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GlassCutter

  • Karma: +31/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2014, 01:34:58 pm »
I have read every Olds hop up article I could find for years and RARELY does any pro recommend replacing the OEM rods.  On a motor that will never see 5000 rpm?  A set of rods will add 20% to the cost of his build.  Why would you advise this exactly?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SoCalJetBoats mobile app

  • Boat #1: 1973  Wriedt Montara 23
  • Boat #2: 1978 Spectra 20 460/Berkley
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Also, I will kiss bare male ass in the middle of the Vegas Strip  . . .  I will post pics if I need to.  --  IRRebel 2013

"Go ahead Rivertard does it.  Take a video though."

"If you did it in a dodge it would have shifted perfectly ran a thousand miles per hour and got optimum fuel mileage!"  Nordie  2012

RushinEliminator17

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2014, 02:46:37 pm »
No reason to replace factory rods on a warmed up lake boat motor, or add girdles!
Factory rods are easily good for 500 or so HP.

If the lower end machining has been done correctly, and all oiling mods addressed, I have seen many many successful builds without going to aftermarket rods or additional lower end accesories


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chrisx2

  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2014, 03:05:34 pm »
I have read every Olds hop up article I could find for years and RARELY does any pro recommend replacing the OEM rods.  On a motor that will never see 5000 rpm?  A set of rods will add 20% to the cost of his build.  Why would you advise this exactly?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SoCalJetBoats mobile app

Who were the builders in those articles, someone who decided to build an Olds and got lucky?  Given that he's got many hours on that engine, at a mere minimum, he needs to have them reconditioned, which whill cost atleast half of what new H beams cost.  Good and reliable builders, such as Joe Mondello (God rest his soul), Dick & Andy Miller, and Bill Travato, and pretty much anyone who has built stout, reliable BBO's will tell you the factory rods have are a weak link and have a definitive life span in a car-in a boat it's shorter because of the higher RPM's.  I've built many SBO's & BBO's and, have had a rod failure bite me in the ass once 'cause I got cheap.  If you have a rod failure at high RPM's, and let's say it is under 5K, say your 4800, the potential for it or pieces to exit that assembly are high.  I wouldn't want that to happen in a boat because I don't think they make a bilge plug that big nor a pump that good.

And by the way, OEM rods, haven't been OEM since 1976 when the last BBO came off the line.  So how much fatigue do you think the rods he has currently have given the failure he just experienced?

Also, look at the picture of what was left of what appears to be a rod bearing----do you really think that rod is any good to use anymore?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 03:11:03 pm by chrisx2 »
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RushinEliminator17

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2014, 03:24:25 pm »
You are doing a lot of ass u meing ! I don't see how you got the picture that he is re using those exact rods! I don't even think Stevie wonder would venture to re used them!
But you obviously think that was what his plans were!

And Andy miller...let's not get started on that subject!


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GlassCutter

  • Karma: +31/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2014, 05:43:13 pm »


Hmmm . . .  that's interesting chrisx2

Cuz when I was reading a while back, PHR asked Mondello to put together a motor that would live at high RPM (for an Olds).   Now I would assume that Mondello would (a) want to advertise his products as much as possible, (b) not advertise a motor in a national publication that won't do what it claims for an extended period of time.
And so they built an engine according to Mondello's recipe that did ran well over 5000 rpm.   Still only made 450 hp (now I know why boat is so slow,  'bout made me cry   :-\  ).

