SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: enginedoctor on February 11, 2012, 02:20:54 PM
-
I don't recall ever seeing this topic before, could be wrong...
Anyhow Most of us know the benefits of this to gain xtra horse power and it's other advantages.. My question is what do you guys think a full port & polish, port match, int./ex. ,bowl blend,dust chambers etc costs?? And how much time do you think it takes to do a good job on a set of heads??
Just curious to here feed back :thumbup:
-
good subject!in my opinion, any little bit you can get out of an engine is worth it! as far as time it takes that is going to depend on the heads you are working on. and the person doing the work. a couple hours to hell all night.
-
Good topic to start some brain activity... :thumbup:
It is my humble opinion that it really depends on what we are talking about here....
On a four wheel drive vehicle that has a high low range torque requirement for example you would not really polish or port it for the reasons you are
bringing this up, but rather would actually be "dimpled" and sometimes even made to be more disruptive to traditional flows.
For an engine that everything is having to happen at a much higher RPM and flow rate, porting, polishing, blending and even coating (thinking piston tops) makes a pretty big impact when talking
WOT performance and high horsepower expectations..
I did a Toyota 22R inline four cylinder years ago and the combustion chamber was first Extrude honed with the abrasive putty then it was dimpled much like a golf ball. At idle it acted like a diesel engine
making a ridiculous amount of torque. Yet being opened up still performed quite well on the freeway...
I have seen some pretty amazing cylinder head massaging being as my dads machine shop was virtually across the street from Gromm Racing Cylinder Heads. Some of the stuff they were doing was like artwork
polishing the ports to an almost plated like finish.
GT
-
I don't recall ever seeing this topic before, could be wrong...
Anyhow Most of us know the benefits of this to gain xtra horse power and it's other advantages.. My question is what do you guys think a full port & polish, port match, int./ex. ,bowl blend,dust chambers etc costs?? And how much time do you think it takes to do a good job on a set of heads??
Just curious to here feed back :thumbup:
a year ago it was 1k by hand 1250 by cnc then the valve job was another 250.00 and yes flow sheets were provided. this was from charlie evens
-
a year ago it was 1k by hand 1250 by cnc then the valve job was another 250.00 and yes flow sheets were provided. this was from charlie evens
Okay so whe are bak to how much time is involved ralph ;
And not cnc. by hand .. ;D try'in to get people to understand this process, any video's available?
And GT .. not talkin bout toyota's, big hp stuff :)
-
Ralph , $250.00 for a valve job ? You mean just basic v/j yes ? no guides, parts etc?
-
Ralph , $250.00 for a valve job ? You mean just basic v/j yes ? no guides, parts etc?
yes sir, just grind the seats and valves.. you pay for knowledge here, because if the wrong angles are ground you lose air flow. most guys have done this for thousands of hours in conjunction with the flow bench, so they know what works...
oh did i mention that those quotes were for aluminum heads 8) because the iron will cost you more lol lol...
now as Paul Kane has said many times, we are not racing flow benches. so dont get caught up in all that
-
yes sir, just grind the seats and valves.. you pay for knowledge here, because if the wrong angles are ground you lose air flow. most guys have done this for thousands of hours in conjunction with the flow bench, so they know what works...
oh did i mention that those quotes were for aluminum heads 8) because the iron will cost you more lol lol...
now as Paul Kane has said many times, we are not racing flow benches. so dont get caught up in all that
I only got 34 years exp. as a cylinder head specialist... Thanks Ralph . wat u thinkin?? :) Come on down and show me how it's done, seriously... We will have a good time. Please bring Pop's too ;)
-
I only got 34 years exp. as a cylinder head specialist... Thanks Ralph . wat u thinkin?? :) Come on down and show me how it's done, seriously... We will have a good time. Please bring Pop's too ;)
you know shorty, you have forgot more than i will ever know on this subject ;)
-
you know shorty, you have forgot more than i will ever know on this subject ;)
Haha, no Ralph...I meant that you and your POPS know alot bout this topic and that even though I've been doin this along time,technology is always changing and I'd like to learn more bout this subject from all u guys :thumbup: :thumbup:
-
Good topic to start some brain activity... :thumbup:
It is my humble opinion that it really depends on what we are talking about here....
On a four wheel drive vehicle that has a high low range torque requirement for example you would not really polish or port it for the reasons you are
bringing this up, but rather would actually be "dimpled" and sometimes even made to be more disruptive to traditional flows.
