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J2

  • Karma: +5/-0
Headers
« on: September 16, 2016, 05:05:14 PM »
I'm running 2 1/4" Bassett twisties. I know these are good headers.

Been thinking about 2 1/2" Blower headers. Bassett makes some.

Also thinking about going dry. I have a control valve for my water at my seat now, but it still makes a mess below the weep holes. If I decide to stay with these I'll install the aluminum plates I have sitting in the garage that used to be under the weep holes, in the Daytona the weep holes sit right above the stringers.

Anyone have any experience with the different style headers?

The up-swept headers I've seen look cool, but are they as efficient. I've done some research and everything leads back to Bassett for the best performance.
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angermgmt

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Re: Headers
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2016, 05:26:41 PM »
If you go dry make sure they are ceramic coated.


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jimpen

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Re: Headers
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2016, 05:49:15 PM »
All headers are different for different applications. I run MSF custom upsweeps and they are real nice. Ceramic coated are nice but not required. Running dry is fine but it depends on where you boat. I have been dry for two years and have not had any problems. I have a good idea where not to go and stay smart when driving it.  Some of us run to big of cams to run wet. Keep in mind the get extremely hot.


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BCouey

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Re: Headers
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2016, 09:57:54 PM »
My understanding is that the shorties make more power with shorter primary tube length and closer to equal length tubes. I don't think most engines would benefit from the 2-1/2" tubes unless your making over 1000 hp or something. There's calculators online to figure your ideal primary diameter and length, I'd play with one for direction but not rely 100% on that


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GT Jets

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Re: Headers
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2016, 10:06:37 PM »
My understanding is that the shorties make more power with shorter primary tube length and closer to equal length tubes. I don't think most engines would benefit from the 2-1/2" tubes unless your making over 1000 hp or something. There's calculators online to figure your ideal primary diameter and length, I'd play with one for direction but not rely 100% on that


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Not necessarily true.

It really depends on what the heads need for scavenging and  back pressure. Cam profile,  valve lift,  rpm and several other factors determine what works best,  there is no silver bullet header.

Shortie headers can actually rob power,  similar to what zoomies will do on a naturally aspirated deal.

As silly as it sounds,  sometimes smaller primaries can scavenge much more effectively, specially at silly high RPM, larger primary tubes cab also dramatically cool off the exhaust gases too quickly making it very turbulent/violent,  this is undesirable when talking exhaust.

There was a killer article I read several years ago,  I'll see if I can scare it up.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

BCouey

  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Headers
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2016, 10:17:49 PM »

Not necessarily true.

It really depends on what the heads need for scavenging and  back pressure. Cam profile,  valve lift,  rpm and several other factors determine what works best,  there is no silver bullet header.

Shortie headers can actually rob power,  similar to what zoomies will do on a naturally aspirated deal.

As silly as it sounds,  sometimes smaller primaries can scavenge much more effectively, specially at silly high RPM, larger primary tubes cab also dramatically cool off the exhaust gases too quickly making it very turbulent/violent,  this is undesirable when talking exhaust.

There was a killer article I read several years ago,  I'll see if I can scare it up.

GT

Totally agree, and I didn't elude to there being a silver bullet header, when it comes to bassetts in particular I have heard the twisties were designed more for looks whereas the Bassett shorties were designed for performance. That's all I was getting at with that. And i did mention using a calculator to determine needs as well as bigger not necessarily being better. So not sure why I'm being corrected lol.


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GT Jets

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Re: Headers
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2016, 10:37:31 PM »
Totally agree, and I didn't elude to there being a silver bullet header, when it comes to bassetts in particular I have heard the twisties were designed more for looks whereas the Bassett shorties were designed for performance. That's all I was getting at with that. And i did mention using a calculator to determine needs as well as bigger not necessarily being better. So not sure why I'm being corrected lol.


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Not being corrected really, just thought the comment about the shorter=better needed some clarification is all......

You done good son, I just been drinking and felt a little frisky, what a fukkin week.....  :mad: :screwy: :banghead:


GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

BCouey

  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Headers
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2016, 11:18:19 PM »

Not being corrected really, just thought the comment about the shorter=better needed some clarification is all......

You done good son, I just been drinking and felt a little frisky, what a fukkin week.....  :mad: :screwy: :banghead:


GT

Lol no worries brotha! I know we all want to make sure we steer people the right direction. Speaking of headers what do you think of the stainless borla upswept with collector mufflers? I got a deal on a set and I'm gonna try them out. Never liked running water but I wouldn't mind the db being turned down a tad by these mufflers


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GT Jets

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Re: Headers
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2016, 11:40:52 PM »
Lol no worries brotha! I know we all want to make sure we steer people the right direction. Speaking of headers what do you think of the stainless borla upswept with collector mufflers? I got a deal on a set and I'm gonna try them out. Never liked running water but I wouldn't mind the db being turned down a tad by these mufflers


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That's what I have. They have been modified to be wet and also have evacuation tubes.

