SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: koyota93 on May 22, 2008, 12:06:59 AM
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So I am getting the boat ready for Big River for Memorial. Its a Howard with a 454 BBC. Just rebuilt the carb and installed new fuel lines, fuel filter, and Bassett's. I go to start the boat and the thing cranks for a good 30 seconds or so on off. I know its not gonna start immediately because the fuel needs to prime. I am cranking and spraying WD-40 in the carb ( no starter fluid can't find it), and then it sound like it was about to start then it sounded kinda like a backfire too a little pop sound. Now all I hear is grinding from the starter. Took the starter out to find the nose cone cracked. Its probably the 3rd starter that has cracked in 3 years. I have had 2 that took a sh*t but didn't crack. The last one that cracked was also after a long period of cranking. I just don't know what the problem is. They seem to work well for a while. I have a feeling the little backfire thing caused it to crack but it doesn't really make sense. I have never used any shims because it always seemed to work properly. Oh the thing was hot too when I took it out. Its a reman one from Napa. I just traded it in for one from AutoZone.
Thanks in advance.
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does your motor have a lot of compression? I would step up and buy a high tork mini. Aslo you shouldnt have to turn it over for that long, and if you do give it a break after 10 seconds or so. Try priming with gas next time. I guessing your fuel pump is not electric?
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does your motor have a lot of compression? I would step up and buy a high tork mini. Aslo you shouldnt have to turn it over for that long, and if you do give it a break after 10 seconds or so. Try priming with gas next time. I guessing your fuel pump is not electric?
Not sure what compression it has. It seems to be a fairly stock motor with 990 Rectangle heads. It was only cranking for about 10 sec at a time but for about 3 times with 15 sec intervals. I think there might not be enough gas in the tank and it is sitting at an angle on my driveway too. My main concern is why the starter breaks. I do not want to buy an expensive starter and have it break.
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I found a starter that is made of ? steel or iron instead of aluminum and the problem went away.
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Oh yea, you may have to shim the starter. The shims are available at any parts house. GM starter bolts are special in that part of the bolt's shank is wider or knurled to align the starter, make sure you have stock starter bolts and not "generic" bolts bolting up your starter.
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Oh yea, you may have to shim the starter. The shims are available at any parts house. GM starter bolts are special in that part of the bolt's shank is wider or knurled to align the starter, make sure you have stock starter bolts and not "generic" bolts bolting up your starter.
Yup, Chevys need to be shimmed correctly. And WD40 won't light from a lighter taken to it, much less with spark from a plug
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. And WD40 won't light from a lighter taken to it, much less with spark from a plug
:D :D
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If you're out of starting fluid carb cleaner works well.
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find the corvette version starters early 70s vettes and high performance big blocks they have a cast iron nose and they are high torque also shimming is important the mini starter is the way to go though you can get them very cheap from jegs summit or even autozone carries the autolite version
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damn, I knew my buddy was BSing me with the WD40. He said it was better for the engine than starter fluid because it lubes the sidewalls and it will fire because he says its made with propane. I knew he was full of it. :mad:
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WD40 does work, just not nearly as good as starting fluid or carb cleaner.
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WD40 does work, just not nearly as good as starting fluid or carb cleaner.
Go outside, spray WD40 on the ground, try to light it, it won't. The only thing that makes it flammable is when it comes straight out of the can with the aersol
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Go outside, spray WD40 on the ground, try to light it, it won't. The only thing that makes it flammable is when it comes straight out of the can with the aersol
Whatever. I've been using WD40 for years starting stupid sh!t like lawnmowers and junk. Works OK for me.
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So my lifetime starter came with a shim kit and a little rod to do it, but is it possible to use that rod with my fly wheel cover? I am no genius but it seems like I can't use it because the cover is in the way. The little manual that comes with the starter says to listen for shimming problems. I don't think I'll be able to hear sh*t with open headers. Anyone have a pic of the bracket that goes on the back?
Also do you think the starter broke because it backfired while cranking or is shimmed incorrectly or both are very possible?
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi59.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg310%2Fkoyota93%2FHoward%2FIMG_2106.jpg&hash=38ae6a6e90c26f3b78a976bec804146045b2c690)
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Whatever. I've been using WD40 for years starting stupid sh!t like lawnmowers and junk. Works OK for me.
Not trying to sound like an ass, sorry. Even what made up wd40 a few years ago is different from todays stuff. It's funny this came up, because I had a bet about this subject 2 weeks ago for $20. I won ;D
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So my lifetime starter came with a shim kit and a little rod to do it, but is it possible to use that rod with my fly wheel cover? I am no genius but it seems like I can't use it because the cover is in the way. The little manual that comes with the starter says to listen for shimming problems. I don't think I'll be able to hear sh*t with open headers. Anyone have a pic of the bracket that goes on the back?
Also do you think the starter broke because it backfired while cranking or is shimmed incorrectly or both are very possible?
I don't know what rod you're talking about. I think they want you to listen for shimming problems while the engine is cranking, your headers will be quiet during cranking. I know I've read that you can put chalk on the flywheel/flexplate teeth and look to see how it's meshing with the starter's teeth but I've never had to do that so I don't know how. Maybe someone will chime in...
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If you not hearing the typical starter grind when first trying to start you'll probably be fine without double checking the clearance.
I don't like using starting fluid (or any other sprays) because they can cause violent detonation that can do damage. Yes I think the backfire is what killed the starter. But it might have been damaged by not having the small support bracket at the motor end of the starter. That much weight trying to bounce around when hitting wakes could crack or break parts.
And HotRod is right about the starter bolts. If you don't have the right bolts you need to get them before installing the new starter.
