SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: IRRebel on April 30, 2010, 12:25:05 PM
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OK, so most by now have seen the Pickle Boat. But it has developed a problem that seems to come and go as it wishes.
At a Bartlett lake gathering in February, it ran fine all day. Could hold 5500 RPM no problem. RJ drove it towards the main part of the lake late in the day, and it seemed to run out of gas. I jumped in the seat, got it fired, and could limp it in at about 1700 rpm. Anything above that it'd die out. Had RJ watch the fuel pressure guage, it never moved. I thought low on fuel. After I got it home, Nope! 1/2 tanks.
Got home, I have the corner on the Holley marine 750 Carb market I think, had another rebuilt for it. Seemed to cure it. At Temple Bar, ran fine when Nordie and I were running until late in the day on saturday when we all bailed due to weather, and she would NOT sustain 3500 rpm. Didn't make RJ do the fuel pressure guage thing then, but next day, same issue, try and press it above 3000-3500 and it acted like it was out of gas.
We checked both fuel filters (In fact Nordie and Brandon looked at mine at Temple). Problems not there.
Guess we'll wait til the new Holley Red shows up and the fresh 850 I dropped off for rebuild gets installed to see. But I'm perplexed, any simple thing I'm mising here guys?!
Ray
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pinched or partially blocked fuel line?
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Try checking the plugs, wires,cap, rotor, timing, box, coil.
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Try checking the plugs, wires,cap, rotor, timing, box, coil.
Good Idea, actually. It's an HEI unit on this one, (Not a fan) so the cap would take care of the coil as well. I'll do that.
Fuel lines are braided stainless, and seem very solid. Just think I'm missing something rediculously simple here.
Ray
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Yea I f-n hate it when that happens. its always something simple and stupid. you said the fuel pressure gauge didn't move. what pressure are you running. dose not really matter if your using an stuff or stainless and you have pressure The first thing i think of is the carb or ignition. where is the pressure gauge located and is it fairly new? I know chevys love a lot of advance to start with and more the higher the rpm. one other thing. how old is the fuel in your tanks?
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Plugged pickup in tank? Did it happen on one or both tanks?
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Fuel pressure holds rock steady at 5 psi. Draws from both tanks simultaneously, so to Isolate it at Bartlett, thinking it was a pickup tube cracked or whatever, put a pair of vise grips on on line. Same problem, fuel pressure fine. Clamped off the other line, same problem, fuel pressure fine. Fresh gas in it. It's got me! Gonna pick up a cap/coil/rotor tomorrow and see if that helps. Then head to the lake maybe tuesday with a spare carb and pump JIC. It did backfire pretty hard warming up at Temple, mighta popped the power valve or circuit I suppose, hence the 850, but it ran fine most of the day after that.
You're right! I HATE these kinda gemlins! Prolly should take my Mag out there too JIC, :screwy:
Ray
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OK, so most by now have seen the Pickle Boat. But it has developed a problem that seems to come and go as it wishes.
At a Bartlett lake gathering in February, it ran fine all day. Could hold 5500 RPM no problem. RJ drove it towards the main part of the lake late in the day, and it seemed to run out of gas. I jumped in the seat, got it fired, and could limp it in at about 1700 rpm. Anything above that it'd die out. Had RJ watch the fuel pressure guage, it never moved. I thought low on fuel. After I got it home, Nope! 1/2 tanks.
Got home, I have the corner on the Holley marine 750 Carb market I think, had another rebuilt for it. Seemed to cure it. At Temple Bar, ran fine when Nordie and I were running until late in the day on saturday when we all bailed due to weather, and she would NOT sustain 3500 rpm. Didn't make RJ do the fuel pressure guage thing then, but next day, same issue, try and press it above 3000-3500 and it acted like it was out of gas.
We checked both fuel filters (In fact Nordie and Brandon looked at mine at Temple). Problems not there.
Guess we'll wait til the new Holley Red shows up and the fresh 850 I dropped off for rebuild gets installed to see. But I'm perplexed, any simple thing I'm mising here guys?!
Ray
Ray,
I am making an assumption here...Were the tanks at half again????
