SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: Brad @ SCJB on June 26, 2012, 01:55:33 PM
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Well, it broke. Kinda weird, but greatful i didnt do major damage. Heres the story of events how it came to be....
The boat was running like a raped ape up at Burley this past weekend. After pulling a 1st and just as i passed the finish line, i decelerated and heard a 'clunk clunk'. ....i rev'd back into it slowly and heard a clunk again when i slowed down. I shut it off and got towed in. Fired it on the trailer and everything sounded great. I said screw it, lets put fuel in it and go run the main. While whiping it down is when i saw some knuckle marks on the pan. At that point we threw in the towel for the weekend.
It looks like I lucked out. No damage to the crank or any of the rotating assembly. The skirts on a couple of pistons are dinged up, the windage tray is torn up, and of course the block is junk. So in search for a new block. I got a few in my garage, but i dont know if they are usable. What block numbers are the more desirable ones?
Heres the pics of the carnage....
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are you serious the crank is ok???? wow
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that sucks brad. if you want you can join me on the river this weekend i have room in my boat.. i will be there fri till sunday
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That explains why it was will running and grns over freely. Way better than it could have been :thumbup:
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That SUX Brad ! As far as to wat block is best, Ralphs dad or Lakes would no best. Did they ever produce a 4bolt 460 block ?? If so I would go that route, ur block must have flexed to come apart like that, too much power, 4bolt wont flex as much, imho.
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Brad I have a D0VE-a in classifieds
Chris
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I'm running one of these. Just so that don't happen!
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTR-21-066/ (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTR-21-066/)
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What a weird failure... :-\
How many torque cycles did the main bolts have on them? Looks like a main bolt failure to me.
Guess it's good you don't have one of those three piece cranks... :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
GT
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That much HP is deserving of a four bolt main. :thumbup:
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''The boat was running like a raped ape ''
Even with lawn mowers, every engine that has gave up the ghost on me has ran this way first…
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It was always my understanding that the D0VE-A blocks were the only ones that "could be" 4-bolt, but it was a crap shoot because not all were. These can be converted more readily with a kit.
IDK I am not a Ford guy...... :-\
This looks like a bolt failure to me.. Stud the next one. :thumbup:
GT
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well you have about 5 weeks till Long Beach... better hurry haha..
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What a weird failure... :-\
How many torque cycles did the main bolts have on them? Looks like a main bolt failure to me.
Guess it's good you don't have one of those three piece cranks... :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
GT
That's what I see too, snapped main bolt. Lucky. Just shows how strong those cranks are! ;)
The D0VE-A block really don't mean much by itself, but it was made as a "thick web" casting as well as the regular castings you see every day. A thick web casting can be machined to accept SCJ or Ford racing 4 bolt caps. Been awhile since I looked at the pics, but I think the one Chris is selling IS a thick web block and pretty darn cheap too. If I had a way to get it here quick I'd be on it like a fat kid on a cake. :thumbup:
Regular blocks can also be converted with some splayed billet 4 bolt caps that I found....hafta look that up again, lost all my bookmarks during another recent computer struggle. :banghead: But i'm also not convinced you need to go to that, Brad, but I would be putting new ARP main bolts in the new one.
Ray
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Yes...it was main bolt failure.....broke the one off where you can see it still in the hole.....then ripping the opposing one out subsequently breaking the block.
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well you have about 5 weeks till Long Beach... better hurry haha..
I don't think i will ever run long beach again.
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thats a bummer... saw your FB posts about being a spectator. theres always next race!
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Shoulda clarified. Paul will chime in I'm sure, but other than finding a thick web D0VE block, they're pretty much the same as the D2VE's we all have everywhere. The later ('79 up)D9TE blocks can probably also be used in your case with the casting number on your external balance crank.
Ray
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I've learned from Paul and Jon Kaase that stock blocks are good to 800-1000hp with the right parts, but my "lottery" motor will have one of these blocks!!! 8)
http://www.jonkaaseracingengines.com/products/blocks/eliminator-blocks/64-eliminator-blocks.html (http://www.jonkaaseracingengines.com/products/blocks/eliminator-blocks/64-eliminator-blocks.html)
Of course I know I'll never win the lottery, but I can dream about it! :D
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Brad,
Ouch, too bad. Sorry to see this but for what it's worth it could have been worse.
Yes, it appears as though a main cap bolt failed and the opposing bolt then got ripped out of the block webbing.
You mentioned you have a few more blocks. I see your pistons are SRP 150726s. (4.44" bore) I have a set of 150727's (4.39" bore bore) if you have a std bore block and want to save your future overbores for later.
