SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: MorePower on December 22, 2013, 11:45:08 AM
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So now that I'm home, it's time to rebuild and get some machine work done to my 455. Any body have any recommendations for a shop in Orange County or near? I appreciate the help guys. Got the motor, crank and new heads in the shop.
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George at Clay Smith Cams has been highly recommended for building an Olds.
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Thanks Dave! Any contact info?
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http://www.claysmithcams.com/contact-us/ (http://www.claysmithcams.com/contact-us/)
Clay Smith Engineering, Inc.
5870 Dale Street
Buena Park, CA 90621.
Telephone: Tech Line: 714-523-0530
Order Desk: 800-454-7999
email: nicwoods6@claysmithcams.com
Fax: 714-522-3315
HOURS: 8 AM TO 6 PM (PACIFIC STANDARD TIME)
MONDAY - THURSDAY
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Ya george at clay smith is the man. He did all the machinng and porting on my 455 when the original owner built it and now im getting the macchine work done there for my rebuild. Super cool people over there.
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That's Drew.right ? Does that mean your gonna be hitting some of the get togethers this year ?
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Hey Danny! You bet! Motor is out, will be completely disassembled this weekend. Went with roller rockers, restricted mondello rods, going with a new cam, lifters, bearings, possibly new heads, HV oil pump, new rings, that all depends how the crank looks.
After that last trip, the motor starved the top end. For an olds I know that sounds crazy, but we found over half the lifters were frozen... And the cam looks like it has 400,000 hours on it. And to top it off, when the PO put the intake manifold back on, he used silicone and didn't use enough to actually seal. Good times!
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I just your pics in the SoCal Live thread. Still going with the Olds?
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Crank and block are salvageable. Need a new connecting rod and set of pistons. I'm not sure what I'm gonna do. Also the PO did oil restrictors and one ended up in pieces in the pan...
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All depends what the machine shop says, bit he can't even take the parts for 3 weeks
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Hey Danny! You bet! Motor is out, will be completely disassembled this weekend. Went with roller rockers, restricted mondello rods, going with a new cam, lifters, bearings, possibly new heads, HV oil pump, new rings, that all depends how the crank looks.
After that last trip, the motor starved the top end. For an olds I know that sounds crazy, but we found over half the lifters were frozen... And the cam looks like it has 400,000 hours on it. And to top it off, when the PO put the intake manifold back on, he used silicone and didn't use enough to actually seal. Good times!
Leave the HV oil pump at the store (IMHO).
I am thinking this thing simply had a cam go flat.... Can't get my head wrapped around the top end starving...
Got any post puke pics? :)
GT
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Well issue #1 was the PO sealed everything up with a half ass silicone job, reminded me of a horrible boob job.
#2 no water pressure control. I will take a picture of the oil pan and the amount of metal in it.
The next pictures are self explanatory....
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Bad boob job and no water control........here we go.
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Well issue #1 was the PO sealed everything up with a half ass silicone job, reminded me of a horrible boob job.
#2 no water pressure control. I will take a picture of the oil pan and the amount of metal in it.
The next pictures are self explanatory....
Have a picture of the cam? :sly:
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Bad boob job and no water control........here we go.
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She sounds old... LOL
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This is the only pic I have of the cam. Scrapped it that day
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You need to dig REAL deep into that one when you go to put it together.
I would not be satisfied unless I found several things physically wrong...
GT
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You need to dig REAL deep into that one when you go to put it together.
I would not be satisfied unless I found several things physically wrong...
GT
The block specifically?
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The block specifically?
The block, the crank, the front cover, virtually everything. Something doesn't feel quite right.
GT
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Block and crank are in getting machined and checked, when I comes to what I think happened, PO didn't seal it up correctly and had no water pressure control... Water got in oil and done.
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Ordered up speed pro L2323F060 forged pistons, and full Felpro seals/gaskets. Waiting on the info from the shop to decide cam. Got 1.6 comp roller rockers, with mindello restricted rods. Picked up some Ka heads to replace the J heads. Scatter brained right now on what I should be getting done while I wait lol
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Unsolicited cam recommendation: Mondello 22-25 or Lunati 60804. They're similar cams, and I've run both with those pistons using either C, K or E heads on 91 octane. This will let the motor run to about 4800 rpm with an AA impeller, which is about as fast as you want it to spin for any extended period of time without more drastic oil system mods. Might also want to consider adding the "relief" slots on the mating faces of the rods, like old man Mondello used to recommend.