If so, you have a leak at the pick up one of the tanks and it's sucking air. I am not just blowing it out of my ass, the race boat when new absolutely kicked my ass for two months... :mad: Ultimately found a hairline crack in the pickup tube on the starboard tank right at the weld, ours was a half inch aluminum tubing....
We re welded the pickup (actually made a new one) but only after going nuts and coming up with the baddest fuel system ever put in a boat....
Good luck chasing that one down...
GT
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Be strange to have BOTH pickup tubes f-ed up, but a possibility, I suppose.
Honestly though, both tanks are near full (Out of the boat right now for new carpet and fill hoses), and when this happened at Temple, I filled the boat up the next morning, same problem as soon as we left the NWZ. Ran fine, but was being really outrun by Nordie and Brandon. Hell Chromey was faster than I was, lol. Still a nice ride! No offense Chromey, ;D
Probably should just pull them and see while they're out. Thanks Glenn! :thumbup:
Ray
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Personal Message (Online)
Re: Electric Fuel Pump Issues?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2010, 10:39:49 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote
Quote from: IRRebel on April 30, 2010, 12:25:05 PM
OK, so most by now have seen the Pickle Boat. But it has developed a problem that seems to come and go as it wishes.
At a Bartlett lake gathering in February, it ran fine all day. Could hold 5500 RPM no problem. RJ drove it towards the main part of the lake late in the day, and it seemed to run out of gas. I jumped in the seat, got it fired, and could limp it in at about 1700 rpm. Anything above that it'd die out. Had RJ watch the fuel pressure guage, it never moved. I thought low on fuel. After I got it home, Nope! 1/2 tanks.
Got home, I have the corner on the Holley marine 750 Carb market I think, had another rebuilt for it. Seemed to cure it. At Temple Bar, ran fine when Nordie and I were running until late in the day on saturday when we all bailed due to weather, and she would NOT sustain 3500 rpm. Didn't make RJ do the fuel pressure guage thing then, but next day, same issue, try and press it above 3000-3500 and it acted like it was out of gas.
We checked both fuel filters (In fact Nordie and Brandon looked at mine at Temple). Problems not there.
Guess we'll wait til the new Holley Red shows up and the fresh 850 I dropped off for rebuild gets installed to see. But I'm perplexed, any simple thing I'm mising here guys?!
Ray
Ray,
I am making an assumption here...Were the tanks at half again?Huh?
If so, you have a leak at the pick up one of the tanks and it's sucking air. I am not just blowing it out of my ass, the race boat when new absolutely kicked my ass for two months... Mad Ultimately found a hairline crack in the pickup tube on the starboard tank right at the weld, ours was a half inch aluminum tubing....
We re welded the pickup (actually made a new one) but only after going nuts and coming up with the baddest fuel system ever put in a boat....
Good luck chasing that one down...
GT
Right there with you GT. Ive gone through my fuel system twice. the second time I had to do a balance hose in between both tanks because of the efi. the fuel pump liked to draw from the closest tank and when one tank would run dry the boat would shut down rite away, "electric fuel pumps don't like to suck they like to push" for the most part. also the return lines were not returning fuel evenly. Now I'm thinking of switching to E85 fuel, I'll have to change the injectors and a few lines. :banghead: but will be easy and save me a lot of $$ in fuel.
IRRebel If you don't figure it out with what your doing I'll pull my hair out for you.lol I know how it feels. Also checking all those things, you may find a issue you didn't know about and save a prob down the road. there's been a few times where I had a problem and when I was trouble shooting I found other potential problems. It's good to know every square inch of your boat anyway so when something goes wrong you have a head start of where to look-check.
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Which is why I tore the tanks clear out. Wanted to do the carpet anyway. Gonna pull all the hoses and pressure check them under water, could be a loose AN fitting, check the pickup tubes same way. then it's reduced to the pump, regulator, carb or ignition........right?
Ray
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Well I'm going to pressure test every piece and connection on both my tanks prior to installation now after reading this thread. I don't want this problem, sounds like that may cause me to break things, Like putting tools though closed windows and kicking garbage cans. :) ;) ... Roy
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Which is why I tore the tanks clear out. Wanted to do the carpet anyway. Gonna pull all the hoses and pressure check them under water, could be a loose AN fitting, check the pickup tubes same way. then it's reduced to the pump, regulator, carb or ignition........right?
