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metalmulisha5006

  • Karma: +1/-0
990's vs 781
« on: June 01, 2015, 07:16:18 PM »
My combo JC split bowl bronze b impellor
454 std bore
10.5 compression 119 cc
Eddy tunnel ram 2 750 double pumpers
243 intake
249 exhaust
.640.640 lift
110 centerline
106 lobe sep
Hyd roller
Turned Impellor 5400 rpm with sum carb probs with the 781's 2.19 1.88 valves blended bowls and gasket match ports..my 990's have 2.30 1.88 valves intake runner cc is 337 and 117cc combustion chamber... My question if I switched to rectangle port with a victor port matched intake and a 1050 would I pick up or hurt the combo
  • Boat #1: 77 python bubbledeck
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2015, 08:06:25 PM »
2.30" intake valve with 337cc port?  Sounds excessively hogged out.  Do you have any flow data on the 990 heads?

I think on a small 4.250" bore, 2.300 intakes will shroud the valves considerably.  337cc seems large for 990s.  I fear that any increase in flow will be accompanied with a decrease in velocity.

I know the exhaust side is weak on the 990s.  Assuming that the flow increased proportionally to the increase in valve size and volume (which I seriously doubt), you will need more lift on the exhaust side to get the exhaust valve to a point where it is flowing comparable to the intake.

Is this a planned purchase or you already have them?
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

metalmulisha5006

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2015, 08:17:36 PM »
I alrdy own them I cc'd them ..the exhaust is cut pretty wild too very nice port job I'll post pics tomorrow.. I have all the parts jus didn't kno if it's worth the swap ..everyone I ask says swap but they don't kno much about jet boats..kinda disappointed with the set up I have thought I woulda went faster
  • Boat #1: 77 python bubbledeck
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2015, 08:50:33 PM »
There is more to it than just horsepower.

Setup and hardware are everything!

Could you describe the rest of the boat or do you have a build thread?
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

TIMINATOR

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2015, 09:54:42 PM »
The typical crossover RPM between prepped ovals and squares is around 5800/6000. Below that ovals, above that squares make more power.
We built two identical 496s about 5 yrs ago for brothers. Comp solid roller cams: 246@.050 and .623 lift, performer airgap intakes, 850 holley dp, 9.6 compression, both sets pocket ported by me, 2.19/1.88 in both and unshrouded. 049s and 990s, its what they had. boats near identical 18 1/2 Kachina and Challenger, I built both pumps and did both set backs and set ups. both "A" impellers, both DPS inducers. both had Bassets and no mufflers. 049 boat: 73mph, 990 boat: 70, cut 990 impeller to "B" and they ran near identical, except it used more fuel, went BC on 990 boat and fuel was worse and gained only 1 mph. REMEMBER, these were 496s, we don't often bother with 454s.    TIMINATOR
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TUFENUF MARINE PERFORMANCE  623-877-8553
COMPLETE ENGINE MACHINESHOP & PERFORMANCE
JET PUMPS!!!
PM or call me with JETTECH questions for HOTBOAT MAGAZINE!!  see them in the magazine!! OOPS! not anymore! HOTBOAT is boobs up! MODESTY IS A CRUTCH FOR THE INCOMPETENT!

metalmulisha5006

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2015, 06:39:47 AM »
The boat is 18 ft python
From what I was told on here it's a bubbledeck style I've only seen one other hull like mine...prob cause it's not a good hull.. 3/4 stringer. Pump is in stock location and built by tom at jet boat performance..I don't have a loader but I'm ordering one today...the boat runs 68-69 depending on water..my 355 spun 5-5100 rpm at 61 mph...
  • Boat #1: 77 python bubbledeck
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2015, 06:59:55 AM »
Something is fundamentally wrong worth this set up.

5,400 rpm on a bronze B?
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

metalmulisha5006

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2015, 07:10:40 AM »
Yea by all means any info I'm open too..
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2015, 07:13:51 AM »
Something is fundamentally wrong worth this set up.

5,400 rpm on a bronze B?