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0302phr_oldsmobile_455ci_engine_build/

Search around SCJB for the article that TiMMINATOR wrote.  It is the definitive word on how to build a marine 455.  :thumbup:

@MorePower ~  you are on the right track.  Great choice for pistons and rockers.  Understand that from a performance standpoint, J heads are the worst, but most everything else is not great.  I think the ones that came on the hi perf W2 cars were called "C" series.  THEY are better but the restoration guys pay ridiculous amounts of money for them.  I have also talked to people who were in on the development of the Edelbrock 455 heads, and they were very unhappy with the end product, but the original design just wasn't a good enough starting point.  So don't get too wrapped up in what heads you have.   I will also say that Olds Perf Products offer very reasonable packages that you could have your own machinist set up for marine use.  TIMM's article will tell you exactly what to tell the builder.   
And from one Olds owner to another, the pain never goes away, even after the motor does LOL
  • Boat #1: 1973  Wriedt Montara 23
  • Boat #2: 1978 Spectra 20 460/Berkley
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Also, I will kiss bare male ass in the middle of the Vegas Strip  . . .  I will post pics if I need to.  --  IRRebel 2013

"Go ahead Rivertard does it.  Take a video though."

"If you did it in a dodge it would have shifted perfectly ran a thousand miles per hour and got optimum fuel mileage!"  Nordie  2012

MorePower

  • Karma: +20/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2014, 06:34:41 pm »

Hmmm . . .  that's interesting chrisx2

Cuz when I was reading a while back, PHR asked Mondello to put together a motor that would live at high RPM (for an Olds).   Now I would assume that Mondello would (a) want to advertise his products as much as possible, (b) not advertise a motor in a national publication that won't do what it claims for an extended period of time.
And so they built an engine according to Mondello's recipe that did ran well over 5000 rpm.   Still only made 450 hp (now I know why boat is so slow,  'bout made me cry   :-\  ).

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0302phr_oldsmobile_455ci_engine_build/

Search around SCJB for the article that TiMMINATOR wrote.  It is the definitive word on how to build a marine 455.  :thumbup:

@MorePower ~  you are on the right track.  Great choice for pistons and rockers.  Understand that from a performance standpoint, J heads are the worst, but most everything else is not great.  I think the ones that came on the hi perf W2 cars were called "C" series.  THEY are better but the restoration guys pay ridiculous amounts of money for them.  I have also talked to people who were in on the development of the Edelbrock 455 heads, and they were very unhappy with the end product, but the original design just wasn't a good enough starting point.  So don't get too wrapped up in what heads you have.   I will also say that Olds Perf Products offer very reasonable packages that you could have your own machinist set up for marine use.  TIMM's article will tell you exactly what to tell the builder.   
And from one Olds owner to another, the pain never goes away, even after the motor does LOL



Thanks man! And I did go with Ka heads, not in need of anything crazy. I owe a huge thanks to Phil, (RushinElminator17) he has helped me so much and guided my every choice. Very knowledgable guy. At the end of this I will have a list of Thank Yous but it's far from over.
Well just picked these up from powdercoat. Stay tuned for the next phase.
  • Boat #1: 1974 18ft Southwind
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chrisx2

  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2014, 06:40:45 pm »
Alright, let's not make this a pissing match about all this.  I'm stating from my experiencethat the OE rods are not as strong and a a weak link.  In regards to GlassCutter's response with the PHR article, I've read it also.  Gotta remember one thing, those types of magazines are not by any stretch of the imagination gospel or close to it.  Most articles are sponsored, in other words, someone got paid, so there is a percentage of bias that must be suspected.  A very good series of articles written by Joe Mondello, not by a magazine,            http://www.oldsmobility.com/oldsmo/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=385   
Also, this is a forum where we all try to help one another out.  I have never ever gone with just one builders recomendations, I've contrasted and compared build & engineering notes by multiple Oldsmobile builders.  Mondellos book costs $30.00 and is a wonderful resource, as well as Dick Miller's book, and a great one is Bill Travato of BTR Performance, his is about the same cost.  These investments are priceless when it comes to how many years these builders have been doing their magic.

Gentlemen, white flag, we're all here to have a good time and not put shots across each others bows.  Are we cool on this?
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2014, 08:06:32 pm »
In all seriousness, replace those POS I-beam factory rods with H-Beams.

What in the hell are you talking about?