All the 429/460 blocks are good ones, and any of them will accept your particular rotating assembly. (By the way, mic the pistons after detailing them and check rods for straightness, etc). As 2-bolt cylinder blocks, all the different casting revisions have about the same amount of structural integrity and power handling capability, generally speaking.
(I'm gong to discuss "bolts" and "studs" below, and I use that terminology very specifically...BOLTS and STUDS verbatim. Please read as such.)
I think the OEM main bolts are fine but I would completely understand if you have become weary of them. If you must use a different fastener, then opt for some ARP main bolts. I do not recommend the ARP main studs for these engines as I feel they are incorrectly engineered for the application and are cause for more cap walking than the OEM main bolts.
Having said that, I also think that stronger bolts (such as ARP bolts) are for stronger blocks. I've concluded Ford got this block design balanced out pretty well; I've never before seen or heard of a main bolt breaking and they've been used in engines with hp double that of yours. However...I've also come to the concluson that the form of racing you're in is among the most abusive of all racing and so if you want to strengthen your block then a 4-bolt conversion with OEM main bolts might be your best bet. The addition of the Grade 8 7/16" outer bolts will further distribute the loads that the are normally carried by the std 2-bolt mains. Just stepping up to ARP main bolts (in a 2-bolt block) will transfer a greater, focused load to the block's main webbing more-so than the OEM main bolts (which will absorb more of the shock)...I don't like that approach and that's why I prefer the OEM Grade 8 main bolts over the ARP main bolts in the 2-bolt blocks. My philosophy on this requires a lot of explaining; feel free to call if you want to discuss (way too much to type). The easiest and most cost effective way for most end users to get a 4-bolted block is to start with a D0VE-A block and some offshore billet main caps, such as the Procomp main caps. Don't be afraid of the Procomp main caps, they are solid pieces of billet steel that will be fully machined at your engine shop. Otherwise, Milodon makes 4-bolt caps as well.
If you end up needing another block for some reason (if all your blocks are unusable) then I'll give you one.
LO
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All, in regards to the capabilites of the OEM 429/460 passenger car blocks:
The Ford 429/460 passenger car blocks, on any given year of production, use the exact same block casting for that production year. The D0VE-A block casting was available as both a 2-bolt block and as a 4-bolt block but the 460 engine was not produced with a 4-bolt block, the 4-bolted blocks came on 429 SCJ engines and some 429 PI engines exclusively.
The thicker main webbing of the D0VE-A facilitated the 4-bolt conversion. These days there are special 4-bolt main cap conversion kits that enable 4-bolting standard webbed blocks as well.
I have known 2-bolt standard-webbed 460 blocks to have supported 1500 hp (in fact one of those very blocks is in the shop right now). I do not recommend this practice to others.
I have also known 2-bolt standard-webbed 460 blocks to have supported 3000 hp with nothing more than a 4-bolt main cap conversion and an o-ringed deck surface. I do not recommend this practice to others.
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Brad, two more questons:
1) Which main cap (bolt) failed, 1, 2, or 4? I can see it's not #3 (thrust) or # 5 (rear seal), but which failed?
2) Can you please post a picture of a good main cap and the corresponding main webbing--specifically I wish to see the mating surfaces where they mate (looking for cap walk/metal transfer)?
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Ill get some pics.....its cap #2
I have one D9VE-B block and two D1VE-6015-42B blocks in my garage. No idea of the condition of any of them just yet. Which one should i lean towards?
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I assume you have a C9VE-B and D1VE block. I tend to think that all the passenger car blocks have about the same power handling capability, generally speaking. If I were building for your application I'd inspect them both carefully for any abnormalities such as casting voids, core shift, or obvious previous abuse. And these days I'd sonic check and the comparison of each block's overall wall thicknesses would play a significant part in my final block selection.
But without any sonic checking, I might just opt for the C9VE-B block since the pistons will be closer to TDC.....but then again either block would get decked in a 500-inch racing engine build so I'm not sure how noteworthy the point about the C9VE's lesser deck height actually is in this particular build. It's really an eeny-meeny-miny-mo decison if both blocks appear suitable to the naked eye and without having been sonic checked. They're all pretty strong--remember your actual cylinder block itself did not fail.
If you do get them sonic checked, here's a tip: Generally, the thinnest area of the 385 Series cylinders seems to usually be about 1-inch below the deck surface so make sure the person testing is aware of this. The farther down you go in a cylinder the thicker they become and a sonic check report with "spot checks" taken at, say mid-cylinder, would give falsely high thickess readings. In fact our sonic check sheet states "all readings noted are taken at at 1-inch below cylinder deck unless otherwise noted."