And heads won't fix it imo.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

metalmulisha5006

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2015, 07:16:51 AM »
Wat will?
  • Boat #1: 77 python bubbledeck
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2015, 07:23:46 AM »
Wat will?

Not sure.

Tied up for a bit, but I'll be back. I have a few questions.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

metalmulisha5006

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2015, 07:28:10 AM »
Ok thanks
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TIMINATOR

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2015, 08:16:43 AM »
I agree, the set up/ RPM seems wrong. The first thing I'd do is check the tach. MSD and others make a digital tach checker. We check them for free here, you can't tune unless you know the truth. Most of the boat tachs we see are off from 200 to as much as 500 RPM at around 5000 RPM, mostly they read high, just like most non-GPS speedos. About 3 or 4 times a year we have guys come in with similar readings and when we check the tach, we find that they are set to the 6 cylinder position! I can understand that because most car guys with big blocks can't believe that their engine only turns 4200 RPM wide open.
In your case, I don't believe that is a correct RPM reading unless your pump is worn out or assembled incorrectly. With your engine, I would expect more along the lines of 4600.
I also believe that a loader will slow your boat by a few MPH too. We have plenty of 70 and 80 MPH boats out there without loaders. If the boat doesn't unload going down the lake, it will probably slow it. The river guys use them to keep loaded in the rough water of the river(Parker/Havasu) After doing the jetting/ timing thing, we take top and bottom pump pressures to see if the shoe/loader setup is correct. For most loaders, we end up going back to a rock grate to see where we are, checking the speed and pressures as we change stuff. Also, just because an impeller is stamped "A" doesn't mean it still is, it may have been modified and not correctly, or where it should be, and not restamped.
Some of the things that affect RPM in the pump are in no particular order: brand of impeller(legends and Aggressors are "tight"), shouldered or old type wear ring, wide or narrow wear ring, side and end wear ring clearances, age of impeller (beat up / eroded leading and trailing edges, brand of bowl, stuffer or not, clearance from impeller to bowl, nozzle size, age/wear in bowl, blueprinted bowl and/or impeller, loader, shoe, shape of hull in front of suction, angle of suction installation, ride plate angle, droop and what brand/type and length, brand of suction housing, type and fitment of clean out cover(yup, really!), and I'm sure GT will add some more that I haven't thought of!
Back to the engine now. IMHO I would try an RPM Airgap intake or a Dart singleplane intake with an 850 to a HP 970 carb with your setup. Try to borrow one before you buy. Most of our big valved, unshrouded, bowl ported, factory oval port headed, solid roller cammed, 496s run fastest with one of those intakes. They usually run about 75-80 at our altitude and 115 degree heat. Check the tach and bowl pressures, top and bottom before spending any cash. TIMINATOR
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TUFENUF MARINE PERFORMANCE  623-877-8553
COMPLETE ENGINE MACHINESHOP & PERFORMANCE
JET PUMPS!!!
PM or call me with JETTECH questions for HOTBOAT MAGAZINE!!  see them in the magazine!! OOPS! not anymore! HOTBOAT is boobs up! MODESTY IS A CRUTCH FOR THE INCOMPETENT!

metalmulisha5006

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2015, 08:52:08 AM »
Wonder if the back halfs of the carbs would help at wot...smh
  • Boat #1: 77 python bubbledeck
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2015, 09:43:54 AM »
Pretty easy way to smoke a motor. One of the questions I was going to ask was spark plug heat range and condition.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

metalmulisha5006

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2015, 09:48:52 AM »
Boat was lean..when I check the plugs they look white lol motor is brand new 
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2015, 10:07:51 AM »
Boat was lean..when I check the plugs they look white lol motor is brand new

I cannot stress enough how important it is to track the tune.

What water temperature, rpm, oil pressure,  fuel pressure, idle speed etc... if something suddenly changes, find out why.

You should be pulling at least one plug after every day of boating.

You should also be watching header tube discoloration.