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Thanks man! Heard good things about the lunati voodoo. Really looking for a cam with similar specs but with a 112 LSA
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Just bought the comp XE274 kit.
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In all seriousness, replace those POS I-beam factory rods with H-Beams. The Eagle 6.735" bushed rod is affordable and very reliable. Also, are you stabilizing the lower end with a halo or a girdle? As big as the journals are, bearing speed, and amount of torque, I would at a minimum stud the lower end and put a 4 or 5 cap halo on it. Tying in all the mains together is key so if any contortion were to try to occur, it's distributed across all the mains. Dick Miller makes a great 5 cap halo kit. Olds Performance Products has a good alternative to the pound in oil restrictors, drilled/threaded plugs w/ tap kit.
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I have read every Olds hop up article I could find for years and RARELY does any pro recommend replacing the OEM rods. On a motor that will never see 5000 rpm? A set of rods will add 20% to the cost of his build. Why would you advise this exactly?
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No reason to replace factory rods on a warmed up lake boat motor, or add girdles!
Factory rods are easily good for 500 or so HP.
If the lower end machining has been done correctly, and all oiling mods addressed, I have seen many many successful builds without going to aftermarket rods or additional lower end accesories
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I have read every Olds hop up article I could find for years and RARELY does any pro recommend replacing the OEM rods. On a motor that will never see 5000 rpm? A set of rods will add 20% to the cost of his build. Why would you advise this exactly?
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Who were the builders in those articles, someone who decided to build an Olds and got lucky? Given that he's got many hours on that engine, at a mere minimum, he needs to have them reconditioned, which whill cost atleast half of what new H beams cost. Good and reliable builders, such as Joe Mondello (God rest his soul), Dick & Andy Miller, and Bill Travato, and pretty much anyone who has built stout, reliable BBO's will tell you the factory rods have are a weak link and have a definitive life span in a car-in a boat it's shorter because of the higher RPM's. I've built many SBO's & BBO's and, have had a rod failure bite me in the ass once 'cause I got cheap. If you have a rod failure at high RPM's, and let's say it is under 5K, say your 4800, the potential for it or pieces to exit that assembly are high. I wouldn't want that to happen in a boat because I don't think they make a bilge plug that big nor a pump that good.
And by the way, OEM rods, haven't been OEM since 1976 when the last BBO came off the line. So how much fatigue do you think the rods he has currently have given the failure he just experienced?
Also, look at the picture of what was left of what appears to be a rod bearing----do you really think that rod is any good to use anymore?
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You are doing a lot of ass u meing ! I don't see how you got the picture that he is re using those exact rods! I don't even think Stevie wonder would venture to re used them!
But you obviously think that was what his plans were!
And Andy miller...let's not get started on that subject!
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Hmmm . . . that's interesting chrisx2
Cuz when I was reading a while back, PHR asked Mondello to put together a motor that would live at high RPM (for an Olds). Now I would assume that Mondello would (a) want to advertise his products as much as possible, (b) not advertise a motor in a national publication that won't do what it claims for an extended period of time.
And so they built an engine according to Mondello's recipe that did ran well over 5000 rpm. Still only made 450 hp (now I know why boat is so slow, 'bout made me cry :-\ ).
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0302phr_oldsmobile_455ci_engine_build/ (http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0302phr_oldsmobile_455ci_engine_build/)
Search around SCJB for the article that TiMMINATOR wrote. It is the definitive word on how to build a marine 455. :thumbup:
@MorePower ~ you are on the right track. Great choice for pistons and rockers. Understand that from a performance standpoint, J heads are the worst, but most everything else is not great. I think the ones that came on the hi perf W2 cars were called "C" series. THEY are better but the restoration guys pay ridiculous amounts of money for them. I have also talked to people who were in on the development of the Edelbrock 455 heads, and they were very unhappy with the end product, but the original design just wasn't a good enough starting point. So don't get too wrapped up in what heads you have. I will also say that Olds Perf Products offer very reasonable packages that you could have your own machinist set up for marine use. TIMM's article will tell you exactly what to tell the builder.
And from one Olds owner to another, the pain never goes away, even after the motor does LOL
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Hmmm . . . that's interesting chrisx2
Cuz when I was reading a while back, PHR asked Mondello to put together a motor that would live at high RPM (for an Olds). Now I would assume that Mondello would (a) want to advertise his products as much as possible, (b) not advertise a motor in a national publication that won't do what it claims for an extended period of time.
And so they built an engine according to Mondello's recipe that did ran well over 5000 rpm. Still only made 450 hp (now I know why boat is so slow, 'bout made me cry :-\ ).