 
The Eagle 6.735" bushed rod is affordable and very reliable.

No need to spend more money on a budget build.

  Also, are you stabilizing the lower end with a halo or a girdle?  As big as the journals are, bearing speed, and amount of torque, I would at a minimum stud the lower end and put a 4 or 5 cap halo on it.

Really no need for this on a 375 HP Olds... JMHO

Tying in all the mains together is key so if any contortion were to try to occur, it's distributed across all the mains.  Dick Miller makes a great 5 cap halo kit.  Olds Performance Products has a good alternative to the pound in oil restrictors, drilled/threaded plugs w/ tap kit.

There are literally hundreds of extremely reliable Oldsmobile's out there that simply don't require how crazy you want this thing to be.

Again, just my humble opinion.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

GlassCutter

  • Karma: +31/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2014, 08:22:33 pm »
@ chrisx2   :thumbup:            I like the even keeled responses you have given here, and I wasn't trying to be hostile in any way towards you.  Like you say, this is a place that people should be able to come to for help and support.  Like GT, I was  just trying to keep a guy from spending his money needlessly.  Olds motors, especially in boats, are a bit specialized and so not everyone knows what it takes to make them stay together.  I suppose I have seen the same thing happen with Fords and Chebby too.  Everyone can build power but sometimes you find out the $$$ way that the stock rods were not up to the new level of HP.  But no one on a budget build will ever see 550+ HP in an Olds, so I don't think MorePower here needs to worry about rods or girdles.  Hell a girdle is just one more thing he would have to anodize from the looks of things LOL.

And if we can get a guy from Canada to bring his boat out west for a little fun run, I would think the midwest of the good ole US of A would be most welcome too.   :beer: :beer: :beer:
  • Boat #1: 1973  Wriedt Montara 23
  • Boat #2: 1978 Spectra 20 460/Berkley
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Also, I will kiss bare male ass in the middle of the Vegas Strip  . . .  I will post pics if I need to.  --  IRRebel 2013

"Go ahead Rivertard does it.  Take a video though."

"If you did it in a dodge it would have shifted perfectly ran a thousand miles per hour and got optimum fuel mileage!"  Nordie  2012

MorePower

  • Karma: +20/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2014, 08:34:05 pm »
Also chrisx2 I did order up the tap in restrictors from oldsperformance. Thank you guys all for your help! GT has been a big help also. I appreciate every word of advice from everyone I've spoken too in regards to this motor. Keeping it budget without sacrificing reliability has been my main point to hit on this... I feel with my mild cam choice and mild compression, the stock rods will be fine. Original goal for this build is reliability with a few added ponies.

Thank you guys for all your input. And for what I paid for the powdercoat, I couldn't turn it down!!!
  • Boat #1: 1974 18ft Southwind
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TrollerDave

  • Karma: +32/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2014, 10:52:25 pm »
If they really wanted to help, they would have told you to get a Chevy.  ;D

Did you end up going to Clay Smith?
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2014, 11:23:34 pm »
If they really wanted to help, they would have told you to get a Hemi;D

Did you end up going to Clay Smith?

I so fixed that for you...  8)

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

MorePower

  • Karma: +20/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2014, 05:38:56 am »
If they really wanted to help, they would have told you to get a Chevy.  ;D

Did you end up going to Clay Smith?

Lol. Chevy Chevy Chevy.... The olds is a family legacy lol... Now it's time to start shopping for a new truck!
And I went to R&D machine in Costa Mesa
  • Boat #1: 1974 18ft Southwind
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GlassCutter

  • Karma: +31/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2014, 08:32:58 am »
Listen to GT.  HEMI is the best truck out there right now.  Please do NOT buy a GM truck if you are looking for a trouble free ride for a long tine.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SoCalJetBoats mobile app

  • Boat #1: 1973  Wriedt Montara 23
  • Boat #2: 1978 Spectra 20 460/Berkley
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Also, I will kiss bare male ass in the middle of the Vegas Strip  . . .  I will post pics if I need to.  --  IRRebel 2013

"Go ahead Rivertard does it.  Take a video though."