For an engine that everything is having to happen at a much higher RPM and flow rate, porting, polishing, blending and even coating (thinking piston tops) makes a pretty big impact when talking
WOT performance and high horsepower expectations..
I did a Toyota 22R inline four cylinder years ago and the combustion chamber was first Extrude honed with the abrasive putty then it was dimpled much like a golf ball. At idle it acted like a diesel engine
making a ridiculous amount of torque. Yet being opened up still performed quite well on the freeway...
I have seen some pretty amazing cylinder head massaging being as my dads machine shop was virtually across the street from Gromm Racing Cylinder Heads. Some of the stuff they were doing was like artwork
polishing the ports to an almost plated like finish.
GT
Nice info GT :thumbup: So how do you feel bout' "Hogging out/ opening up" ports to a larger size?
-
Nice info GT :thumbup: So how do you feel bout' "Hogging out/ opening up" ports to a larger size?
All things being equal I am of the opinion that more is not necessarily better, but more importantly everything needs to be matched to one another.
sort of like hogging out the intakes but not the exhaust....In can't go "in" if it can't get "out" so to speak.
I am a huge fan of polishing and blending on race type stuff for more reasons than I have time to post, but let me just say detonation is a limitation to be dealt with and this is one of the most effective ways to do it.
On another note, blue printing (making each cylinder exactly the same) can make or break a build...
GT
-
All things being equal I am of the opinion that more is not necessarily better, but more importantly everything needs to be matched to one another.
sort of like hogging out the intakes but not the exhaust....In can't go "in" if it can't get "out" so to speak.
I am a huge fan of polishing and blending on race type stuff for more reasons than I have time to post, but let me just say detonation is a limitation to be dealt with and this is one of the most effective ways to do it.
On another note, blue printing (making each cylinder exactly the same) can make or break a build...
GT
I dont follow u on (making each cylinder exactly the same) ?? U refering to the heads ? Also I agree with you, so port matching, polish, and blend, Don't reconfigure the ports correct??
-
Ya SHORTY, didn't ya read Ralph's post LOL
-
Hey Ralph! Evan's Racing... thanx 4 sharin that :thumbup: :thumbup:
-
But did ya notice he called ya shorty like I do??? LOL
-
I dont follow u on (making each cylinder exactly the same) ?? U refering to the heads ? Also I agree with you, so port matching, polish, and blend, Don't reconfigure the ports correct??
Kindof unsure where you're going with this Dave, but No, every port should not flow the same or carry the same charactaristics in almost every application I can think of. You already know this. There's a huge difference between porting and simply "hogging out" existing ports, which is exactly what most CNC operations do. My 429 D2OE's cost me a touch over $1700 to have them manally done, the D3's later, a little south of that as a favour. This is a VERY "per case, instance, brand and application" based question. I also like Ralphs VERY valid point, "We don't race flow benches here".........I'm not a porter or expert, BUT.........
A TON of additional information would be needed for any qualified porter to do his thing. First example, would be Brand. BBC's fire order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 and given that order, I would see more attention to the distant corner intake ports, depending on manifold. I would also see more attention need on the center exhaust ports and header tuning to control the exhaust pulsing. On a BBF, 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8, a very different situation. I can see it being more of a bank to bank issue because the passenger side banks have already fired off 3 cylinders to the drivers side one, before #6 is fired off, and vice versa. Therefore, my mind, and kinda what was done to mine, would tell me that 1 and 5 needed less work on the intake side, more on exhaust, and the real focus point should be on 7-8 on any given head but also relegating those heads to specific Driver or passenger side in that extreme.
This isn't taking into account displacement, what exact heads, etc, etc.........Personally, I see "CNC porting" as more a gimmick than a real life performance improvement. Unless said, reputable, shop does it's "CNC Porting" oh VERY high quality equipment (NOT an old, used Bridgeport) based off measurements from a reputably done and proven set of manually ported heads, and knows exactly how to do this properly using Unigraphics or similar, you'll wind up doing more harm than good, no matter what the port size or flow numbers say. Fast ain't cheap and cheap ain't fast, and again, plug readings alone would help tell the real story as to what was needed an if it worked or not.
In other words, you cannot make a 900 HP 454 BBC using CNC ported peanut heads...........EXCEPT on Ebay.........