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0302phr_oldsmobile_455ci_engine_build/ (http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0302phr_oldsmobile_455ci_engine_build/)
Search around SCJB for the article that TiMMINATOR wrote. It is the definitive word on how to build a marine 455. :thumbup:
@MorePower ~ you are on the right track. Great choice for pistons and rockers. Understand that from a performance standpoint, J heads are the worst, but most everything else is not great. I think the ones that came on the hi perf W2 cars were called "C" series. THEY are better but the restoration guys pay ridiculous amounts of money for them. I have also talked to people who were in on the development of the Edelbrock 455 heads, and they were very unhappy with the end product, but the original design just wasn't a good enough starting point. So don't get too wrapped up in what heads you have. I will also say that Olds Perf Products offer very reasonable packages that you could have your own machinist set up for marine use. TIMM's article will tell you exactly what to tell the builder.
And from one Olds owner to another, the pain never goes away, even after the motor does LOL
Thanks man! And I did go with Ka heads, not in need of anything crazy. I owe a huge thanks to Phil, (RushinElminator17) he has helped me so much and guided my every choice. Very knowledgable guy. At the end of this I will have a list of Thank Yous but it's far from over.
Well just picked these up from powdercoat. Stay tuned for the next phase.
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Alright, let's not make this a pissing match about all this. I'm stating from my experiencethat the OE rods are not as strong and a a weak link. In regards to GlassCutter's response with the PHR article, I've read it also. Gotta remember one thing, those types of magazines are not by any stretch of the imagination gospel or close to it. Most articles are sponsored, in other words, someone got paid, so there is a percentage of bias that must be suspected. A very good series of articles written by Joe Mondello, not by a magazine, http://www.oldsmobility.com/oldsmo/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=385 (http://www.oldsmobility.com/oldsmo/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=385)
Also, this is a forum where we all try to help one another out. I have never ever gone with just one builders recomendations, I've contrasted and compared build & engineering notes by multiple Oldsmobile builders. Mondellos book costs $30.00 and is a wonderful resource, as well as Dick Miller's book, and a great one is Bill Travato of BTR Performance, his is about the same cost. These investments are priceless when it comes to how many years these builders have been doing their magic.
Gentlemen, white flag, we're all here to have a good time and not put shots across each others bows. Are we cool on this?
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In all seriousness, replace those POS I-beam factory rods with H-Beams.
What in the hell are you talking about?
The Eagle 6.735" bushed rod is affordable and very reliable.
No need to spend more money on a budget build.
Also, are you stabilizing the lower end with a halo or a girdle? As big as the journals are, bearing speed, and amount of torque, I would at a minimum stud the lower end and put a 4 or 5 cap halo on it.
Really no need for this on a 375 HP Olds... JMHO
Tying in all the mains together is key so if any contortion were to try to occur, it's distributed across all the mains. Dick Miller makes a great 5 cap halo kit. Olds Performance Products has a good alternative to the pound in oil restrictors, drilled/threaded plugs w/ tap kit.
There are literally hundreds of extremely reliable Oldsmobile's out there that simply don't require how crazy you want this thing to be.
Again, just my humble opinion.
GT
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@ chrisx2 :thumbup: I like the even keeled responses you have given here, and I wasn't trying to be hostile in any way towards you. Like you say, this is a place that people should be able to come to for help and support. Like GT, I was just trying to keep a guy from spending his money needlessly. Olds motors, especially in boats, are a bit specialized and so not everyone knows what it takes to make them stay together. I suppose I have seen the same thing happen with Fords and Chebby too. Everyone can build power but sometimes you find out the $$$ way that the stock rods were not up to the new level of HP. But no one on a budget build will ever see 550+ HP in an Olds, so I don't think MorePower here needs to worry about rods or girdles. Hell a girdle is just one more thing he would have to anodize from the looks of things LOL.
And if we can get a guy from Canada to bring his boat out west for a little fun run, I would think the midwest of the good ole US of A would be most welcome too. :beer: :beer: :beer:
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Also chrisx2 I did order up the tap in restrictors from oldsperformance. Thank you guys all for your help! GT has been a big help also. I appreciate every word of advice from everyone I've spoken too in regards to this motor. Keeping it budget without sacrificing reliability has been my main point to hit on this... I feel with my mild cam choice and mild compression, the stock rods will be fine. Original goal for this build is reliability with a few added ponies.
Thank you guys for all your input. And for what I paid for the powdercoat, I couldn't turn it down!!!