GT
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 10:36:23 AM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

metalmulisha5006

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2015, 10:23:47 AM »
So do you think by the info given I should be able Togo in the 70's in proper working order
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2015, 10:42:03 AM »
So do you think by the info given I should be able Togo in the 70's in proper working order

What was the speed with it hurting?

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

metalmulisha5006

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2015, 12:37:31 PM »
68.4 gps
  • Boat #1: 77 python bubbledeck
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2015, 01:03:05 PM »
68.4 gps
Yes.

In all honesty, I've you get the time dialed in you will have a much better idea of what to concentrate on next. Right now you would be throwing the poop at the toilet paper.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
  • Like
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2015, 01:09:10 PM »
I agree, the set up/ RPM seems wrong. The first thing I'd do is check the tach. MSD and others make a digital tach checker. We check them for free here, you can't tune unless you know the truth. Most of the boat tachs we see are off from 200 to as much as 500 RPM at around 5000 RPM, mostly they read high, just like most non-GPS speedos. About 3 or 4 times a year we have guys come in with similar readings and when we check the tach, we find that they are set to the 6 cylinder position! I can understand that because most car guys with big blocks can't believe that their engine only turns 4200 RPM wide open.
In your case, I don't believe that is a correct RPM reading unless your pump is worn out or assembled incorrectly. With your engine, I would expect more along the lines of 4600.
I also believe that a loader will slow your boat by a few MPH too. We have plenty of 70 and 80 MPH boats out there without loaders. If the boat doesn't unload going down the lake, it will probably slow it. The river guys use them to keep loaded in the rough water of the river(Parker/Havasu) After doing the jetting/ timing thing, we take top and bottom pump pressures to see if the shoe/loader setup is correct. For most loaders, we end up going back to a rock grate to see where we are, checking the speed and pressures as we change stuff. Also, just because an impeller is stamped "A" doesn't mean it still is, it may have been modified and not correctly, or where it should be, and not restamped.
Some of the things that affect RPM in the pump are in no particular order: brand of impeller(legends and Aggressors are "tight"), shouldered or old type wear ring, wide or narrow wear ring, side and end wear ring clearances, age of impeller (beat up / eroded leading and trailing edges, brand of bowl, stuffer or not, clearance from impeller to bowl, nozzle size, age/wear in bowl, blueprinted bowl and/or impeller, loader, shoe, shape of hull in front of suction, angle of suction installation, ride plate angle, droop and what brand/type and length, brand of suction housing, type and fitment of clean out cover(yup, really!), and I'm sure GT will add some more that I haven't thought of!
Back to the engine now. IMHO I would try an RPM Airgap intake or a Dart singleplane intake with an 850 to a HP 970 carb with your setup. Try to borrow one before you buy. Most of our big valved, unshrouded, bowl ported, factory oval port headed, solid roller cammed, 496s run fastest with one of those intakes. They usually run about 75-80 at our altitude and 115 degree heat. Check the tach and bowl pressures, top and bottom before spending any cash. TIMINATOR
Paragraphs.  Whew.

I'm thinking he should be spinning close to 5,600 rpm.

I think the TR is the way to go.

I also think a loader cannot hurt as long is set up correctly.

115 is pretty cold.

He said bronze B.

GT

  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
  • Like
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

metalmulisha5006

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2015, 01:18:53 PM »
So today I've redone my throttle linkage  full throttle now...re jetted the carbs and changed the squirters  and brought the timing up to 38 degrees ...
  • Boat #1: 77 python bubbledeck
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2015, 01:23:17 PM »
Interesting, you have a Dominator bowl and Place HPH on a Berkeley suction housing.  I'm really curious to see what is inside that pump.

Could you take some pictures of the jet intake and surrounding fiberglass, from different angles, under the boat?  Do you know the history of the impeller?  Pictures of the impeller please.

Cheers,

Joe
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

metalmulisha5006

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 990's vs 781
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2015, 01:47:57 PM »
It's a JC split bowl conversion done by jet boat performance ... Impeller is made by tom at JBP ...suction housing is all stock ..I don't have any pics of the impeller I'll take some soon as I get home
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