodgepodge of parts that don't seem to work well together.

As far as generalities... the 540-555 combination is about your best bang for your buck as far as starting build from scratch goes. Pump gas deals in that range can easily make 800+hp with a nice set of done up nice heads and a camshaft that is ground for the combination and not just the 2nd from the biggest in the catalog. Obviously, higher compression (race fuel) builds can vary depending on just how stout you wish to go... from a reliable, river driver 13-ish:1 deal 950+hp to a full tilt drag, high matinance deal that would be well over 1K hp. The main difference in any of the builds is really, your goals, how often you want to work on the thing, and how deep into your pocket you wish to reach.

Several areas I would say that money is well spent is on quality parts and good machine work. Both of those can make the difference between something that rips and runs for years, and something that shits the bed the first time out. Another thing to keep in mind if you're swapmeet/craigslist/ebay bound for something like cylinder heads... unless you know where the parts have been, and who has done work on them... you must assume that they will need everything done. More times than not, I have found people bring in heads that are "fresh" or "only one season on them" that they bought for a "smoking deal" have one or more combination of the following: blown out guides, bullshit valve job, butcher port work, mismatched chamber sizes, corrosion, cracks, and/or used up valvetrain parts. When I did up Lupo's heads... even though they were supposed to be fairly new... the guides were shot due to poor valvetrain geometry, the chambers between heads were 4cc's different.

Build your bottom end with the best parts you can afford, and make sure ALL clearances are within a tolerance that is applicable to not only a marine engine, but your intended use.

Heads, intake, and cam is where the power is at... select wisely and make sure it all jives together. Poorly matched parts cost power and can have an adverse effect on reliability.

Check everything till you can recall what each part measures and it's clearances are off the top of your head (but still be sure to write everything down)... you can never check you work too much while mocking up and assembling... often times, if a mistake anywhere down the line has been made, THIS is where it will be caught and hopefully corrected before it goes in the boat. Assembling/building an engine is more than just stuffing the parts together and assembling a jigsaw puzzle... you need to check clearances, fit, valvetrain geometry, etc...

These are a few things to think about before you dive in... Hope this helps.

The Bostick ®
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The Bostick ®

Some people play hard to get, I play hard to want.

Beaveretriever

  • Karma: +34/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2014, 09:24:28 PM »
Thanks bostick

I want to build a nice motor for cruising and being able to stomp it once and awhile. Track time maybe but mainly just river racing. I have a line on some pistons 4.601 je but to run them with a .250 crank I need to run a 6.68 rod. They don't shelf those so I might go with 6.660 or run a bigger crank and run 6.58 rods. I looked at some prices for the rods, 6.660 since I have a crank and its way cheaper. Im a deal guy and trying to buy a house so it will be slow build over time as I find the good deals.

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Just Electric

  • Karma: +28/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2014, 09:30:32 PM »
I'd say that I would figure out 1)What you're trying to do with this thing (goals)... Pump gas friendly big inch deal? Or high compression big hp deal? Cruiser? River hot rod? Full track and occasional river? Etc... 2) What do you actually have that you intend on using and/or to work with? and last... 3) What sort of final budget and time frame of build do you have in mind (small budget and need it done next week? Or build over time and aquire parts as you can afford them?)

If you can figure those three things out... then you can go about how you're gonna go about your build to meet those requirements and not either end up with something you compromise and are not happy with, or money spent on the wrong things, or a hodgepodge of parts that don't seem to work well together.

As far as generalities... the 540-555 combination is about your best bang for your buck as far as starting build from scratch goes. Pump gas deals in that range can easily make 800+hp with a nice set of done up nice heads and a camshaft that is ground for the combination and not just the 2nd from the biggest in the catalog. Obviously, higher compression (race fuel) builds can vary depending on just how stout you wish to go... from a reliable, river driver 13-ish:1 deal 950+hp to a full tilt drag, high matinance deal that would be well over 1K hp. The main difference in any of the builds is really, your goals, how often you want to work on the thing, and how deep into your pocket you wish to reach.

Several areas I would say that money is well spent is on quality parts and good machine work. Both of those can make the difference between something that rips and runs for years, and something that shits the bed the first time out. Another thing to keep in mind if you're swapmeet/craigslist/ebay bound for something like cylinder heads... unless you know where the parts have been, and who has done work on them... you must assume that they will need everything done. More times than not, I have found people bring in heads that are "fresh" or "only one season on them" that they bought for a "smoking deal" have one or more combination of the following: blown out guides, bullshit valve job, butcher port work, mismatched chamber sizes, corrosion, cracks, and/or used up valvetrain parts. When I did up Lupo's heads... even though they were supposed to be fairly new... the guides were shot due to poor valvetrain geometry, the chambers between heads were 4cc's different.