Ray
-
Kindof unsure where you're going with this Dave, but No, every port should not flow the same or carry the same charactaristics in almost every application I can think of. You already know this. There's a huge difference between porting and simply "hogging out" existing ports, which is exactly what most CNC operations do. My 429 D2OE's cost me a touch over $1700 to have them manally done, the D3's later, a little south of that as a favour. This is a VERY "per case, instance, brand and application" based question. I also like Ralphs VERY valid point, "We don't race flow benches here".........I'm not a porter or expert, BUT.........
A TON of additional information would be needed for any qualified porter to do his thing. First example, would be Brand. BBC's fire order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 and given that order, I would see more attention to the distant corner intake ports, depending on manifold. I would also see more attention need on the center exhaust ports and header tuning to control the exhaust pulsing. On a BBF, 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8, a very different situation. I can see it being more of a bank to bank issue because the passenger side banks have already fired off 3 cylinders to the drivers side one, before #6 is fired off, and vice versa. Therefore, my mind, and kinda what was done to mine, would tell me that 1 and 5 needed less work on the intake side, more on exhaust, and the real focus point should be on 7-8 on any given head but also relegating those heads to specific Driver or passenger side in that extreme.
This isn't taking into account displacement, what exact heads, etc, etc.........Personally, I see "CNC porting" as more a gimmick than a real life performance improvement. Unless said, reputable, shop does it's "CNC Porting" oh VERY high quality equipment (NOT an old, used Bridgeport) based off measurements from a reputably done and proven set of manually ported heads, and knows exactly how to do this properly using Unigraphics or similar, you'll wind up doing more harm than good, no matter what the port size or flow numbers say. Fast ain't cheap and cheap ain't fast, and again, plug readings alone would help tell the real story as to what was needed an if it worked or not.
In other words, you cannot make a 900 HP 454 BBC using CNC ported peanut heads...........EXCEPT on Ebay.........
Ray
I'm in agreement with you Ray ! Let's narrow this down to a set of BBF heads., that better? I'm jus thinking jus port match, port intakes & ex. /bowl blend /dust chambers & have customer bring in their exhaust n intake manifolds to do this correctly... not even going to valve/seat modification here. I'm trying to keep this simple for everybody to understand.
-
IMHO This porting/ polishing stuff started in 1919 Ray ;)
And the objective here is to simply atomize, increases flow, deal with turbulance. That's it! And the research and developement still goes on....great subject :) jus IMHO
-
I know you know this already Dave but the number that is MOST critical it the balance between intake and exhaust. The more efficiently the charge moves through the cylinder, the more power you make. I don't know shit about any motors that aren't Mopar so I can't help you with any real world experience. Back in the day Mother Mopar (then called Direct Connection) sold $15 templates that let any amatuer with enough guts to do his own at home porting with a factory blueprint. They were very effective but overall Chrysler heads breath pretty good anyway.
Another fun fact: Using the smaller "smog" intake valves 2.09 I think, will actually increase flow efficiency and power over the 2.18s in most cases because the charge scavenges better. :thumbup:
And to answer your question, good quality porting is very labor intensive and $2000 isn't unheard of at all. I think I paid Fumio Fukaya $900 to do a Datsun p/u head back in the 80's but that truck would pull the wheels off the ground an inch or two with 1800 cc.
-
i hate to dissagree but i will, if i paid a good amount of money and my flow sheet had major flow differences in ports i would be upset.. if you look at any good porters flow sheets the ports will be with in a few cfm of each other. the cylynders flow the same, right? so why not the heads? the manifold should be flowed as well.. that would be like an 850 carb on the front and a 750 on the rear of a tunnel ram. to me that dont make sence :o
-
Consider the source Ralph. Ray marches to a different drummer. Have you seen his boats? :screwy:
Sorry Ray, I had to . . .
-
Consider the source Ralph. Ray marches to a different drummer. Have you seen his boats? :screwy:
Sorry Ray, I had to . . .
-
I know you know this already Dave but the number that is MOST critical it the balance between intake and exhaust. The more efficiently the charge moves through the cylinder, the more power you make. I don't know shit about any motors that aren't Mopar so I can't help you with any real world experience. Back in the day Mother Mopar (then called Direct Connection) sold $15 templates that let any amatuer with enough guts to do his own at home porting with a factory blueprint. They were very effective but overall Chrysler heads breath pretty good anyway.