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If they really wanted to help, they would have told you to get a Chevy. ;D
Did you end up going to Clay Smith?
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If they really wanted to help, they would have told you to get a Hemi. ;D
Did you end up going to Clay Smith?
I so fixed that for you... 8)
GT
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If they really wanted to help, they would have told you to get a Chevy. ;D
Did you end up going to Clay Smith?
Lol. Chevy Chevy Chevy.... The olds is a family legacy lol... Now it's time to start shopping for a new truck!
And I went to R&D machine in Costa Mesa
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Listen to GT. HEMI is the best truck out there right now. Please do NOT buy a GM truck if you are looking for a trouble free ride for a long tine.
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You are doing a lot of ass u meing ! I don't see how you got the picture that he is re using those exact rods! I don't even think Stevie wonder would venture to re used them!
But you obviously think that was what his plans were!
And Andy miller...let's not get started on that subject!
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As for Andy Miller. I know from multiple other forums that some people don't like the guy. I will state that I have never been steered wrong or done wrong by him YET. Of course, I only purchase parts, he does not do any of my mill work or assembly or design. That is where I think most people don't like him. Just me though. The parts I've purchased, A+ top notch. No complaints.
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As for Andy Miller. I know from multiple other forums that some people don't like the guy. I will state that I have never been steered wrong or done wrong by him YET. Of course, I only purchase parts, he does not do any of my mill work or assembly or design. That is where I think most people don't like him. Just me though. The parts I've purchased, A+ top notch. No complaints.
I only purchase extremely limited parts from him, ie, threaded restrictors and minor things like that.
His advise is always steered toward what will get him the biggest chunk of cash in his pocket. Every time I spoke with him, a simple question is snowballed into an hour long conversation. And short of hanging up the phone, nothing stops him.
He quickly looses sight of a simple piston to wall clearance question, and immediately starts pitching his parts, that if you don't buy, your engine will blow up before you even put gasoline to it...
From your previous responses, seems like you spent a lot of time listening to his BS and quickly absorbed it like a sponge.
One thing you should remember: not every single olds build requires a ridiculous budget to properly get a guys boat going down the lake reliably! If you loose sight of what the target intended use of the engine is, you can easily be persuaded into buying parts you don't "need", which takes away from finishing a project!
...seen this scenario tons of times
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Listen to GT. HEMI is the best truck out there right now. Please do NOT buy a GM truck if you are looking for a trouble free ride for a long tine.
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Going diesel... So assuming your vote is the 5.9 cummins? What's your input on the 6.6 duramax?
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If they really wanted to help, they would have told you to get a Chevy. ;D
Did you end up going to Clay Smith?
I did try!!!! Yea I know I should of tried harder. :-)
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Drew, I own a 2004 2500 duramax with the 6.6...I love it! Crazy power with very little mods!
Make sure the injectors have been done prior they are a common problem, and quit pricy. Other than that, they are great!
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I take Andy's advice with a grain of salt. He does go off on you'll blow up if you don't... The last conversation I had with him, he wanted me to run (have braized into my oil pan) cooler pipes with which to run my cooler water from the oil cooler assembly to better assure a cooler temp. :screwy: Much of my advice has come from many of the BBO's & SBO's I've built and had both successes and failures with, also a few friends. Before moving to Illinois from Va, I ran a '76 cutlass with an 1100HP nitrous fed 468 turning in mid 9's. Bill Travato and Joe Mondello have given me a ton of advice from which I have cured many failures or prevented them. I realize not everything is applicable to many of the milder mills out there, I just have the shittiest luck in the world. And with me, I am a pessimist. I plan for the worst and hope for the best, so if the worst happens, I'm prepared, and if the best occurs, hey, a benefit. I don't mean to push anyone into anything they don't want to do.
I teach for Chrysler Technical, so as far as picking a good truck, the Rams are nice and reliable, but remember, there is no such thing as perfection, every manufacturer has hiccups and inherent failures.
Here are some pics of my mill going in my Glastron CV21.
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Well well well, I'm betting that is the trickest Olds motor that anyone on here has ever posted up :thumbup:
So you have the cred, but why oh why would you put so much effort and money and more money into anything OLds, but especially what everyone thinks of as Grandma's car ? Please don't tell me it was a 4 door :mad:
You know you could have built a 76 Pontiac T/A and run 9's with half the money and a quarter of the effort right?
