SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: Ultra460 on June 14, 2009, 06:29:39 PM
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For all those who have been watching my ongoing saga with fuel delivery issues here is the latest update. I checked all my hoses, fuel water seperator, fuel tank selector switch for restrictions and every thing was fine.
Clay smith pretty much told me that in order for his pump to work properly in my boat that I would need to upgrade to 1/2" I.D. hose and or run braided lines. Don't really want to do either of those at this time so I ordered an electric fuel pump to try out. I ordered the Jegs equivelent of a holley blue (holley only offered a 30 day warranty and jegs offered 1 year). Jegs told me it was bassically the same as the holley blue without the holley sticker on it.
I plumbed in the pump and mounted it as low as possible (inlet and outlet are at least 2-3" lower than the bottom of the fuel tanks). Took it out to the lake today and the pressure seemed to be better from what I noticed. Before the regulator it was about 11psi and after it was 6.
Now onto the new problem. As I was idleing into a no wake zone area in a cove the fuel pump decided to quit working. :banghead: It was still running but was not providing any pressure and was very HOT. After I let it cool down for about 20 minutes with the hatch open it started rite up and was fine. I hurried my ass back to the dock through huricane like conditions praying the damn pump didn't quite again. :mad:
So did I get tricked into buying a shit pump or is this a common problem with electric pumps with an engine hatch??? Too much heat at low speeds??? I'm really at the end of my rope on this one... Running out of ideas... Seemed to have possibly fixed one problem (don't really know for sure cause I didn't have much time to play with it) and created another.
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I think you need to ask yourself some questions...what are you trying to achieve? What pressure makes you feel comfortable? I'm perfectly happy at my 4-6 psi I get! I run a 429 with 800 holley dp...it was starving for fuel on Saturday and I never felt the secondaries...pulled into the marina set floats and the boat ran totally different...how many ponies does your motor make? With the regulator I would imagine 5 psi would suit you just fine! Slap a mechanical pump in it and stop looking at the guage if it wasn't broke don't fix it!
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I'm running a clay smith mech. pump..didn't know they made an elec. In any case..is you're pump mounted lower than your tank?, Electric pumps don't pull to well. What kind of fuel tanks are we talkin about here??
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I think you need to sell the boat!
J/K!!
Sounds like you do NOT have the luck of the Irish! I'd say a bad pump, initially. Enclosed engine bay should have no effect on it. (GM has been running electric pumps IN the bottom of the gas tanks for over 20 years now! can't get more enclosed than that! But given your previous problems, that ain't it I don't beleive.
Now that my lil brain stirs a bit, the pump could be overheating because of the same issues that were causing the mechanical problems. It's werkin too hard to get fuel and kicked out a thermal. I still think you're gonna find a clogged or bent and kinked line either in the tanks or nearby. Possibly a clogged up tank pickup, or just a mass of gunk in the bottom of the tanks. Doesn't take much!
Did you try what Terry told you? Get a five gallon can of gas and run a hose from the inlet side of the pump into the gas can? Then work backwards by including the tank selector inline, then one tank, then the other.
I whole heartedly beleive there's some sort of clog there somewhere. Can't have 3 pumps now (I think if I remember right) all with similar issues!
Ray
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Are you running a fuel pump relay? or is it wired straight to the battery?
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Ever drank a soda with a cracked straw?
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Sounds like vapor lock
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Good one Nordie! Yeah, a cracked hardline somewhere. (Could be the pickup line inside the tank even, sounds like the problem might have occurred after burning off a bit of fuel) Obviously somewhere along the line my blue, well now submarine, developed a crack in tanks!
Steve might be onto something also, open up your fuel fills and see if that cures it! (Don't smoke and drive the boat then, I dun wanna see any more pictures or videos like that ever again!)
All in all, the problem ain't the pump pumpkin!
Ray
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I vote for a restricted or cracked pickup tube(s) too. No matter what pump you try, you problably will have the same problem. I removed my tanks and made large pickups. I have a post somewhere
where I documented it with pics. Found it.
http://www.socaljetboats.com/index.php?topic=3398.0
T.J.
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I think you need to sell the boat!