Another fun fact: Using the smaller "smog" intake valves 2.09 I think, will actually increase flow efficiency and power over the 2.18s in most cases because the charge scavenges better. :thumbup:
Yes, I know this... 'In & OUT"...That's the key taught that by Joe Mondello/ n a few gal's :)
And to answer your question, good quality porting is very labor intensive and $2000 isn't unheard of at all. I think I paid Fumio Fukaya $900 to do a Datsun p/u head back in the 80's but that truck would pull the wheels off the ground an inch or two with 1800 cc.
-
Glass cutter I think I screwed up my responce to you, i'm sorry :) i agree with you Sir!
Ralph thought you said flow bench is not the race here :-X
We are trying to optimize flow here, yes ? In & out !!!!! eliminate bumps, stress risers in the quench area and flow throughout the heads right? IMHO.
-
I am the last person to tell you how to port anything but a while back one of the magazines did an article that followed a set of OEM Mopar heads through 7 different stages of being ported with flow bench testing between the steps. There were times when eliminating certain "bumps" was actually bad for power. I believe they said they were either losing "charge" velocity, or that sometimes causing the charge to "swirl" seemed to be good for power too. I think that for most applications, just porting the heads and intake manifold to match each other is nearly the biggest HP gain of all.
It is one very complicated subject to be sure.
-
I am the last person to tell you how to port anything but a while back one of the magazines did an article that followed a set of OEM Mopar heads through 7 different stages of being ported with flow bench testing between the steps. There were times when eliminating certain "bumps" was actually bad for power. I believe they said they were either losing "charge" velocity, or that sometimes causing the charge to "swirl" seemed to be good for power too. I think that for most applications, just porting the heads and intake manifold to match each other is nearly the biggest HP gain of all.
It is one very complicated subject to be sure.
I respect each and every one of you that have opinions on this , ty for sharing :)
-
Basically, you want the flow to act jus like you see it "Swirl" down your toilet, yes? And now I see some guys cutting massive grooves in the intake runners and combustion chambers, dont get that, except fuel puddling up and acting like a blanket . Seems to me like loss of low end power, IDK.
-
But did ya notice he called ya shorty like I do??? LOL
And your point Nancy Boy?
-
Unless one has a flow bench to quantify the changes they're making and dyno to determine what affects those changes have on the engine, I think that you're pissing into the wind. The only things worth doing without the means to test the results are a port match and mild cleanup of obvious casting flaws....even then, you've got no idea what your doing without a means to measure your results.
The correct valve job (which also requires a flow bench and dyno) performed properly (key words) will have a far greater affect on anything than diving into the head with grinders to make it look faster.
-
i hate to dissagree but i will, if i paid a good amount of money and my flow sheet had major flow differences in ports i would be upset.. if you look at any good porters flow sheets the ports will be with in a few cfm of each other. the cylynders flow the same, right? so why not the heads? the manifold should be flowed as well.. that would be like an 850 carb on the front and a 750 on the rear of a tunnel ram. to me that dont make sence :o
RALPH, I miss read Ray's post. I agree with you 100 percent!.... And Ray wat u know that we don't :)
-
There is no single concrete answer.
How much port work costs is not directly proportional to the power gains one might get in return for the work that he paid for, nor is spending an additional 20% on a port job equate to 20% more power than the port job costing 20% less, for example.
The amount if time it takes to port a set of heads will vary by the porting approach deemed most suitable for the intended power output of the engine combination. Depending on particulars that extend above and beyond the cylinder heads themselves, the hours invested in porting heads for a specific engine might be five hours and it might be fifty hours...or however many hours it takes.
A set of cylinder heads with flow numbers greater across the board than the next set of heads does not necessarily mean that a given engine build will make more power with the heads that have the higher flow numbers (all else being the same inside the engine). In fact, the opposite might even be true where the lesser flowing heads are better suited and the engien makes more power. Flow numbers to not automatically equate to horsepower in-and-of themselves.
"Balance between the intake and exhaust" is something that is most accurately handled by valve timing events and ultimately camshaft selection, not porting; let the porting approach and intake/exhaust port characterisitics be executed best as they are fit for the application and then cam accordlingy off those port designs.
With Ford 385 Series heads, it is not always advisable to execute manifold port matches on either the intake side or the exhaust side. Every case is diffierent and often the stock entry and/or exit is preferred. Also 429/460 passenger car heads do not have 4 identical intake runners, they are paired and the more power you are shooting for the more this needs to be addressed accordingly.
LO
-
Thank's for sharing Lakes :thumbup:
I figured aside from Dr. Denny and Joe Mondello , that you would have the correct answers Sir :)