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Starters nose cones break for: misalignment, not being secured or braced ,wrong type sholdered bolts (GM) , high compression (especially with timing advanced too far,causing "kick back") ,mis routed plug wires etc also "kick back" . Gm starters particularly rebuilts (due to case re -machining) must be checked for starter pinion tooth to ring gear tooth engagment . The little tool they give you is a "guage" designed to be inserted between the pinion tooth and the "crotch" of a pair of ring gear teeth . Trial and error ,shim, shim , remove shim etc etc the "listen" is a pain in the a$$ ,unscientific and can actually cause problems in the process. A loud "clang" on cranking typically signals need for shims because the starter pinion is coming out and "striking" the edge of the ring gear (not to mention bilge sparks !!) , also starters "sticking" engaged need shims or have low battery voltage , high pitched rotational grinding and growling could be due to too much shim (or not enough) or ... the old high pitched GM squeal/grind (pinion is missing engaging the teeth altogether). On Blower motors and very High compression we sometimes crank the motor ,then "throw" the power to it with a seperate switch secondarily . Enough for now heres a pic Hope starter 101 hasn't overwhelmed you. By the way to properly check the depth you need to pull the motor ,then use a pick to physically pull the starter pinion forward to check the engagement ,see pic (shim as neccesary) Tom
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi147.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr319%2Fjetboatperformance%2FMisc%2FResizeofDSC09974.jpg&hash=0fa4d827eea387bd3963067d225d32cd3477ae57)
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Starters nose cones break for: misalignment, not being secured or braced ,wrong type sholdered bolts (GM) , high compression (especially with timing advanced too far,causing "kick back") ,mis routed plug wires etc also "kick back" . Gm starters particularly rebuilts (due to case re -machining) must be checked for starter pinion tooth to ring gear tooth engagment . The little tool they give you is a "guage" designed to be inserted between the pinion tooth and the "crotch" of a pair of ring gear teeth . Trial and error ,shim, shim , remove shim etc etc the "listen" is a pain in the a$$ ,unscientific and can actually cause problems in the process. A loud "clang" on cranking typically signals need for shims because the starter pinion is coming out and "striking" the edge of the ring gear (not to mention bilge sparks !!) , also starters "sticking" engaged need shims or have low battery voltage , high pitched rotational grinding and growling could be due to too much shim (or not enough) or ... the old high pitched GM squeal/grind (pinion is missing engaging the teeth altogether). On Blower motors and very High compression we sometimes crank the motor ,then "throw" the power to it with a seperate switch secondarily . Enough for now heres a pic Hope starter 101 hasn't overwhelmed you. By the way to properly check the depth you need to pull the motor ,then use a pick to physically pull the starter pinion forward to check the engagement ,see pic (shim as neccesary) Tom
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi147.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr319%2Fjetboatperformance%2FMisc%2FResizeofDSC09974.jpg&hash=0fa4d827eea387bd3963067d225d32cd3477ae57)
Thanks for all the responses from everyone.
I put the new one on, and ran into more problems. My buddy had rebuilt my Holley 3310 750 carb. He obviously messed up somewhere because the vent tubes or for marine applications "J" tubes were flowing gas. So I grabbed my buddies old Holley 750 and put that on instead of messing with mine. I got upgraded to mechanical secondaries in the process but lost the electric choke that I don't really need.
So we started it a few times and tried to mess with the water valve for the headers. So the starter did not make any weird sounds while cranking and was working fine. Then on maybe the 7th time starting it. My buddy saw the whole starter jolt. Then the grounding sound started. I thought for sure it was another cracked cone. It would not engage properly after that. We took the starter out and to my surprise it wasn't cracked.
So I think I will find that rear mount. Not sure where to start. The dealer?
I don't have a good way to remove the engine to check for clearance, so I am thinking about drilling a hole in the bellhousing cover to run the little rod/gauge to check for clearance. Any suggestions? I need to have the boat dialed in by tomorrow night to leave at 5 am Sat morning.
I am also having the suspicion that my flywheel mis be off. So after I remove the starter, I will check for that, too.
After the whole starter nightmare, I still need to lay one final piece of fiberglass on the bottom and do some sanding.
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You can try a dealer for that bracket, but you'll probably have to find one in a wrecking yard. The biggest problem is the first time the starter is changed most shade tree mechanics just pitch the little bracket into the trash.
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Thanks for eveyone's help.
Everything is good and running.
After having no luck finding the bracket, I took the Hitachi mini starter off by buddies prerunner and put it on. After bolting it on, we realized it needed to be shimmed away from the flywheel. The starter gear was hitting the flywheel before popping out. My buddy had thrown away the Hitachi shims.
Then we went down to a alternator/starter rebuild place looking for that rear bracket. Left there with a gear reduction starter that the owner guaranteed won't break the cone for $120. Went home and bolted it up. Adjusted the floats on the carb, and now the thing starts immediately.
See you guys at Shell Beach/ Big River tomorrow. I'll be in the brown/ white Howard named Rootbeer Float, along with a white/bronze Miller (Belligerent) and a white/orange/yellow/silver CP.
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I would love to butt in guys, I run a flexplate on all three of our jets, two BBC and one SBC and all three have eaten a starter or three.
The non "back-woods" fix is to run a $350 aluminum flywheel, but my favorite "back woods" fix, make a flat piece of good quality 1/4" aluminum perfectly round with a hole in the middle for the pto and through bolt it to the three holes in the outer perimeter of the flexplate and this will stiffen-up the flywheel and stop breaking parts, but NOT SFI legal...should be good for 6000 rpm though.
Another plus is that wierd "ring" sound goes away 8)
never had an issue in 11 years on a screamin' 355 >:D and the starter is an aluminum POS from PEP boys.
Also theoretically should not effect balance if its symetrical.