I think you have the rite answer! I'm tired of dickin around with this thing... It's not even fun anymore. :screwy:
The Clay Smith pump was a mechanical and with that pump I was having pressure issues. 6 psi when it was cold and when it warmed up it was only 3-4 psi. I couldn't get the plugs to richen up at all they were pure white like brand new. Went up 8 jet sizes and no change. That's where the issue started. If the plugs looked good and the boat ran good I wouldn't really care what the gauge said.
With the new electric pump which is ran through a relay I didn't really get to mess with it much. When the thing quit working I was pissed and just wanted to get home. The pressure seemed to be ok I only really checked once as soon as I left the marina, it was 11 psi before the reg and 6 after. Then when I got to the cove/no wake zone and idled for about 10min trying to find a nice sandy spot it quit working. Like I said it was still making noise (not as loud as when it's working properly) it just wasn't pumping, had no fuel pressure at all ZERO... After it cooled off for about 20 minutes it starting working again. I shut the hatch and got the F back to the dock. It ran fine all the way back to the dock.
The tank fuel pickups are the only things I haven't checked although I don't see how they would cause me an intermitent problem like today.
Thanks for the ideas guys.
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that sounds like a vapor lock
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Vapor lock sounds like a good possibility too! I think your getting close on finding your problem
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If the carb vapor locks why would that effect the fuel pressure before and after the regulator :sly:
I agree with the rest though, either the vents on the tanks (can't think they would both be bad) the pickups (again two bad one's)? or crap in the line that joins the two tanks together. (would make more sense)
If there is something floating around in the line it wouldn't allways have to be sealing off the line.
I would open every fitting I could to check it out.
Good luck, I hope you find something
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If the carb vapor locks why would that effect the fuel pressure before and after the regulator :sly:
No fuel no presure
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Ultra, I know you said you don't want to do it but you have too bro, even Clay Smith said you need 1/2 hose. The electric fuel pump idea would have just been a bandaid. Think about it like this. If the Mechanical pump could make 6psi at idle (not under a load) then it can under a load with larger hoses.
I am telling you I just got finished with this same goose chase on my boat and it was an easy fix. Start by selling that electric pump to one of your buddies and go by some 1/2 fuel line and re-plumb that thing with the mechanical pump and watch the problem go away.
From what I was told the 3/8 lines are sometimes not large enough to allow and sustain a good fuel flow. I know it seems like a lot of work but it was not that hard to replace all the lines on my boat, and the hose itself was only like $60.
I really think it would be cheap insurance before you go and pull the tanks to check the pick-ups.
Good luck!
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ok i dont know if i should disclose this but my boat has 3/8 lines to the tank switch and to the filter then -6 to the pump (clay smith) -10 to the splitter and -8 to the two dominators. Plugs run coco brown w/ 8 #99 jets and four 50cc squirter pumps. I know it SHOULD be -8 from the pump back but thats the way i got it and it works for me Sooo....
I cant remember which boats it was but when I worked at the marina last summer one of the kinds of boats was prone to vapor lock, we would disconnect the fuel line and run a little fuel into a container and away they went.
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ok i dont know if i should disclose this but my boat has 3/8 lines to the tank switch and to the filter then -6 to the pump (clay smith) -10 to the splitter and -8 to the two dominators. Plugs run coco brown w/ 8 #99 jets and four 50cc squirter pumps. I know it SHOULD be -8 from the pump back but thats the way i got it and it works for me Sooo....
I cant remember which boats it was but when I worked at the marina last summer one of the kinds of boats was prone to vapor lock, we would disconnect the fuel line and run a little fuel into a container and away they went.
I hear ya on that one, all boats are different, my boat had 3/8 lines from '76 to now, so I worked like that for a long time and I know that lots of boats out there are that way so I guess it's a one off kinda thing...
But if Clay smith is telling him to run 1/2 why wouldnt he just do it so he can eliminate that variable??? And the reason I keep brining it back up is because when I did that it fixed my problem wich was the exact same thing Ultra is describing above.
I am no pro, so all I can do is talk about what I know from experiance, ya know what I mean?
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After reading the other thread, im starting to wonder if the problem is actually before the pump.
you replaced your lines about 2 years ago, Right or close to that ???
And you said the pump was pumping but not pumping fuel and i was thinking vapor lock but it usually dont vapor lock before the pump......
I say put that Clay Smith back on it, redo your lines check the tanks as posted above... this problem is probably right in front of you and don't even know it..