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Nah! She was a 2 door, all steel, 10pt roll cage, 400hp shot of N2O, back halved and big tired w/ wheelies. My way in was 3980lbs. She was about 5 colors of primer and Emeron blue.....found out that I ain't that good at body work so I stuck to what I am good at.....drivetrains. I love Olds just because of the fact that everyone thinks ".....it's fathers' Oldsmobile". Funnier 'en hell when the poor bastards in Chevys, Putz-stangs, Mopars were left on the line when I dropped the trans brake and two step and 200hp of nitrous carried the front wheels out and 80ms later another 200 of N2O kicked in and wouldn't let me set the fronts down till after the 60" mark. Just love the torque monster Olds-mo-bubbles. This new engine has 76cc chamber heads, roller hydraulic Lunati voodoo cam, Harland Sharp rockers, gear drive, Diamond pistons......etc, etc, etc.
It's just fun as hell to stay out of the mainstream and still kick ass and take names. >:D
This Glastron's got a JE pump, SS loader, 17-4HP shaft, Billet inducer, "A" SS impellar, Hydraulic place diverter, Hot foo pedal, seating for five + a 36 qt cooler, + approx.535HP/585lbs.tq.
Fun fun fun I just need a set of thru transom headers for it.........oh the fun
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Got the heads, block , crank and pistons/rods back today from the machine shop. Hopefully getting to work tomorrow!
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Olds crew reppin! Haha
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Finally got my motor back last week after the machine shop gave me the block back with cam bearings that weren't right... So took it over to clay smith and had them press in new cam bearings...
I picked up a set of Bassett twisties and a better oil pan. I've accumulated new gauges, water control valve for the headers and a few other odd parts.
As for now, here is my progress, I am waiting on some parts from powdercoat then the rest will be done.
I owe a huge thanks to Phil (RushinEliminator17) he has been a huge help in the build.
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Sideways pictures as always...
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At what degree advanced was the cam installed?
Just curious.
Looks great so far, nothin' like new chit... :sly:
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Lookin good drew! Pull an all night and meet me at the lake tommorow! Haha
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Zero degree, and yes I love new chit!
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Some more additions, changed to a flex plate instead of the flywheel, so my uncle put this spacer together on the old Bridgeport and lathe, motor should be in the boat this weekend
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Picked up my headers from A1 exhaust in Santa Ana, couldn't be more pleased with the coating. Motor is going in the boat tomorrow so will have more pictures then
Sent with my Fingers
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Motor is finally in! Got the custom dipstick mounted, headers on, driveline connected, and diverter nozzle installed (still need to finish that) Now the tedious work begins....
Sent with my Fingers
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A little more...
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Looks good buddy!
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You have actually managed to do the impossible... Made a purdy Olds... ;)
Hit up the speed shop for a deep groove alternator pulley, they're only like 20 bucks and can save you some grief.
That thing is drop dead sexy...
GT
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Thanks guys! And GT, it'll definitely get on that!
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Dude thumbs up that looks tight love the Hadders were did you get them done at and how much did it cost you
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Got the headers coated at A1 exhaust in Santa Ana. Was $240
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Right on I'll look them up appreciate the info
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Well a lot has happened since I last posted. The motor had to come out at 8pm Saturday night due to a flywheel spacer miscalculation lol, had it fixed and back in by 11pm. Sunday was spent tying up the wiring.
Monday we attempted to break the motor in and a few of my AN fitting had holes, and was only getting 20lbs of oil pressure, shut it down and started researching, well forgot the left rear oil galley plug.... Pulled the motor again yesterday got the plug in and bam, 50lbs...
Will have some more to post today or tomorrow once I get the motor breaking in. Definitely feels good to be on the home stretch...
Sent with my Fingers
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Well a lot has happened since I last posted. The motor had to come out at 8pm Saturday night due to a flywheel spacer miscalculation lol, had it fixed and back in by 11pm. Sunday was spent tying up the wiring.
Monday we attempted to break the motor in and a few of my AN fitting had holes, and was only getting 20lbs of oil pressure, shut it down and started researching, well forgot the left rear oil galley plug.... Pulled the motor again yesterday got the plug in and bam, 50lbs...
Will have some more to post today or tomorrow once I get the motor breaking in. Definitely feels good to be on the home stretch...
Sent with my Fingers
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Also added some brass
Sent with my Fingers
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Motor pulled on Saturday
And motor pulled on Tuesday
Sent with my Fingers
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Got the boat running, and while setting the water to the headers; I got too much and got water in the oil... After 2 oil changes I got it clean. Decided to run the headers dry so got rid of the water lines. Will have some videos soon