SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: 77 - eliminator on April 13, 2016, 05:30:40 PM
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Bought eliminator day cruiser with blown motor, put rebuilt motor in and can't get more than 3800 rpm. Mild 454 dominator jet not sure what impeller or how to check! 850 double pumper! Hei ignition! Any info would be appreciated. Kinda stumped at this point
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Have you checked to see if anything is stuck in the pump
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Have you checked to see if anything is stuck in the pump
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That'll do it. Lol
More information about the tune.
What cam?
What ignition?
WOT timing?
Run rich, lean?
Secondaries opening?
Tach correct?
What exhaust system?
Temperature?
I could go on forever, but you get the idea.
GT
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Crane534 lift 226 duration Hei 8degrees 34 total seams lean just changed from edelbrock 750 to 850 holley has logs runs at 150 degrees and new hardin marine gauges with same results as s old. Kind of thinking pump but know 0 about them. Kind of scratching my head now
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Crane534 lift 226 duration Hei 8degrees 34 total seams lean just changed from edelbrock 750 to 850 holley has logs runs at 150 degrees and new hardin marine gauges with same results as s old. Kind of thinking pump but know 0 about them. Kind of scratching my head now
Might be time to pull the pump apart.
Where are you located?
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Kind of what I was thinking. I live in orange county damn money pit
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First things I would do would be climb under the boat and look in the intake see if you see anything obvious then if you can take the inspection plate off and look in there you might just have a rope are something stuck
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I had a similar issue when I replaced my gauges... it sounded like my motor was running fine but the tach only read 3500rpm. turns out I just forgot to set the back of the tach to "8 cylinders".. damn thing had me stumped for a few trips.
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Thanks for the reply pump is clear and gauge is set to 8 cylinder think I'm in for pump work guess you can't believe what people tell you when you purchase supposed to have been fresh with the new transom
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Fuel filter... just an idea.
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Thanks for the reply pump is clear and gauge is set to 8 cylinder think I'm in for pump work guess you can't believe what people tell you when you purchase supposed to have been fresh with the new transom
FYI, it would be very rare for a messed up pump to hold the engine back.
If there are no rocks in it, the problem is elsewhere.
JMO
GT
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454
Think I found the problem!
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How about empeller size if wrong for my application not sure what it has and don't know how to tell
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How about empeller size if wrong for my application not sure what it has and don't know how to tell
With a meager 300 horsepower you should be able to spin even an AA over 4k.
High Helix maybe not, but you don't have one.
Have any details on the pump build?
He should have been able to provide some insight.
What impeller as an example?
I had a 355 cubic in. mouse spin an AB at 4,200 rpm. Having a hard time believing a big block with 100 more inches couldn't to at least the same with even an A.
JMO
GT
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I'm thinking the carburetion is off or the fuel pump is falling behind.
What makes you say it's lean?
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Fuel filter... just an idea.
^^^ This, as well as fuel pressure, fuel volume, tanks vented (creating a vacuum), cracked fuel lines sucking air, the list goes on...
In my experience, something in the pump, or a loose pump = high rpm, not low rpm. 3800 rpm & AA= ~225 hp, and an A is ~200 hp, depending on your build, you are missing ~200 hp, or so or about 1000 rpm.
Definitely check the tach accuracy. 1-2% is livable, 10% is 380 rpm, witch is either 4180 (hi side) to 3420 (lo side), still dismal for a BBC.
Check all the things GT said, too
Dan'l
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I had a 355 cubic in. mouse spin an AB at 4,200 rpm.
GT
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Glenn-
Bone stock sbc?
My ZZ4-ish motor spins a AA (American Turbine) at 4200. swapping it out for an A (Berk)
Dan'l
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Thanks on pump info know nothing about them at all first one I've owned. Sorry outboard convert like in earlier post switched from 750 edelbrock to 850 holley with better overall performance but still only 3900 rpm boat doesn't stumble at all just stops pulling will check fuel pressure next sure would be nice not to have to do a pump before the season
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Glenn-
Bone stock sbc?
My ZZ4-ish motor spins a AA (American Turbine) at 4200. swapping it out for an A (Berk)
Dan'l
Very few GM parts. 8)
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FYI, it would be very rare for a messed up pump to hold the engine back.
If there are no rocks in it, the problem is elsewhere.
JMO
GT
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I agree I was thinking something was stuck in the pump. are you sure your getting full throttle. Did you spin the pump over by hand before hooking it up to the motor.
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Can't see anything in pump did spin fine and do have full throttle. Is a head scratcher for sure probably be something easy I'm overlooking that's why I'm consulting the pros
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whats your timing set to?
Check fuel pressure
Check fuel filter
Verify theres nothing int he fuel lines or tanks/no cracked lines
try running it with a gas cap off see if that helps
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Will try all these tips hopefully on Sunday at Elsinore
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Think I found the problem!
Probabley right my powerstroke runs bitchin maybe I should put that in it almost spins as high and fuel is cheaper
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So,you replaced motor,was it ok and running??
850 d/P carb,rebuilt and was it ok and running??
