SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: Thedogkeeper on June 14, 2012, 11:36:25 AM
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I purchased a '76 Cee Bee Avenger last Sunday, 460 CI, Berkely pump. Unfortunately I did not take it to the lake first. The engine ran fine when I was first looking at it--we did not hook up water to the motor--no smoke at all. When I brought it home and hooked up the water, it hydrolocked. I pulled the plugs and got water out of 2 cylinders on one side and one on the other side. I did not pull it apart yet--I am trying to find if the seller is going to do anything about it. My first guess is bad heads. The heads are D3VE-A2As. I have a chance to buy D2VE's pr D0VE's from a guy on-line. Any advice on which of these heads is the better ones to use? I haven't been a Ford guy since the '70s when I was in high school. Of course I do am not certain what is wrong with the engine until I tear it down a bit. Hopefully the guy I bought it from will pitch in some money for the repairs.
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Well not trying to insult you but did you fire it up before you turned the hose on and did you turn it on all the way? Does it have water injected headers or logs?
Fat fingered from the phone- Corey
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Well not trying to insult you but did you fire it up before fireing it up and did you turn the hose on all the way? Does it have water injected headers or logs?
Fat fingered from the phone- Corey
There is a LOT to this. ^^^ . Don't matter if it's Ford, Chevy, Audi, ........Yugo.......gonna be tha same situation. Need to know exactly whats there and how it's plumbed before anyone can give an even remote educated guess as to where the water is coming from. Could be a head gasket, intake gasket, exhaust reversion, cracked block, cracked heads, Alien intervention.......just a guess at this point.
First, did you open the hose valve all the way (NEVER DO THAT! Most Cities supply around 50-60 PSI water pressure to your house, in MY case, more like 80 PSI). Just crack the valve a 1/4 turn or so, and only do THAT AFTER it's running, same as it would on the water.
Second, on the heads, there is no need to get crazy on that just yet, not knowing what C/R you are already running, etc. D3 heads can and will flow just as well as D0VE and in most cases, more than enough in stock form. a lot of people still have "D0VE" on the brain simply because they are 70cc chambers or so ( i usually measure less) as compared to D3VE which have 95cc (I usually see 92-93). Instant compression ratio increase to the shade tree mechanic and thus, HP increase! Those days went out with Punk Rock.........we have better off the shelf pistons, options that make that difference negligeable if you put it together knowing what you have.
So no, not really. However, if your heads are junk, AND your gonna build the engine anyway, AND the D0VE's are cheap, SURE, go for it! Why not? Otherwise, if your heads are fine, leave it alone and build it with those. You can honestly see 700HP pretty handily using the D3 heads without getting real nuts.........
Ray
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I purchased a '76 Cee Bee Avenger last Sunday, 460 CI, Berkely pump. ... When I brought it home and hooked up the water, it hydrolocked. ... The heads are D3VE-A2As. I have a chance to buy D2VE's pr D0VE's from a guy on-line. Any advice on which of these heads is the better ones to use? Of course I do am not certain what is wrong with the engine until I tear it down a bit.
Presuming it ran fine until it hydro-locked, the chances are that your heads are fine and your short block is what needs rebuilding.
Also, it's likely that a 1976 Cee Bee Avenger with an OEM 460 engine has OEM dished pistons with D3VEs (about 7.8:1 compression ratio, typical). Swapping to early-style (C8VE/C9VE/D0VE) heads with about a 22cc dish piston will net you about 9.1:1 +/- in a stock engine with the OEM dished pistons and about 9.8:1 at 0.030" overbore. In a stock stroke 460, D3VE heads with flat-top pistons will net you about 9.8:1 +/- (rebuilt at 0.030" overbore). So if your heads are fine then just rebuild your 460 short block with a flat top piston/D3VE's and you'll have the same compression ratio as with the D0VE head swap.
Regardless of which head you go with (D3VE or D0VE), porting them is a very good idea in your jet boat application. And unless you want to spend a lot of money D3VE heads will limit you to about 450 hp without an expensive valve train upgrade. If you choose to go with D0VE heads, more horsepower is certainly possible but the valve train upgrade still applies. We have a budget-ported set of early-style heads ready to bolt on. Call if interested.
