SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: beerjet on December 22, 2007, 10:20:31 AM
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In all of my dreaming that I do throughout the day , one of them is to buy a new rotating assembly . I know eagle and scat have a pretty good set-up for a 496 and with I'm tryin to do , it should be more than enough . Which pistons are better and why are the other crap ?
-beerjet-
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Good questions Omar, i have spent many days wondering the same thing. Trying to build this motor and doing it the right way ;)
2sav
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I just posted something on another thread about this. I was gonna buy a rotating assy. that had Scat forged crank, scat h beams and Probe pistons. Then I got flamed on the probe pistons and people were telling me they were junk and use em as ashtrays. Of course I got no actaul reason why they were junk which is the norm. I have never heard a bad thing about SRP which is at a good cost.
I just bought a Ohio forged Stroker Crank for $375 on there blowout.
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MAHLE pistons are new to me and I've always seen them coated . I've seen them in some crate racing engines so I cant imagine a company with a reputation in racing motors putting shit in there products . I'm just here to learn though sooooo.....
-beerjet-
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Yea probe= no bueno. The last shop I was at, my boss ordered $10,000 worth of custom pistons(about 300 sets) of three different sizes from Probe. Well after I started balancing the first set, I realized they were far away in weight from each other, so I shuffled them up with other pistons to find the best similar weight piston sets. Then I balanced them all, but the next problem was some of them were much different size than others, between 1-1.5 thousandths. So that was a new issue. But we ended up sending 2/3 of them back due to where the spiral locks go in, the wall between the lock and the outside of the piston was very thin, about 30 thousands, and this was after all the shuffling and balancing!
Ok so that is my Probe horror story ;)
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If I could afford it I would buy Crower Rods and cranks, and diamond pistons ;D
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My .02
Ditto on ditching the Probes
Mahle pistons been used in hi perf motorcycles for years. Also many OEM
Double check every measurement on a Scat crank. Strong but iffy on quality contol.
Eagle= no worries
Listen to your bro's . . . if you are gonna build a Ford, talk to Lakes Only up noth a bit.
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Great im glad i didnt send off payment for them Probes ??? What about TRW pistons that was my next choice ;)
2sav
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I used those in my Jeep motor . I've always liked them .
-beerjet-
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I used those in my Jeep motor . I've always liked them .
-beerjet-
i have the je srp's in my motor no probs, although through the years pops has used trw's venolia and so on, as long as they are forged and checked as every part in your motor before installation i dont see the problem.
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Just checked out the SRP's over at Jeg's, looks like a good price $519 and it say's excellent for boats ;D
Thats the shit im talking about , good info ;) Its like a big neon sign, BUY ME im the one you want >:D
Soooooooooo...... any bad things to say about these now ???
2sav
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SRP's can be found for $450 ish if you look around.
If you want the best look at Aries,Diamond,JE,Ross etc.
The Company who owns Clevite owns Mahle and I have heard good things and I like the thought of coating on them.
Nothing bad to be said about the SRP's from everyone I have talked to. The JE will have a little more detail work and a made from a better aluminum but we will never tell the difference.
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Personally I've had good success with KB forged. The valve reliefs are really deep and they can handle quite a bit of NOS. The hyper KB's hold up well except under detonation, they even have a carbon gap between the top and 2nd ring which really aids in the lifespan.
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Personally I've had good success with KB forged. The valve reliefs are really deep and they can handle quite a bit of NOS. The hyper KB's hold up well except under detonation, they even have a carbon gap between the top and 2nd ring which really aids in the lifespan.
Ran these in two 340's. Very nice fitment and quality :D
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SRP's can be found for $450 ish if you look around.
If you want the best look at Aries,Diamond,JE,Ross etc.
The Company who owns Clevite owns Mahle and I have heard good things and I like the thought of coating on them.
Nothing bad to be said about the SRP's from everyone I have talked to. The JE will have a little more detail work and a made from a better aluminum but we will never tell the difference.
mine were really pretty until i started at them with some 1500 wet and dry :o to get all the sharp edges off
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Ok now i have a question on the TRW(speed pro) pistons ;D
These Power Forged pistons from Speed-Pro are designed to fit tight, thanks to a special aluminum alloy that doesn't expand as much as other alloys. They'll provide the stability and ring control that you need, plus the strength that you want. Speed-Pro pistons also feature ribbed skirts for better oil retention and even include new wrist pins!
so my question is, do you still have to give marine clearances for the pistons since they say they dont expand as much ???