Ray
Yup. check it all but I would think since you have pressure that your pump and reg would be ok but you never know, with my kind of luck it would be all of the above lol. When I pulled my tanks for the first time it was a joke. The pick ups were rusted bad. The pick up hole was the size of a small coffee straw. the tank grounds, (witch you should do if not already) were fried and pulled out of the connectors. the sender was destroyed due to corrosion and rust, and the the fiberglass saddle's were cracked and needed to be beefed up. They were not vented but only through the gas cap's, I would also check if I were in your shoes. Man they were a mess and no way in hell capable for supporting the new motor. That ended up being just a little more work than expected. And $$$
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Tanks are not vented, only through the caps. Ran the boat with flip tops open.....same issue, lol. No grounds either, but no sending units in them either. Very small tanks too, only 10 gallons each. Strange boat. Almost seems it was intended as a race hull, they didn't make it very long, and it is pretty light.
We'll see what Tuesdays or Sundays tests bring with it, lol, I really wanna bring it to Blythe! :banghead:
Ray
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Tanks are not vented, only through the caps. Ran the boat with flip tops open.....same issue, lol. No grounds either, but no sending units in them either. Very small tanks too, only 10 gallons each. Strange boat. Almost seems it was intended as a race hull, they didn't make it very long, and it is pretty light.
We'll see what Tuesdays or Sundays tests bring with it, lol, I really wanna bring it to Blythe! :banghead:
Ray
Ray,
Ground those puppies and the filler necks pronto!
Static discharge is a huge issue in a fiberglass boat, especially in the freaken desert LOL...
Run a ground wire of like a 14 gauge from the tanks to the filler necks and to a good known ground....The engine block works for me, I would go toward the battery, not the dash...
We don't want to see video of another Boat-B-Que.
GT
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Check! ;) I'm on it Boss! Can't put them back in 'til carpet gets here now.......but....awww hell, they're aluminum, no sparks drilling right????
Now I am Sceeeeeeered! You mean to tell me that COULD have been the reason for the Beezer-B-Que?
Ray
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Check! ;) I'm on it Boss! Can't put them back in 'til carpet gets here now.......but....awww hell, they're aluminum, no sparks drilling right????
Now I am Sceeeeeeered! You mean to tell me that COULD have been the reason for the Beezer-B-Que?
Ray
I would go out on a limb and say the Beezer probably had a catastrophic electrical failure, or fuel leak, especially given how quickly she got engulfed...
Static discharge could start a fire or explosion in low humidity or during an electrical storm...They say also while refueling, but I personally have never heard of any such stories of a problem then...
I do know for a fact that after 1980 it was made a USCG rule. It probably was made a rule/law because of all the electrical fuel gauges being installed in new boats, but I say ground them...Especially with your bonfire skills....Better safe then sorry...
I have heard a story where a boat in storage simply spontaneously combusted, the reason they said it was not electrical was because there was no battery in the boat when it caught fire....video surveillance showed no one was near the boat when it caught fire, it simply erupted in flames during a heat wave... :screwy:
GT
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You mean to tell me that COULD have been the reason for the Beezer-B-Que?
Ray
I'm afraid to ask?
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Don't be afraid to ask! My second jet boat........Lessons learned from THAT ordeal.........
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Ray
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Could be a hot fuel problem, thats why a fuel return system eliminates these problems. Much easier on the pump or pumps keep a constant fuel pressure and cool.
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Could be a hot fuel problem, thats why a fuel return system eliminates these problems. Much easier on the pump or pumps keep a constant fuel pressure and cool.
Please explain this. I have been thinking the same thing since I bought the freakin boat. The pump runs constantly. Waiting on carpet, so tanks are still out and there are two plugged up bungs on the top front of the tanks. I already put a couple AN fittings in them (They will be needed for the Sewer Pickles new engine eventually as return lines). I suppose I could just rig them as return lines now instead of a really long balance line.
Awwww this crap just got complicated......... :banghead:
Ray
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just a dumb question do you have breathers on the tanks or are they plugged?
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No breathers, just breath through the fills I assume.