LO
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SoCalPSD, you are not insulting me a bit asking that question because it starting me thinking about what could happen if water was high pressure although I don't know the anwer. I turned it on all the way--water pressure is barely over 35 psi in our area. What are your thoughts? I've been working on cars for 40 years but am new to jet boats; I listen to all advice and I'm not that good that I can't learn something.
LakesOnly--excellent explanations. Do you have a shop? Please let me know how to contact you. There is much more to this than I imagined. I think I would not like to increase the compression ratio too high. If I remember correctly, there is a high chance for detonation and I really don't plan on going very fast.
IRRebel--super advice. Again I ask the question about 35 psi, or more, of water to the block. Did I cause an issue--hopefully repairable? I cannot think through the logic of what could happen. I am jumping the gun thinking there might be a mechanical problem but I was pretty upset that I made a $2200 dollar mistake. I am going to do a leak down tomorrow morning, hopefully that may tell me something.
Thanks again for the replies, you guys sure know what you are talking about!
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I would stay away from the d2's Scroll to the lower part...
http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com/casting-numbers-descriptions-1-index.html (http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com/casting-numbers-descriptions-1-index.html)
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Thanks Mom. Good info. I did read the D2's were junk.
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I forgot to add the exhaust are logs. How does water flow through logs? Are they jacketed or does the cooling water mix with the exhaust gases?
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After thinking about this post, they may not be logs. They are Harman Marine exhaust manifolds. Are these considered logs?
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This my engine with a log style...
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi897.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac178%2F2ndlight%2F0415021314.jpg&hash=cd6eedd00fdbc49fce8b75108a38a5f223400d1d)
This is how they get plumbed..
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi897.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac178%2F2ndlight%2Findex.jpg&hash=820efde3ec1c46a082cda9f735cf201108ae9410)
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I would stay away from the d2's Scroll to the lower part...
http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com/casting-numbers-descriptions-1-index.html (http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com/casting-numbers-descriptions-1-index.html)
Thanks Mom. Good info. I did read the D2's were junk.
I used to say "they are junk," too. But D2VE heads are not junk heads and in fact they have the best intake/exhaust port combination of all the standard carburetted passenger car heads. In the 429/460 high performance circles, they were considered to be a great blown alcohol head back in their heyday before all the BBF cylinder head options came about. There are certainly better blower heads today but back then the were considered a good choice for injected alcohol engines or blown alcohol engines. Or race gas engines.
But D2VE heads are a true OEM open chamber head which is not suitable for high compression pump gas engines because they are prone to detonation when used that way. So in a high performance, high compression pump gas build they are to be avoided. So within that realm, yes, there are better cylinder head choices.
Therefore, if you have a bone stock 1972 429 with D2VE heads on it in your jet boat, it will run fine on premium fuel assuming good tune. If you are going to build a high compression engine that must run on pump gas then you ought to change those heads out. Having said that, if you don't have D2VE heads and have the chocie between D2VE's and D0VE's, forget the D2VEs and get the D0VEs since they are far more versatile and a far better overall choice--expecialy for your pump gas application.
LO
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LakesOnly--excellent explanations. Do you have a shop? Please let me know how to contact you. There is much more to this than I imagined. I think I would not like to increase the compression ratio too high. If I remember correctly, there is a high chance for detonation and I really don't plan on going very fast.
In all seriousness I am happy to discuss your 460 build needs and point you in the right direction, even if that means using another parts manufacturer or engine builder. Contact info is in my signature line below, just click on the link and the phone number is on the website.
LO
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My manifolds look exactly as yours. I did a leak down and found there is apparently a high leak rate into the crankcase--bummer. I changed the oil to give it another try. The engine ran good while putting a moderate amount of water from a hose into it. I shut the engine down, tried stating it again, and it would not start. Water in the cylinders again. There is a rebuilt 460 on Craiglist for $500. I might just get it and put it in the boat so I can use it this summer If I tear down the engine that's in the boat, I'm looking at least $500 to put a couple of used heads and new gaskets on it. Any thoughts on this idea? I still don't understand why it runs ok then fills with water; there was't much pressure in the garden hose I hooked to the motor.
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LakesOnly--you are a great source of knowledge. I checked the website and am quite impressed.