2sav
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Speedpro's were the shit back in the 90's - TRW bought them out.
They were very strong, too bad they weighed a ton. Pistons wouldn't break but the rod bolts sure would! Make sure the weight of the pistons doesn't exceed your available bobweight, and use ARP rod bolts!
You as the user going into a boat, shouldn't worry too much about clearances - if you run them big you won't seaze a piston in the bore, and in a boat, you arn't going to hear the minor piston slapping for that 60 seconds when dead cold. The danger with huge clearances is when you try to drive in the really cold weather and the piston is cold - lots of noise...
Remember it's the rings that seal, not the pistons..
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Ok now i have a question on the TRW(speed pro) pistons ;D
These Power Forged pistons from Speed-Pro are designed to fit tight, thanks to a special aluminum alloy that doesn't expand as much as other alloys. They'll provide the stability and ring control that you need, plus the strength that you want. Speed-Pro pistons also feature ribbed skirts for better oil retention and even include new wrist pins!
so my question is, do you still have to give marine clearances for the pistons since they say they dont expand as much ???
2sav
2sav, opinions are like assholes everybody has one, talk to the guy who is building your engine and go with that........
but if you want an opinion here it is, go with what speed pro recomends. i have no experience with them so i'm just another asshole. ;D
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Runnin' TRW L2465F-030 pistons...haven't had a problem...yet (knock on wood :D)
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Well thanks for everyone's opinion ;D It seems no matter what is brought to the table someone has had neg experience with it, Its like comparing Ford with Chevy you just cant win :o
But for the price im getting these Probes for, i cant pass it up, and my engine builder is happy with the Probes also. I am getting ready to send the payment off so this was a last minute wait am i fucking up again ??? cause i seem to do that alot lately ;D
2sav
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Ok now i have a question on the TRW(speed pro) pistons ;D
so my question is, do you still have to give marine clearances for the pistons since they say they dont expand as much ???
2sav
Yes ! Ice cold block and bloody hot slugs !
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Nothing wrong with probes, I know a lot of guys with SB fords running them.
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Well thanks for everyone's opinion ;D It seems no matter what is brought to the table someone has had neg experience with it, Its like comparing Ford with Chevy you just cant win :o
But for the price im getting these Probes for, i cant pass it up, and my engine builder is happy with the Probes also. I am getting ready to send the payment off so this was a last minute wait am i ******* up again ??? cause i seem to do that alot lately ;D
2sav
Steve,
In my last Challenger I ran Probe forged pistons and they measured out good, not great, but good. Then again that's in a 440 not a 460. The only reason I stay away from Probe's now is I don't like chancin stuff after the week ordeal I went through with all those probe sets, and those we're for Ford y-blocks.
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Well you know me, if it dont work. Ebay it :o
2sav ;D
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as long as your engine builder is happy, i think your ok ;)
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Over the years I've learned - Clean up the block to the smallest clean up size it will go, order and recieve your pistons, then hone the block to fit the pistons. That way it really doesn't matter what the actual .000 measurement is, you will be right on with the right clearances.
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mine were really pretty until i started at them with some 1500 wet and dry :o to get all the sharp edges off
Ralph is correct I meant as far as performance goes on our jets we would not see a huge diff. between a JE and a SRP. I would detail the SRP's as well.
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IMO stay away from hyperutectic, cast is better, for the cost TRW forged are hard to beat.
Ralph I agree...
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I ALWAYS USE VENOLIA PISTONS IN EVERYTHING BUT THEN AGAIN IT HELPS THAT MY GIRLFRIENDS FAMILY OWNS VENOLIA. OR I MIGHT BE ABLE TO GET A GOODGUY PRICE ON ARIES PISTONS OUR CREWCHIEF IS IN CHARGE OF SALES OVER THERE. AND OMAR IF YOU DO DECIDE TO GO WITH SCAT LET ME KNOW AND I CAN SEE WHAT KIND OF PRICE I CAN GET. WE KNOW THE OWNER AND THEY THEY BUY ALOT OF PRODUCT FROM US.