HEI ignition, checked and running??
3800 rpm.....is that in the water or on the trailer without any load.
Otherwords,you've tried your boat/pump on the trailer with the garden hose hooked up?
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Just throwing this out there but what about a seized bearing in the pump?
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Boat new to us was told jet was rebuilt dominator bought a rebuilt motor just put new 850 on it no difference in rpm but runs alot better every where else timing at 34 total fuel pressure at 6 pounds at ideal have to check that on water under load to see if I might have a problem there boat runs great just rpm challenged replaced all gauges and they all stayed the same if I had a bearing issue should I have a noise because there is none
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Boat new to us was told jet was rebuilt dominator bought a rebuilt motor just put new 850 on it no difference in rpm but runs alot better every where else timing at 34 total fuel pressure at 6 pounds at ideal have to check that on water under load to see if I might have a problem there boat runs great just rpm challenged replaced all gauges and they all stayed the same if I had a bearing issue should I have a noise because there is none
I would definitely think there would be noise, but I have seen stranger things happen........At least from the automotive industry standpoint. (Not a full time boat mechanic by any means)
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What 850 carburetor? Double pumper?
Square bore?
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Same here old garage monkey new to this jet boat scene
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Same here old garage monkey new to this jet boat scene
Maybe unbolt the drive shaft and spin it by hand just to eliminate it.....hahaha (you have a eliminator) O0 If your a old school mechanic I don't see why you would have any problems making the motor run right. :beer:
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That's why I'm scratching my head on this one. Boat runs great just not hitting the rpm s think I'll try unbolting jet to check one more thing off the list
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That's why I'm scratching my head on this one. Boat runs great just not hitting the rpm s think I'll try unbolting jet to check one more thing off the list
What carburetor? Mechanical or vacuum secondary?
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850 mechanical holley
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This is my pain in the ass want to thank everyone will test it again Sunday maybe without the plug in it if you know what I'm mean
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I'm not a genius or anything, but the firing order looks incorrect.
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.
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Keep in mind, in using my phone and am blind in one eye and can't see out of the other.
Lol
GT
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Didn't hurt to check just went and did that and it's correct scared me for a second would have to wear the dumas shirt for that one
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Wouldn't be my first time
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Keep in mind, in using my phone and am blind in one eye and can't see out of the other.
Lol
GT
I have the same problem..................... :beer: :beer: :beer:
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Didn't hurt to check just went and did that and it's correct scared me for a second would have to wear the dumas shirt for that one
So here's a dumb one. How is the HEI wired?
Hopefully to a fairly heavy wire from the ignition switch or a relay, with no resistor.
I got nothin'.
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So here's a dumb one. How is the HEI wired?
Hopefully to a fairly heavy wire from the ignition switch or a relay, with no resistor.
I got nothin'.
this is what I got wire smaller gauge go back to ignition switch might that be a problem no resister anywhere
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this is what I got wire smaller gauge go back to ignition switch might that be a problem no resister anywhere
Hate to keep going down the same road, I'm sometimes like a dog with a damn bone, did you install that wire with the yellow heat shrink? Could that be resistor wire?
GT
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Also, the bone again lol, at what rpm does the timing hit 34 degrees?
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That was already there haven't missed with wiring to much other than try to clean it up a bit. Wiring was a rat nest
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On the timing I think around 2500 to 3000
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Does the hei get a full 12 volts?
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Does the hei get a full 12 volts?
Now you have the bone. Lol
That red wire looks like resistor wire.
GT
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Now you have the bone. Lol
That red wire looks like resistor wire.
GT
Hey its an easy check!
I know nothing about this old distrusparky stuff...
8 coils, 2 sensors, 4 plugs, turn key vroom vroom for me
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Will check that I'll chase that bone next. Thanks guys
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Bone chased has 12v thought you might have had something there got a little excited Damn
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Time to get nitrous
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Time to get nitrous
Get it all the way up to 4,000 ground pounding RPM.lol
GT
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Funny my buddy told me same thing. Might just live with it just a cruiser anyway
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Butterflies open to WOT?
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Yep
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And it's not popping or cutting out at wot? Just gets to s certain rpm and just stops pulling?
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That might be all she got. Do you know anything on the motor build? I've seen stock motors in cruisers max out at 4000 on a good day. Just my .02
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Damn Chevy.... Bet that ford next to it in the picture revs a lil higher.......😜
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Exactly what happens runs great all the way through just stops at3900 GPS on phone says 47mph
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I'm starting to think the cam timing is a million miles off.
Do you have a cam card and a degree wheel?
It will be something fundamental.
GT
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I'm not a big fan on the hei. There good all around and cheap dizzy but they do have there max.
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Damn Chevy.... Bet that ford next to it in the picture revs a lil higher.......😜
your right bit the cam in sounds a little shity. Haha
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Might be right stock with a small cam that's it. Maybe time for a Ford to make FordLover and liberty 77 happy
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Exactly what happens runs great all the way through just stops at3900 GPS on phone says 47mph
50mph wish a stock 454 is probably bout right. In my 19ft day with a mild built 460 was only 55mph.