I just went through this with my boat. I replaced the mech Edelbrock F/P which is basically a clay Smith and went electric.....
Im back to the mech, and it runs Fukin great :D
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Thanks for all the replys. I appreciate it.
As far as the 1/2" line goes the reason I didn't do it is because the electric fuel tank selector valve and the fuel water seperator both have 1/4" NPT fittings. Which means even if I upgrade all my lines to 1/2" the I.D. of those fittings is only still probably gonna be 3/8" or less. I'm running a mostly stock 460, probably only about 350 hp. So I can't see how the 3/8" fuel line is the problem in my case. Another reason I went to electric is because Clay Smith said there was excessive wear on the fuel pump shaft. I'll get a pic up ASAP.
I'm thinking the reason the electric pump quite on me is because I was ideling for so long and the motor wasn't using any fuel causing the pump to overheat??? IDK???
I'll be rite back with the pick of the Clay Smith pump.
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How about a pic of your set up, is your fuel pump near the exhaust at all ?
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Pics. I was told this is from lack of lubrication. IDK???(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.supermotors.net%2Fgetfile%2F737823%2Ffullsize%2Fimg_0093.jpg&hash=154011454ce82f6ff63a9dd011838394b58e5b12)(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.supermotors.net%2Fgetfile%2F737831%2Ffullsize%2Fimg_0094.jpg&hash=de32161ed89849325c2f1ce15e5b28aca779062e)(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.supermotors.net%2Fgetfile%2F737832%2Ffullsize%2Fimg_0097.jpg&hash=e3774667e3a1d40b9e8bb49dcbc93386325bc80c)
This is the only pic of the motor setup I have currently. This was with the mechanical pump on. You can see the selector valve in the top left. The fuel water seperator is just below that and I mounted the pump just underneath the fuel water seperator.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.supermotors.net%2Fgetfile%2F726876%2Ffullsize%2Fimg_0031.jpg&hash=d5e86e5d02a157bf386460f572b0ee966062b5b1)
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Pics are blurry, but looks like normal markings on the pump lever to me. Wish mine looked that good! Lack of lubrication it would be worn down visibly and measureably, IMO. It's gonna get marks on it, lol, that's just kinda the way they work!.
Ray
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Pics are blurry, but looks like normal markings on the pump lever to me. Wish mine looked that good! Lack of lubrication it would be worn down visibly and measureably, IMO. It's gonna get marks on it, lol, that's just kinda the way they work!.
Ray
It is a little worn down. The left side of the silver mark is definately worn I can feel the dip with my finger.
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Honestly I think its time to pull them tanks...like someone said the problem is right there...you'll get it pal! I've seen drag cars idle plenty of times with no problems...its still going to circulate fuel and I don't see the pumps as being over worked...did you ever check your fuel vents to make sure that they are not plugged up? Maybe run it and when it has its glitch pop the lids open and see what happens...but my thought still is you are having air and cavitation type issues with your fuel pumps...I know at 4psi my bowls on my holley 800dp stay pretty full! I run 2 16 gal imco tanks non vented...vents are the caps I guess...
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I am with Nordie. Proper venting is a big issue. When I modded my tanks I made sure I vented them seperate from cap cause with my Blower EFI motor I know I am going to pull some fuel and I do not trust the stock vent caps.
460:
Your fuel line at the carb maybe too close to the intake and could also absorb heat. Just a thought, again the stock pickups in these things are a little bigger than McDonalds straws.
T.J.
Here is post with fuel vents.
http://www.socaljetboats.com/index.php?topic=3843.0
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Thread jack.... Hey TJ how ya doing bud ??? Getting closer to getting your ride wet yet ???
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Ok so we can eliminate everything from the pump forward, I think it's time for process of elimination.....
Check your lines/tanks and if all is good, get a brass "T" and bypass your tank selector and run of both tanks as one.....
Check the fittings on the fuel/water seperator make sure its not sucking air.....
Im just thinking out loud here, its what i would do :sly:
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Good advice as well, and why you should use a gas can then keep moving backward with what hose you disconnect and stick in the can.
The vapor locking is a good one to try. And I would in hopes it's not what I think it is. (You have no idea how much I want to be wrong on this).