I think they're killer.  You will need to do some tuning though.  Seem to run spooky lean.  We used to run then on the whitewater boat.

XR-1 drag headers. They aren't super quiet,  but a hell of a lot quieter than open Bassetts.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 07:33:38 PM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

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Ray

BCouey

  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Headers
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2016, 11:55:03 PM »

That's what I have. They have been modified to be wet and also have excavation tubes.

I think they're killer.  You will need to do some tuning though.  Seem to run spooky lean.  We used to run then on the whitewater boat.

XR-1 drag headers. They aren't super quiet,  but a hell of a lot quieter than open Bassetts.

Right on, good to know thank you. Mine are the xr1 for sure, they have the evac tubes but I'm going to cap them off since I have a vacuum pump. Sounds like I'm going to like them, and I'll be checking the plugs from the sounds of it too. I'm sure when we dyno test we will have to use whatever they got on hand so I'll have to check again once it's in the boat with the borlas on.

I did that frank Hawley drive a super comp dragster thing a while back and they had the borlas, sounded muffled but stout still so that gave me the idea


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Bigblockchevy1691

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Re: Headers
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2016, 12:22:08 AM »

Not necessarily true.

It really depends on what the heads need for scavenging and  back pressure. Cam profile,  valve lift,  rpm and several other factors determine what works best,  there is no silver bullet header.

Shortie headers can actually rob power,  similar to what zoomies will do on a naturally aspirated deal.

As silly as it sounds,  sometimes smaller primaries can scavenge much more effectively, specially at silly high RPM, larger primary tubes cab also dramatically cool off the exhaust gases too quickly making it very turbulent/violent,  this is undesirable when talking exhaust.

There was a killer article I read several years ago,  I'll see if I can scare it up.

GT
Well said👍


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J2

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Headers
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2016, 08:12:43 AM »
Thanks for all the input. I get ideas about what to do next and want to make informed decisions. If it's something that's only a few hundred dollars then I might try it and see without to much worry. Kind of like the 6" extension I experimented with, btw compared to the full droop I'm running now no noticeable performance difference. Sticking with the droop, easier to move thrust level.

Back to exhaust. I have the engine dialed in for what it is. It runs best in a rich condition, especially at idle.
Running BBC 468, 8-1 compression - Everything in this engine was set up for the Procharger.
990 heads with port work and matched to Victor Jr intake
9 psi boost (Have 12 psi pulley to try, probably sooner than later)
Comp Cam 575/595 lift, 11-568-4
Methanol injection (30% F&L racing methanol & water runs best, experimented with ratios)
Currently runs to 6100 rpm, going to tune the impeller to get to 6400 rpm although I need to try more boost before I have the impeller cut down so I don't go to far.

I understand the concerns going dry and really not sure I want to go there without option. I can run these dry which I do sometimes, it is nice that I can turn on the water to cool them down.

I really do like the look of the MSF up-swept, if they don't hurt performance which if Jim's running them then I don't see how they could. Might be worth it to me. What's he charging these days?
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Headers
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2016, 03:27:48 PM »
There are a few things that I feel are important about headers and clearing some misconceptions.

Pipe Diameter

Pipe diameter is based on the cylinder volume and RPM.  Basically it comes down to the volume of exhaust gasses that are being evacuated from the cylinder.  The general rule of thumb is to start with a primary INSIDE DIAMETER that is within 1/8" of the exhaust valve diameter.  Another is that changes to pipe diameter rock torque output about peak torque.  Larger diameter pipes will aid torque production above peak torque RPM.  Pipe diameter can be calculated to optimize "tune" for a specific displacement and RPM to get you a starting point.

If you look at the exhaust (header) system as a whole, from combustion chamber to atmosphere, the greatest restriction is the valve seat geometry.  At low valve lift, the restriction is the seat geometry and at high lift, the restriction is the valve seat throat (the transition between the machined seat and the cast port).   This area forms a venturi shape, enhancing velocity, and is so critical to port flow that I once lost about 30CFM in an SBC Vortec head by increasing the throat diameter, while learning head porting.  I say to emphasize how important velocity is to flow and therefore performance.

