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sturat 514

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514 Cam Help
« on: August 13, 2009, 01:55:20 PM »
Just bulit a 514 stroker and made to pulls on the dyno yesterday and the numbers where much lower than i hoped for. I am 99% it is my cam shaft hurting me. I am going to change the rockers tonight and they will make a another pull on Monday (they are closed tomorrow) I am running 1.7 now and going to throw on some 1.8 to make sure it is my cam choking the motor.
Here are the details from i recall. Has been a long process so i do not recall all the exact numbers internally for the bulid
514 Ford
Pro Comp Super Cobra Jet 95cc heads
Manley SS valves can not recall the numbers right off hand
Heads are flowing 335
Weiland dual four tunnel ram
X2 QFT 750's
SRP flat tops
10.7:1 comp
Eagle crank
Eagle H-beam rods
Full MSD box soft touch everything
Pulled good tq at 675 ftlb but the hp was at 525 at 4,900 then just went flat as flat can be
The cam i am running now is 577 lift 284 dur hydraulic roller
What would you guys suggest i change it to? I have to stay under .700 due to the heads will not flow any more than that
Sorry for the long post and TIA
Stuart

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pw_Tony

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2009, 02:01:55 PM »
What's your seat pressure on the springs? The best way to tell if it "needs" more cam, is to try the 1.8's back to back with the 1.7's on the dyno. That doesn't seem like much cam at all for that cubic inch thou.

I'm sure Ralph will chime in with his opinion
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sturat 514

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2009, 02:03:07 PM »
What's your seat pressure on the springs? The best way to tell if it "needs" more cam, is to try the 1.8's back to back with the 1.7's on the dyno. That doesn't seem like much cam at all for that cubic inch thou.

I'm sure Ralph will chime in with his opinion
just talked to the guy who did the heads 135 seatd and 335 open
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 02:12:50 PM by sturat 514 »
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obnoxious001

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2009, 11:23:42 PM »
Did the cam go in straight up?  Degreed to verify that it was right?  Spring pressure sounds slightly softer than I might have gone, but shouldn't float at 4900. 

I am not a real Ford guy, but that's about how much cam I would put in a similar mild 454/468 Chevy, so would personally go with more duration with the over 500 inch engine, and probably more lift.  Also, you didn't mention what the lobe center is on the cam.
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LakesOnly

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2009, 11:27:22 PM »
Just bulit a 514 stroker and made to pulls on the dyno yesterday and the numbers where much lower than i hoped for. I am 99% it is my cam shaft hurting me. I am going to change the rockers tonight and they will make a another pull on Monday (they are closed tomorrow) I am running 1.7 now and going to throw on some 1.8 to make sure it is my cam choking the motor.
Here are the details from i recall. Has been a long process so i do not recall all the exact numbers internally for the bulid
514 Ford
Pro Comp Super Cobra Jet 95cc heads
Manley SS valves can not recall the numbers right off hand
Heads are flowing 335
Weiland dual four tunnel ram
X2 QFT 750's
SRP flat tops
10.7:1 comp
Eagle crank
Eagle H-beam rods
Full MSD box soft touch everything
Pulled good tq at 675 ftlb but the hp was at 525 at 4,900 then just went flat as flat can be
The cam i am running now is 577 lift 284 dur hydraulic roller
What would you guys suggest i change it to? I have to stay under .700 due to the heads will not flow any more than that
Sorry for the long post and TIA
Stuart


1) Post a dyno sheet so that we can see what's happening power-wise
2) The ProComp heads are not SCJ heads, they are based on the D3VE "smogger" head and are definitely costing you power compared to most every other head choice out there. Please don't point to the flow numbers, they mean much less than most people seem to realize. For example, Kaase's P51 heads and his new Hemi heads both flow the same numbers, but on a given shortblock the hemi head makes 100 hp more on the dyno. There is soooooo much more to heads than flow numbers so don't be fooled by them.
3) Post the camshaft part number, or at least the duration @ 0.050 and duration @ 0.020.
4) If you haven't done so already, the Weiand tunnel ram could use some work in the pleunum.
5) Adding 1.8 rockers may help or hurt the engine power depending on the movenment of the valve timing events relative to the direction they need to be sent.