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That's what I'm thinking now. Planning on going to Elsinore Sunday. Got to go to Santa Barbara tomorrow for a wedding come home Saturday and lake Sunday if everything goes as planned
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Post if you go and I'll see if I can make it out.
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I sure will
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Exactly what happens runs great all the way through just stops at3900 GPS on phone says 47mph
You're not the only one scratching your head. I have basically the same boat, heavy as hell. Most I've seen for rpm is about 4200 at 50-52mph
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I dont know if i missed it or not but have we pulled a spark plug out of this thing yet to see what it looks like?? O0
Your Friendly local v-drive owner
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Only other time I've seen this happen was because of too small of a carb but a 850 should be more than enough. Like everyone's sayin depending on the impeller that might be all she's got
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That's what I'm thinking now. Planning on going to Elsinore Sunday. Got to go to Santa Barbara tomorrow for a wedding come home Saturday and lake Sunday if everything goes as planned
I'll be out there sunday.. 77_liberty weather is promising would be dope too catch some of those Willies on video this time!
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Poked around on Cranes website and found this-
'H-286-2 2400-6200
226 .534" I
236 .553" E
112
Hydraulic Flat tappet'
Leads me to this-
Run a Compression Check. If the Cam has a flat lobe or two, It will not perform, and 'eat' itself up.
Sounds like the Ignition system checks out, as well as fuel.
The lift of that cam, Exhaust especially, might, and I mean MIGHT be getting interference between the valve stem seal and valve spring retainer. (I had to clearance ~.100" on a .578" lift cam, to end up at .040-.050" clearence) that will kill a lobe or 8.
As Glenn mentioned earlier, Cam timing, this would also show up in a compression test.
As would a busted valve spring, bent pushrod.
The other thing thats sticking in my head...timing @ 8* btdc, and 34* btdc at ~2500. 'Typical' GM HEI has 20-22* mechanical advance. The numbers don't add up (28 to 30*, total is what I see)
A bone stock smog '78 wrecker 454, 210 hp (GM spec) pulled 4400 (with an 'A' imp.), on the primaries of a 750 holley.
That (your) 454 is still missing 1000 rpm or so.
Back to basics.
Dan'l
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yeah a flat cam isnt a bad idea.
do you hear any tapping? Something you can do is to cover the exhaust with a couple of towels while its idling to hear if the engine is quiet or not.
i do this every once in a while since mine is so damn loud i will never hear a knock or tap
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On a stock 454 that 850 carb may be too much. Just a thought
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On a stock 454 that 850 carb may be too much. Just a thought
Never in a million years.
They came from the factory with 825 Quadrajets.
GT
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Besides, letting off the throttle would verify that.
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Never in a million years will a chevy run right
GT
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OK funny guy.
If you're suggesting that he switched to a Ford, you may want to offer some insight on how to take it in the butt without flinching too much.
:o
GT
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Haha
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I drink lots of vodka and whiskey. Which makes things a lot easier to take in life. Take that as you will. Lol
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I drink lots of vodka and whiskey. Which makes things a lot easier to take in life. Take that as you will. Lol
ROFLMAO!
GT
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At this point, I'd do a compression check. My 2 cts...
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OK funny guy.
If you're suggesting that he switched to a Ford, you may want to offer some insight on how to take it in the butt without flinching too much.
:o
GT
. Well said sir........well said. I think we can be friends
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No tapping all rockers are tight oil is clean will check compression next
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. Well said sir........well said. I think we can be friends
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What about me? Friends? BFF's?
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What about me? Friends? BFF's?
What's a BFF?
A Broken Fukkin Ford?
Just curious.
GT
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What's a BFF?
A Broken Fukkin Ford?
Just curious.
GT
No no no Glenn. Silly boy. Replace broken with BADASS!!!
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What about me? Friends? BFF's?
. You know the deal when you get you Chevy we will be buddies.
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OK funny guy.
If you're suggesting that he switched to a Ford, you may want to offer some insight on how to take it in the butt without flinching too much.
:o
GT
Good one gt
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What's a BFF?
A Broken Fukkin Ford?
Just curious.
GT
GT pulled 2 quarts oil out of motor and picked up 400 rpm now getting 4200 talked with a few people at the green drink today and they said that's about what they get so maybe I'm ok boat ran great. Thanks to everybody for there advice greatly appreciated
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Yea mines a 10qt pan but with the way the pans built and screen it likes 8qts
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Missed you out there today weather was great have to hook up soon
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Missed you out there today weather was great have to hook up soon
Yea deff I'm always up to hangout on the lake
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GT pulled 2 quarts oil out of motor and picked up 400 rpm now getting 4200 talked with a few people at the green drink today and they said that's about what they get so maybe I'm ok boat ran great. Thanks to everybody for there advice greatly appreciated
Affirmative! I bet 8 is the magic number.
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Affirmative! I bet 8 is the magic number.
go figure all the bullshit we went through and money it was something simple as that
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I run 8 in my 10 quart pan. But I am a ford guy so who the F knows.
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No windage trays?