"If you did it in a dodge it would have shifted perfectly ran a thousand miles per hour and got optimum fuel mileage!"  Nordie  2012

chrisx2

  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2014, 10:08:38 am »
You are doing a lot of ass u meing ! I don't see how you got the picture that he is re using those exact rods! I don't even think Stevie wonder would venture to re used them!
But you obviously think that was what his plans were!

And Andy miller...let's not get started on that subject!


Sent from my iPhone using SoCalJetBoats

As for Andy Miller.  I know from multiple other forums that some people don't like the guy.  I will state that I have never been steered wrong or done wrong by him   YET.  Of course, I only purchase parts, he does not do any of my mill work or assembly or design.  That is where I think most people don't like him.  Just me though.  The parts I've purchased, A+ top notch.  No complaints.
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RushinEliminator17

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2014, 11:10:27 am »

As for Andy Miller.  I know from multiple other forums that some people don't like the guy.  I will state that I have never been steered wrong or done wrong by him   YET.  Of course, I only purchase parts, he does not do any of my mill work or assembly or design.  That is where I think most people don't like him.  Just me though.  The parts I've purchased, A+ top notch.  No complaints.


I only purchase extremely limited parts from him, ie, threaded restrictors and minor things like that.
His advise is always steered toward what will get him the biggest chunk of cash in his pocket. Every time I spoke with him, a simple question is snowballed into an hour long conversation. And short of hanging up the phone, nothing stops him.
He quickly looses sight of a simple piston to wall clearance question, and immediately starts pitching his parts, that if you don't buy, your engine will blow up before you even put gasoline to it...

From your previous responses, seems like you spent a lot of time listening to his BS and quickly absorbed it like a sponge.

One thing you should remember: not every single olds build requires a ridiculous budget to properly get a guys boat going down the lake reliably! If you loose sight of what the target intended use of the engine is, you can easily be persuaded into buying parts you don't "need", which takes away from finishing a project!

...seen this scenario tons of times

 




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MorePower

  • Karma: +20/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2014, 11:15:23 am »
Listen to GT.  HEMI is the best truck out there right now.  Please do NOT buy a GM truck if you are looking for a trouble free ride for a long tine.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SoCalJetBoats mobile app

Going diesel... So assuming your vote is the 5.9 cummins? What's your input on the 6.6 duramax?
  • Boat #1: 1974 18ft Southwind
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RockyCapone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2014, 01:25:17 pm »
If they really wanted to help, they would have told you to get a Chevy.  ;D

Did you end up going to Clay Smith?
I did try!!!! Yea I know I should of tried harder. :-)
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1978 Southwind Formula 1 T body
454 Berkley
IF I GET BORED AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO I'M CALLING GTJETS AND ASKING HIM IF I SHOULD RUN A T-STAT IN MY JETBOAT--THAT SHOULD BURN OFF 8 HOURS EASY
....it would have been cheaper to spend our money on cocaine and hookers

RushinEliminator17

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2014, 01:29:48 pm »
Drew, I own a 2004 2500 duramax with the 6.6...I love it! Crazy power with very little mods!
Make sure the injectors have been done prior they are a common problem, and quit pricy. Other than that, they are great!


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chrisx2

  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2014, 02:29:27 pm »
I take Andy's advice with a grain of salt.  He does go off on you'll blow up if you don't...    The last conversation I had with him, he wanted me to run (have braized into my oil pan) cooler pipes with which to run my cooler water from the oil cooler assembly to better assure a cooler temp. :screwy:  Much of my advice has come from many of the BBO's & SBO's I've built and had both successes and failures with, also a few friends.  Before moving to Illinois from Va, I ran a '76 cutlass with an 1100HP nitrous fed 468 turning in mid 9's.  Bill Travato and Joe Mondello have given me a ton of advice from which I have cured many failures or prevented them.  I realize not everything is applicable to many of the milder mills out there, I just have the shittiest luck in the world. And with me, I am a pessimist.  I plan for the worst and hope for the best, so if the worst happens, I'm prepared, and if the best occurs, hey, a benefit.  I don't mean to push anyone into anything they don't want to do.