LO
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sturat 514

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2009, 07:34:05 AM »
LO
So when they say SCJ they are only refering to the intake ports?
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LakesOnly

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2009, 09:08:16 AM »
LO
So when they say SCJ they are only refering to the intake ports?
No, the intake port is not like the SCJ at all.  As delivered, there is nothing about the ProComp intake ports that resemble the SCJ heads. Nothing. They are modeled after the D3VE intake port, in fact they are a direct copy of a D3VE intake port, but with less room to grow than the factory iron D3VE. Even a CJ port match (which refers to a gasket match at the port entry only and not the entire intake port architecture) can be more effectively executed on the factory iron heads than the ProComp head (unless you do a ridiculous amount of welding on the outside of the intake ports of the Procomp Heads). The combustion chamber shape is modeled after the D3VE's 95 cc chamber, not the CJ's superiorly shaped 72cc chamber.

Whomever is suggesting that the ProComp head is based on an SCJ head is grossly in error. I see this all the time with non-Ford enthusiasts that are instantly wowed by the big intake ports of these passenger car engines and immediatey assume "it must be a Cobra Jet!"  ::)

But these are the head you are running and you want more power. Please post a dyno sheet and the camshaft part number.

LO
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 09:10:30 AM by LakesOnly »
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sturat 514

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2009, 09:42:44 AM »
No, the intake port is not like the SCJ at all.  As delivered, there is nothing about the ProComp intake ports that resemble the SCJ heads. Nothing. They are modeled after the D3VE intake port, in fact they are a direct copy of a D3VE intake port, but with less room to grow than the factory iron D3VE. Even a CJ port match (which refers to a gasket match at the port entry only and not the entire intake port architecture) can be more effectively executed on the factory iron heads than the ProComp head (unless you do a ridiculous amount of welding on the outside of the intake ports of the Procomp Heads). The combustion chamber shape is modeled after the D3VE's 95 cc chamber, not the CJ's superiorly shaped 72cc chamber.

Whomever is suggesting that the ProComp head is based on an SCJ head is grossly in error. I see this all the time with non-Ford enthusiasts that are instantly wowed by the big intake ports of these passenger car engines and immediatey assume "it must be a Cobra Jet!"  ::)

But these are the head you are running and you want more power. Please post a dyno sheet and the camshaft part number.

LO

Will do the post on Monday. The Dyno shop is closed today for a funneral so I will have them send it Monday. I will post the cam numbers tonight when I get home. It was a custom grind and I have the cam card at home. Thanks for your advise and knowledge. Sounds like i should have talked to you prior to starting my bulid not after the fact oh well lesson learned Rookie mistake. I will get the most out of these that i can can go from there. Might run them on this motor for a season then put them on the stock motor next winter and get better ones for the 514
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sturat 514

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2009, 10:52:44 AM »
No, the intake port is not like the SCJ at all.  As delivered, there is nothing about the ProComp intake ports that resemble the SCJ heads. Nothing. They are modeled after the D3VE intake port, in fact they are a direct copy of a D3VE intake port, but with less room to grow than the factory iron D3VE. Even a CJ port match (which refers to a gasket match at the port entry only and not the entire intake port architecture) can be more effectively executed on the factory iron heads than the ProComp head (unless you do a ridiculous amount of welding on the outside of the intake ports of the Procomp Heads). The combustion chamber shape is modeled after the D3VE's 95 cc chamber, not the CJ's superiorly shaped 72cc chamber.

Whomever is suggesting that the ProComp head is based on an SCJ head is grossly in error. I see this all the time with non-Ford enthusiasts that are instantly wowed by the big intake ports of these passenger car engines and immediatey assume "it must be a Cobra Jet!"  ::)

But these are the head you are running and you want more power. Please post a dyno sheet and the camshaft part number.

LO

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Sleeper CP 19

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2009, 03:34:38 PM »
Stuart,

Sorry that you got sucked into the Pro-Comp heads. Sometimes there's a very good reason parts are cheap; Pro- Comp is a prime example. 

Paul (Lakesonly) is a very good source to talk to.  Hopefully he can help you out on this to get the best out of what you have.