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The Mach 1 came with a 454 when I bought it. It only has 7 pistons in it. The 8th piston dis-integrated. The engine builder said it dis-integrated because it was a hyperneumatic (sp?) piston. ??? The engine had 14 hours on it since being built.
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My Hypereutectic pistons did the same thing, I had 3 that were coming apart. "Luckily" I spun a bearing and found the problem before it did any real damage.
Now I have forged pistons. So far so good.
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Thanks Beerjet ;)
This thread has helped me find my pistons. Yeah i was going to go as cheap as i can so i can save $$ and put it into something else for the boat. But i kept hearing these words that were posted here in another thread. ( Cheap isnt good and good isnt cheap) I think it was Ralph. But i only want to do it one time. My goal is for a turn key boat not a mechanics speacial :o Also want to give thanks to the people who have given me good advice.
Yes i have asked alot of questions and have annoyed a few doing so but hey its been ten years since my last build. never did any performance builds, mainly just stock with a nice cam.
I always remember these words, if you dont know just ask. sooooo......... please bare with me cause im gonna be asking a whole lot more??????????? ;D
2sav >:D
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There is nothing inherently wrong or better with a hyper, cast or forged pistons in a good running / tuned engine.
The issue becomes when you add nitrous (heat) or too much timing (pinging).
Hypers can't handle prolonged detonation - they shatter.
Cast can't handle excessive heat like you would find on a 400 shot.
Forged can handle both without damage (to a point), at least a lot more than either of the other ones can.
Saying that - I'm running hypers on my new build.
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There is nothing inherently wrong or better with a hyper, cast or forged pistons in a good running / tuned engine.
The issue becomes when you add nitrous (heat) or too much timing (pinging).
Hypers can't handle prolonged detonation - they shatter.
Cast can't handle excessive heat like you would find on a 400 shot.
Forged can handle both without damage (to a point), at least a lot more than either of the other ones can.
Saying that - I'm running hypers on my new build.
so in short, if you cant tune an engine without a weather station, ;) get forged pistons
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so in short, if you cant tune an engine without a weather station, ;) get forged pistons
The standard TRW forged heavy slugs are very good and durable piston.
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so in short, if you cant tune an engine without a weather station, ;) get forged pistons
Yep, forged are the way to go. This build is exceptionally low buck we'll see how it all turns out. If it doesn't work and I shatter a piston, I'm out the $267 I paid for the set....
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Does anyone know anything about the Keith Black forged pistons?
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Does anyone know anything about the Keith Black forged pistons?
Yes, that is what I run in my 528. DEEP valve reliefs, really nice skirts. Quality piston.
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Yep, forged are the way to go. This build is exceptionally low buck we'll see how it all turns out. If it doesn't work and I shatter a piston, I'm out the $267 I paid for the set....
Well i didnt go with the Probes, i found these for a hundred bucks less. Believe me a hundred bucks right now is like a thousand later, its a big savings for me.
These are TRW ( Speed Pro) 060 over domes ;D Yes they are Forged! so now i have a complete rotating assembly ready for the machine shop :) Im starting to believe im gonna make it by summer, so all you fuggers better be ready for the sav ;D
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd269%2F2savage4you%2Fspeedpro.jpg&hash=3323c917d610c03b01af06b2156a3e501ecac9e7)
2sav
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Yes, that is what I run in my 528. DEEP valve reliefs, really nice skirts. Quality piston.
Well, my builder told me he used the flat tops and they did look like a deep valve relief in them. I did a quick search on Summit and they are not cheap pistons.
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Those will treat you well for years
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We build 20 to 30 motors a year and use alot KBs and Speed Pro's hypers & forged (almost never cast) ,we also are a JE/SRP dealer and build alot of motors with them as well Both these companies have outstanding customer service! Jerry at KB is "da Bomb" IMO always had good luck with them just my 02 Tom
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Well that makes me feel better about what was done to this motor. Thanks guys - Greg