I'm still convinced you have a deeper issue, yeah the tanks and pickups/tubes, the hardest thing to deal with of any scenario I know, and just what you DON'T want to hear. But you've checked and replaced all the hoses (Which are the same size I'm running on a dual 750 Tunnel Ram and Terry admitted running on a Blown twin Dominator V-drive, more than enough!), you've tried two different pumps, 1 mech, and 1 electric with basically the same result, so.
Bring the thing to Big River friday, and I'll ride with ya and when it dies, we'll open the fuel fills and see if that cures it. If not, well I'm right. If it does, FANTASTIC, easy fix, vents are plugged or add bigger vents, easier than pulling the tanks!
(I was told I had a vapor lock issue in the Blue Meaney. Don't think that was quite it, given the result, More later on my theory on that ordeal, but I think it's related to your troubles, lol).
Ray
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Thread jack.... Hey TJ how ya doing bud ??? Getting closer to getting your ride wet yet ???
See updated post on whooo it runs..
Sorry for the re-jack.
T.J.
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I forgot to mention that I did check the vents on both tanks. Both flow very freely, no restrictions.
The thing I think some of you are overlooking is that the electric pump had good pressure. Until it quit working it was putting out 11psi. That would lead me to believe there is no restricion or maybe it was the hose I removed that went from the fuel water seperator to the fuel pump. IDK...
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I would just start trying to elimate what the problem is by taking it all out of the equation.
Go as direct from the tank to the carb as possible and run it under load checking the pressure. Once it runs good that way, add another piece to the puzzle, continuing the process. Eventually you will find the faulty piece.
We can sit here and guess what it could be all day long but there are just to many variables.
If you need a hand on the lake let me know!
Jeremy
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I forgot to mention that I did check the vents on both tanks. Both flow very freely, no restrictions.
The thing I think some of you are overlooking is that the electric pump had good pressure. Until it quit working it was putting out 11psi. That would lead me to believe there is no restricion or maybe it was the hose I removed that went from the fuel water seperator to the fuel pump. IDK...
No I'm picking up what your laying down however...you have had the same incident with 2 pumps one electric one manual...you said it yourself the pump you sent to clay smith came back flowing something like 21psi...automatically that would tell me something is a stir...honestly ask yourself if your missing something...the only thing I can think of is your sucking air from somewhere...I don't care if the lines installed are two years old I would replace all for a start its cheap insurance...#2 let's just say all that boucing around could have knocked some tubes loose on the pickup...I really don't think its the fuel pump however I have been wrong b4...looks like the problem just isn't going to solve itself...go get a 15 dollar autozone pump and try it....
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I think I'm just gonna reinstall the mechanical pump and start checking and replacing all the fuel lines again. I'd rather have low fuel pressure than none at all. :thumbup:
When the tanks get emptied after another trip or two on the water I'll probably pull them and check the pickups.
Probably gonna run steel braided lines too. ;D -8 sound big enough?
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-8 sounds like plenty I wouldn't even sweat doing the braided unless your going for looks...I got all the thread on stuff with rubber lines that push onto them...btw I run 3/8 fuel line as well...I think you'll be fine honestly I would dig into the tanks...I won't be on mead this weekend but possibly the following I can run out with ya in my boat and take a look see with ya...
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I think I'm just gonna reinstall the mechanical pump and start checking and replacing all the fuel lines again. I'd rather have low fuel pressure than none at all. :thumbup:
When the tanks get emptied after another trip or two on the water I'll probably pull them and check the pickups.
Probably gonna run steel braided lines too. ;D -8 sound big enough?
Good idea, go back to step one..
Braided lines are pricey and probably not neccesary. I used them only cause you can see everything on mine..... and there purdy ;D
-8 is fine ;)
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I might as well dress it up a little bit if I'm gonna go through all the work again. ;D
I'll have the pump and the lines in by the weekend and hopefully be able to take a run out to the lake and test it out. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
Thanks again!
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I might as well dress it up a little bit if I'm gonna go through all the work again. ;D
I'll have the pump and the lines in by the weekend and hopefully be able to take a run out to the lake and test it out. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
Thanks again!
If you need a hand paddling, let me know. ;)
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If you need a hand paddling, let me know. ;)
Haha! Will do.
The mechanical pump might have low pressure but it hasn't left me stranded. Yet...
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Did you check to see if the fuel water seperator is clogged or restricting at all? Go to walmart and spend the seven bucks and change the filter , when I checked mine all kinds of sand came out of it.