Build your bottom end with the best parts you can afford, and make sure ALL clearances are within a tolerance that is applicable to not only a marine engine, but your intended use.

Heads, intake, and cam is where the power is at... select wisely and make sure it all jives together. Poorly matched parts cost power and can have an adverse effect on reliability.

Check everything till you can recall what each part measures and it's clearances are off the top of your head (but still be sure to write everything down)... you can never check you work too much while mocking up and assembling... often times, if a mistake anywhere down the line has been made, THIS is where it will be caught and hopefully corrected before it goes in the boat. Assembling/building an engine is more than just stuffing the parts together and assembling a jigsaw puzzle... you need to check clearances, fit, valvetrain geometry, etc...

These are a few things to think about before you dive in... Hope this helps.

The Bostick ®
glad to see bostic on the boards.if you guys want to see some kool builds from mild to wold follow him on fb he puts alot of free info on there on his builds welcome to the meyhem bud  :thumbup:
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Six-Oh-Nine

  • Karma: +28/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2014, 08:45:33 AM »
Thanks bostick

I want to build a nice motor for cruising and being able to stomp it once and awhile. Track time maybe but mainly just river racing. I have a line on some pistons 4.601 je but to run them with a .250 crank I need to run a 6.68 rod. They don't shelf those so I might go with 6.660 or run a bigger crank and run 6.58 rods. I looked at some prices for the rods, 6.660 since I have a crank and its way cheaper. Im a deal guy and trying to buy a house so it will be slow build over time as I find the good deals.

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What kind of compression you trying to go with? What heads? Figure out what you want instead of buying something because you got a deal on it. Typically, I like to stick to common size shelf items like pistons and rods whenever possible... (6.535 or 6.700 or 6.800 in the instances of a tall deck) there is such a great diversity of parts available that there is no need, in most cases, for custom, and makes for the ability to get exactly what you want. Also... it seems damn near a sin to mow a brand new block all the way out towards it's outer limits the first go around. Unless you have a particular cubic inch limit class you're trying to build and eek out every last bit of power, it's nice to allow yourself a few bores/rebuilds. I haven't seen much difference (albeit quite slight) between let's say 4.560 and 4.600 bores... but the 4.560 will allow for several bores left in the block.

Seeing that you are expecting this to be built over a period of time, create a game plan on exactly what you want to build, and then just pick up parts as you come across exactly what you want as you can afford them. I'd say that easily half the people I build engines for can't really afford exactly what they want right then and there... most of us, and I'm sure your in this boat as well, have to work for a living and pay bills and building a jetboat motor comes a little far down the priority list... 8-10-20K to drop is just not gonna happen... but the way we make it work is come up with a plan of exactly what we're gonna build, right down to a parts list, and then just start buying parts and doing work as the wallet will allow... it takes a little time (which you have)... but as long as you stick to the plan, you get exactly what you want, that will work as you want it, in a manner that you can afford.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 09:14:34 AM by Six-Oh-Nine »
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The Bostick ®

Some people play hard to get, I play hard to want.

Beaveretriever

  • Karma: +34/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2014, 09:45:06 AM »
What kind of compression you trying to go with? What heads? Figure out what you want instead of buying something because you got a deal on it. Typically, I like to stick to common size shelf items like pistons and rods whenever possible... (6.535 or 6.700 or 6.800 in the instances of a tall deck) there is such a great diversity of parts available that there is no need, in most cases, for custom, and makes for the ability to get exactly what you want. Also... it seems damn near a sin to mow a brand new block all the way out towards it's outer limits the first go around. Unless you have a particular cubic inch limit class you're trying to build and eek out every last bit of power, it's nice to allow yourself a few bores/rebuilds. I haven't seen much difference (albeit quite slight) between let's say 4.560 and 4.600 bores... but the 4.560 will allow for several bores left in the block.

Seeing that you are expecting this to be built over a period of time, create a game plan on exactly what you want to build, and then just pick up parts as you come across exactly what you want as you can afford them. I'd say that easily half the people I build engines for can't really afford exactly what they want right then and there... most of us, and I'm sure your in this boat as well, have to work for a living and pay bills and building a jetboat motor comes a little far down the priority list... 8-10-20K to drop is just not gonna happen... but the way we make it work is come up with a plan of exactly what we're gonna build, right down to a parts list, and then just start buying parts and doing work as the wallet will allow... it takes a little time (which you have)... but as long as you stick to the plan, you get exactly what you want, that will work as you want it, in a manner that you can afford.