FYI, My 10.2:1 compression 512" (4.44x4.14)  with a solid roller and TFS A-460's with a single domi made 710 hp at 6,000 and 661 lbs. ft at 5,000 many years ago ('92). It was a pretty small roller.

Good luck on your project, hopefully you'll be able to afford to ditch the Pro-Comps in a year or two.  Like to see you cam specs and dyno sheet like Paul said. Where was that trq number ?

Sleeper CP

Big Inch Ford Lover.
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sturat 514

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2009, 08:25:55 AM »
Stuart,

Sorry that you got sucked into the Pro-Comp heads. Sometimes there's a very good reason parts are cheap; Pro- Comp is a prime example. 

Paul (Lakesonly) is a very good source to talk to.  Hopefully he can help you out on this to get the best out of what you have.

FYI, My 10.2:1 compression 512" (4.44x4.14)  with a solid roller and TFS A-460's with a single domi made 710 hp at 6,000 and 661 lbs. ft at 5,000 many years ago ('92). It was a pretty small roller.

Good luck on your project, hopefully you'll be able to afford to ditch the Pro-Comps in a year or two.  Like to see you cam specs and dyno sheet like Paul said. Where was that trq number ?

Sleeper CP

Big Inch Ford Lover.
Yeah i am little pissed to say the least about what is going on. I had a friend who works for a head shop recomend the heads and i know my cam could be a little bigger still not happy with the dyno results. I sent Paul my dyno sheet as I could not post it as it is a PDF file and I have no way to scan it in and then post. I was wrong on the numbers also. It made 589 ft/lb and 517 hp make HP at 5,400. I will change the heads and cam now if that is the issue and chalk it up to lessoned learned. I have a stock 460 in my Sanger and i think the heads and cam will work perfect in that boat. Time to get new ones for the 514 that is going to go in the youngblood.
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IRRebel

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2009, 08:32:04 AM »
Awful stuff to find out Stuart! Feel the pain there guy!

Who woulda thought they would have went to the trouble to design and cast Smog Heads in aluminum and then peddle them as HP heads?

Let's blame the Chinese................lol.

Ray
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"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit what a ride!"---Crewcheif22 AKA Keith

LakesOnly

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2009, 09:00:12 AM »
Got the dyno sheets. Please post the camshaft part number and/or profile. The torque numbers look pretty good. Based on that curve and also the peak hp I suspect that a bigger camshaft will make a notable difference.

LO
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sturat 514

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2009, 09:23:37 AM »
Got the dyno sheets. Please post the camshaft part number and/or profile. The torque numbers look pretty good. Based on that curve and also the peak hp I suspect that a bigger camshaft will make a notable difference.

LO

They did run it again on Saturday using the 1.8 rockers and it gained 22 HP and pushed out the max torque 300 RPM. I am trying to locate the cam card but a tuff job as my house is in shambles right now. I am having the inside painted and it is a total mess. Crap is in every which room shoved to the center and coverd what a pain in the a$$
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sturat 514

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2009, 09:39:53 AM »
.577 lift
242
248
356
357
Does this help?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 09:43:33 AM by sturat 514 »
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LakesOnly

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2009, 12:43:17 PM »
.577 lift
242
248
356
357
Does this help?
Yes, that helps a lot. You need more camshaft. In fact the power gains with the addition of the 1.8 rockers supports this as that change gives your valve timing more area under the curve.

Question: You refer to your engine as a 514 but the dyno sheet says 4.3 stroke x 4.39 bore (521 CI), is the dyno sheet correct on the bore and stroke?

LO
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 12:47:08 PM by LakesOnly »
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sturat 514

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2009, 12:55:58 PM »
I see that now. He input the wrong bore and stroke as this is a 514 not a 521 I think my stroke is 4.14?
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sturat 514

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2009, 01:32:05 PM »
looking at this for the new cam.. Gonna run the heads i have do not want to drop another 2K  :banghead:
.645
.248
.254
110 degree LC
I wonder what this is going to give me?
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sturat 514

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2009, 07:44:30 PM »
Stuart,

Sorry that you got sucked into the Pro-Comp heads. Sometimes there's a very good reason parts are cheap; Pro- Comp is a prime example. 