I teach for Chrysler Technical, so as far as picking a good truck, the Rams are nice and reliable, but remember, there is no such thing as perfection, every manufacturer has hiccups and inherent failures.

Here are some pics of my mill going in my Glastron CV21.
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GlassCutter

  • Karma: +31/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2014, 05:11:06 pm »
Well well well, I'm betting that is the trickest Olds motor that anyone on here has ever posted up  :thumbup:

So you have the cred, but why oh why would you put so much effort and money and more money into anything OLds, but especially what everyone thinks of as Grandma's car ?   Please don't tell me it was a 4 door   :mad:

You know you could have built a 76 Pontiac T/A and run 9's with half the money and a quarter of the effort right? 
  • Boat #1: 1973  Wriedt Montara 23
  • Boat #2: 1978 Spectra 20 460/Berkley
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Also, I will kiss bare male ass in the middle of the Vegas Strip  . . .  I will post pics if I need to.  --  IRRebel 2013

"Go ahead Rivertard does it.  Take a video though."

"If you did it in a dodge it would have shifted perfectly ran a thousand miles per hour and got optimum fuel mileage!"  Nordie  2012

chrisx2

  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2014, 06:04:04 pm »
Nah! She was a 2 door, all steel, 10pt roll cage, 400hp shot of N2O, back halved and big tired w/ wheelies.  My way in was 3980lbs.  She was about 5 colors of primer and Emeron blue.....found out that I ain't that good at body work so I stuck to what I am good at.....drivetrains.  I love Olds just because of the fact that everyone thinks ".....it's fathers' Oldsmobile".  Funnier 'en hell when the poor bastards in Chevys, Putz-stangs, Mopars were left on the line when I dropped the trans brake and two step and 200hp of nitrous carried the front wheels out and 80ms later another 200 of N2O kicked in and wouldn't let me set the fronts down till after the 60" mark.  Just love the torque monster Olds-mo-bubbles.  This new engine has 76cc chamber heads, roller hydraulic Lunati voodoo cam, Harland Sharp rockers, gear drive, Diamond pistons......etc, etc, etc.   

It's just fun as hell to stay out of the mainstream and still kick ass and take names. >:D

This Glastron's got a JE pump, SS loader, 17-4HP shaft, Billet inducer, "A" SS impellar, Hydraulic place diverter, Hot foo pedal, seating for five + a 36 qt cooler, + approx.535HP/585lbs.tq.

Fun fun fun     I just need a set of thru transom headers for it.........oh the fun
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MorePower

  • Karma: +20/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2014, 09:51:24 pm »
Got the heads, block , crank and pistons/rods back today from the machine shop. Hopefully getting to work tomorrow!
  • Boat #1: 1974 18ft Southwind
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Bunger

  • Karma: +6/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2014, 10:54:36 pm »
Olds crew reppin! Haha
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MorePower

  • Karma: +20/-0
Re: Mild 468 Olds build
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2014, 05:02:38 pm »
Finally got my motor back last week after the machine shop gave me the block back with cam bearings that weren't right... So took it over to clay smith and had them press in new cam bearings...
I picked up a set of Bassett twisties and a better oil pan. I've accumulated new gauges, water control valve for the headers and a few other odd parts.
As for now, here is my progress, I am waiting on some parts from powdercoat then the rest will be done.
I owe a huge thanks to Phil (RushinEliminator17) he has been a huge help in the build.
  • Boat #1: 1974 18ft Southwind
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