Is the 4.601 bore to big in the Dart Big M block? I did find a set of rods new from callies for like $600 in the 6.660 size. The only thing im not sure of is can you run .020 in the hole and be ok? I come from building big hp Volkswagen motors and that's a normal thing to do. If I get the pistons for a great deal and spend money on good rods would that combo work? The heads I have will be Merlin rectangle port heads right now. If I come up on a good set of Dart or brodix then I will go that route. I want to stay with pump gas, no more compression than 10:1 or so. I know that you can make more cylinder pressure and make "fake compression" and still run pump gas and get the same power you can get by raising the compression a few points.
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Willow Wog

  • Karma: +6/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2014, 12:39:35 PM »
If I were to build one I would get one of the packages through Ohio Crankshaft.

Under $6k and pretty much a bulletproof short block. I know that a couple of the marathon guys swear by them, that being said, they go through everything with a microscope before final assembly.

GT
If you decide to go this route let me know dave they are in my town and I can handle shipping logistics with our spa crap!  :beer: :thumbup:
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Coors light dreaming on a Keystone budget...

Six-Oh-Nine

  • Karma: +28/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2014, 03:27:26 PM »
Is the 4.601 bore to big in the Dart Big M block? I did find a set of rods new from callies for like $600 in the 6.660 size. The only thing im not sure of is can you run .020 in the hole and be ok? I come from building big hp Volkswagen motors and that's a normal thing to do. If I get the pistons for a great deal and spend money on good rods would that combo work? The heads I have will be Merlin rectangle port heads right now. If I come up on a good set of Dart or brodix then I will go that route. I want to stay with pump gas, no more compression than 10:1 or so. I know that you can make more cylinder pressure and make "fake compression" and still run pump gas and get the same power you can get by raising the compression a few points.

It's not "too big", it's just hard to see going out that far leaving one more possible bore left on a new block... that's just me though... I'm cheap and like being able to get several builds out of parts. Pistons are really not that expensive... you can get a set of small SRP domes or even flat tops for your combo fairly reasonable... so, in my opinion, the JE's would have to be a screaming deal to settle on using a less than common rod and going all the way out to 4.600.

.020 in the hole is really not a big deal since you can just have the block decked to whatever height you want... and seeing that you want to go about 10:1 on an iron head... you're gonna need a tight quench. Here's the thing... 10:1 on an iron head is fine... actually, I've gone as much as 10.4:1 without issues at 34* timing, but if you go aluminum, then you'll be leaving some compression and power on the table... I've run just over 11:1 with no problems on aluminum heads cammed correctly and with a nice tight quench... that was my point of making a plan before you start snatching up parts. As far as "fake compression"... I have no idea what your getting at. The Darts and Brodix are a much better cylinder head... actually I prefer the Darts and really like the Edelbrock Victors as a nice lots of bang for the buck head.... back to the point... so besides from a compression standpoint, the port design, and the fact that they are a shit ton lighter, they offer a better starting point, and have greater potential worked over... but again, if you have merlins, plan on running the merlins, then build accordingly and run the merlins... if you plan on running aluminum, then build accordingly and run them.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 03:36:58 PM by Six-Oh-Nine »
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The Bostick ®

Some people play hard to get, I play hard to want.

Six-Oh-Nine

  • Karma: +28/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2014, 03:34:16 PM »
Btw... sorry if I seem like a dick and being negative on your build... that is not my intention.
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The Bostick ®

Some people play hard to get, I play hard to want.

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2014, 03:51:39 PM »
Btw... sorry if I seem like a dick and being negative on your build... that is not my intention.

I see no Dick  :- .... I see positive technical assistance and a personal opinion. Don't go getting all politically correct and shit....

Lol

I have given up that program, if people don't like my comments, no skin off my back.

GT

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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Willow Wog

  • Karma: +6/-0
Re: 540" BBC Build questions
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2014, 04:07:00 PM »
Btw... sorry if I seem like a dick and being negative on your build... that is not my intention.

This isn't pb. This is place is about people helping people without panties getting in a wad. I heard it as you giving us some damn good tech a voicing your opinion.  :beer:
  • Boat #1: 1977 Hawaiian model? southwind splash
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Coors light dreaming on a Keystone budget...

 


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