Ray
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my bike had a clogged breather once and it wouldnt get enought fuel to run over an idle? idk if it could be the same tho
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my bike had a clogged breather once and it wouldnt get enought fuel to run over an idle? idk if it could be the same tho
Nah, not this time, read above and you'll see I tried running it with the fuel fills wide open............. :sly:
Brad and Marc made a comment when I made passes by them Friday Night at Mead (Back in March) that I had a helluva miss. In the middle of carpet right now, next day off is Sunday, so we'll see. All the hoses, pickup tubes checked out fine. New coil, cap, rotor installed, taking a fresh 850 along and a brand new Holley Red Marine......Gawd I HATE electric fuel pumps....(Only meant for the 1/4 mile guys anyway)...Old mechanicals werked just fine for 70+ years, why reinvent the wheel?
If this don't work, ordering a Clay Smith mechanical and callin it done......New engine for this sled's gonna be a different story, but gotta get through the next month or so with it.......For it's future owners sake!
Ray
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Ya it could be the impeller in the fuel pump is clogged or worn not enough volume but good pressure could be the floats are set to low and the pump wont keep up to the need 4 fuel
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I have been running a fuel return system for years. Go to Century Performance .com he has a great article of how too and benefits.
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Well, as an update. Pulled and drained both tanks. Had them pressure checked, they're OK. Pressure checked tohe pickup tubes and all fuel lines, they're fine. Replaced the faulty filler neck hoses that were a serious gas leak on the port side.
Shoulda taken a pic of all the oil that was under the rotor in the ignition. Changed out the cap/coil/rotor (HEI unit), and dizzy was full of oil! Cleaned it all out, coil looked pretty bad. Is there oil in these HEI coils? If so, problem I think found, if not, Hello new dizzy!!
Starts up and runs much better than it did. We'll find out this weekend if the problem is solved. I'm leaving the old pump in place, bringing the new one along JIC, but I don't think that's the issue.
Anyone got a good BBC Unilite? ;)
Ray
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Is there oil in these HEI coils? If so, problem I think found, if not, Hello new dizzy!!
Ray
The HEI coils are epoxy filled and prone to failure.
Here's what my friend Dave Ray http://www.davessmallbodyheis.com/ (http://www.davessmallbodyheis.com/) has to say "Whenever I do a large cap HEI, I ALWAYS remove the coil in cap coil, and install a remote, round oil filled coil, just saves a lot of problems from that heating device on the top of the distributor jokingly referred to as a coil. This removes a lot of under cap temperature, and usually, stops the coil/module failures in their tracks.
I just saw a situation I have never seen before in an HEI module, it would drive the scope in my distributor machine fine, made excellent pattern, but wouldn't drive the coil to make a spark. I have not seen that happen before, partially failed module."
Here's the set up I run, no problems so far (knock on wood)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-3748201/ (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-3748201/)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-29440/ (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-29440/)
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Hence why I dislike HEI units. Hopefully all runs well and the pump is fine. It seems to be, still holds pressure just fine. We'll see what it does under load........ :sly:
Ray
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Shoulda taken a pic of all the oil that was under the rotor in the ignition.
This may have been the problem in the first place ;)
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Yeah I know. Wasn't that excessive, but enough to let me know the dizzy probably needs replacin'. Gonna take a mag with me anyway, JIC. (Only other BBC dizzy I own).
Ray
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I know a guy with a dizzy im not sure on the make or model but can find out if needed
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Well, seems MUCH better. Found out some things here yesterday with it. I think Skip mighta nailed it that it needs a pressure regulator. The problem persists now ONLY when you lift! Some pics will pop up of N8 and I racing , well more like N8 repeatedly handing me my ass, but was fun and my intention was to run the dog piss out of it and see where the problem lies. (Which we did! Ralph said it sounded like we were trying to break 'em, I actually drove through N8's roost at one point, THAT HURTS!!!! )
Come out of the gate with your hair on fire, hits 4700 RPM (New tach), will stay there all day if you let it with some lil hiccups and sputtering sometimes. Lift AT ALL, you'll never get it above 3000-3500 without it dying. Stop, idle it or just float it a few minutes, flatfoot it again, will hold 4700 again all day long.
Ralphs answer, "Then don't lift Dummy!"
Ray