Paul (Lakesonly) is a very good source to talk to.  Hopefully he can help you out on this to get the best out of what you have.

FYI, My 10.2:1 compression 512" (4.44x4.14)  with a solid roller and TFS A-460's with a single domi made 710 hp at 6,000 and 661 lbs. ft at 5,000 many years ago ('92). It was a pretty small roller.

Good luck on your project, hopefully you'll be able to afford to ditch the Pro-Comps in a year or two.  Like to see you cam specs and dyno sheet like Paul said. Where was that trq number ?

Sleeper CP

Big Inch Ford Lover.
what sucks about this is i did not choose them. They came recommened to me i was looking at TFS or Edelbrocks is where i had it narrowed down to. A "friend" wh works at a head shop hyped them up big time and said they would work just as well needless to say i am not happy with his recomendation. I am stuck with them for next season lessoned learned go with the gut
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LakesOnly

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2009, 11:37:43 PM »
looking at this for the new cam.. Gonna run the heads i have do not want to drop another 2K  :banghead:
.645
.248
.254
110 degree LC
I wonder what this is going to give me?
You have a bit of a dilemma here. Your heads are a bit of a bottle-neck but you should be able to get more power from the engine with a few changes.

Although the above camshaft grind is better suited for your engine than the one that is currently in it, I feel that you might be asking too much of the hydraulic roller setup by stepping up to that grind.  What I mean is....if you want a bigger cam (which I do think your engine needs), then you need to also consider solid roller lifters to go with that bigger camshaft. Hydraulic rollers need to have lighter springs (such as your 135 seat/335 open spring pressures) because with bigger/stiffer valve springs the hydraulic lifter plungers would get mashed as the lifters bleed down while the engine is idling -- clatter-clatter. Conversely, a .645" roller cam with solid lifters will wreak havok on those little springs that are currently in your engine.  Therefore, if you want significantly more camshaft you really need to consider bigger springs and solid lifters as well. So, new cam, roller lifters and springs + ~$1000. The question is, do you want to spend $1000 for perhaps 100 hp?

Additionally, as you go bigger and bigger at the camshaft there will be an increasing diminishing return due to the limitations of the heads, so you will also have to come to terms with the fact that getting the max hp numbers you were originally targeting may not be in the cards...or may not be worth the added expense and effort to make it happen. Further, due to the presumed I/E flow ratio of your cylinder heads, you would be well advised to get a custom ground roller with a big split that is not normally found in the shelf grinds.

The alternate "Plan B" camshaft profile that you suggested above is very similar to a CompCams XR286R. Yes, I could see the XR286R making a substantial difference in a 2x4 tunnel rammed, aluminum-headed 514, but the ProComp heads will likely "come up short" for supporting the rest of the engine combination. By that I mean that your 514 will want to produce peak power at an rpm range that will be hindered by the heads, not necessarily the camshaft anymore.

One alternative way to circumvent the exorbitant price of the roller cam swap is to consider a solid flat tappet cam such as the Lunati # 416A3LUN

Lift = .637"/.630"
Dur @ 0.050" = 247*/256*
LSA = 106*

or Lunati # 416A4LUN

Lift = 0.633"/0.636"
Dur @ 0.050" = 252*/259*
LSA = 108*

Please note that lobe profiles are quite different between flat tappet and roller cams, and so while in this case the "hp gained vs. dollars spent" is a better ratio with the solid flat tappet camshaft I doubt you'd clear 600 hp....but I imagine you'd certainly be happer with the engine in the boat and might find that it performs acceptably.  Unfortuately I'm not certain which of these two Lunati cams might be better suited for the Procomp heads due to the narrow "combination window" that they create under the circumstances.

Good luck,

LO
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 12:57:26 AM by LakesOnly »
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sturat 514

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Re: 514 Cam Help
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2009, 06:47:57 AM »
LO
Thank you for all your help with my dilemma. I am not sure which way i am going to go but i have to make it today. The machine shop only has a few days left before they need to pull my motor off the dyno and put on the next one. They are going to break it down on the dyno and pull the old cam and get the new one installed and ran this week. Again thank you for all your help.
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