In thinking about my application, I am pondering the pros and cons of a "tuned" set of headers.  I currently have a set of through transom Bassetts.  I don't think any thought of "tuning" went into the design of these headers.  I think they are intended to look big and impressive and chrome on an open engine compartment boat.  If any gains in performance occurred over the manifolds they replaced, bonus.  The first thing that jumps out at me is the primary pipe diameter.  Comparing the huge mismatch between these headers and the exhaust ports, this becomes an area of gaseous expansion and a corresponding area of decreased velocity.  On a side note, I think this contributes to reversion.

In a supercharged application, the gaseous expansion is less of a concern than in a naturally aspirated application.  The exhaust performs less of a duty of scavenging, creating a point of low pressure in the cylinder to decrease restriction of atmospheric pressure pushing fresh air fuel mixture into the cylinder.  At our level of supercharged applications, the exhaust performs more of a "evacuating exhaust gas from the passenger compartment with minimal restriction" duty rather than aiding performance through "tuning".

I do think there is performance to be had with tuned headers and the most benefit would occur at max RPM.  This speaking purely full-throttle performance rather than cruise economy or pulling skiers.  I would bias pipe diameter for high RPM.  I would also step the pipe diameter to maintain the highest level of velocity.

Lastly, I think that biasing the torque curve to favor max RPM, therefore killing off a little bottom end, will help the pump hook and load better.  Supercharged applications tend to shock the pump harder, causing the RPM to tag the rev-limiter instead of launching harder.  Although, with a centrifugal supercharger, you could soften the hit with a blow off valve by dumping boost until the pump loads.

Pipe Length

Organ pipe theory describes wave tuning and basically states that each pipe length will resonate at its own frequency.  When the engine "comes on the pipe," a low pressure area is created in the cylinder, aiding volumetric efficiency.  I think it is important to note here that at all other RPM, the wave tuning may or may not be detrimental to VE, bit it is for sure not aiding VE.

I have spent a lot of discussing header theory with two basic 'school of thought' people.  One, and the most common is:  all the pipes need to be the exact same length, or at least within 2" of each other.  The other is: each pipe needs to flow exactly the same, regardless of length.  Pipes with more bends or sharper bends will be more restrictive than straight pipe.  Therefore a pipe with more bends will be necessarily shorter than one with less bends.  Both schools of thought completely disregard the other.  The equal flow guys disregard wave tuning because it occurs at only one RPM.

Both conditions exist in a running engine and both have merit.  In a car, an untuned length header can actually help produce a broader, flatter torque curve.  In a jet boat, I don't see that as being beneficial.  One successful jet boat racer is of the philosophy that the engine should produce the most peak horsepower and should carry it for the last 1,000 RPM of the RPM range before falling off.  This aids in maintaining consistent performance throughout the day of changing weather conditions.

A single RPM engine of a jet boat lends itself to tuned length headers.  At the same time, fewer gradual bends are less restrictive and cosmetically appealing.  Flowbench tuning of headers is unrealistic at our level.  One area of great importance is the transition from the ports into the primary pipes.  A short piece of straight tubing, about 2" long, before the first bend is important.  This tube should not be perpendicular to the header gasket surface, but should closely replicate the angle of the port roof and have a smooth transition.  A mismatch is acceptable and preferred at the floor.  If reversion will occur, it will be along the floor and short-turn radius of the port.

All headers will "tune" somewhere.  I don't really see performance being that different between the off-the-shelf one-size-fits-all production headers when pipe/collector sizes and lengths are so similar.  There might be a difference based on port alignment.  I think the Borla or MSF would have an edge, especially if the MSF are tuned to your application.

I hope this gives you some insight on features to consider when shopping for headers.

Cheers,

Joe
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jimpen

  • Karma: +68/-0
Headers
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2016, 06:29:17 PM »
Thanks for all the input. I get ideas about what to do next and want to make informed decisions. If it's something that's only a few hundred dollars then I might try it and see without to much worry. Kind of like the 6" extension I experimented with, btw compared to the full droop I'm running now no noticeable performance difference. Sticking with the droop, easier to move thrust level.

Back to exhaust. I have the engine dialed in for what it is. It runs best in a rich condition, especially at idle.
Running BBC 468, 8-1 compression - Everything in this engine was set up for the Procharger.
990 heads with port work and matched to Victor Jr intake
9 psi boost (Have 12 psi pulley to try, probably sooner than later)
Comp Cam 575/595 lift, 11-568-4
Methanol injection (30% F&L racing methanol & water runs best, experimented with ratios)
Currently runs to 6100 rpm, going to tune the impeller to get to 6400 rpm although I need to try more boost before I have the impeller cut down so I don't go to far.

I understand the concerns going dry and really not sure I want to go there without option. I can run these dry which I do sometimes, it is nice that I can turn on the water to cool them down.

I really do like the look of the MSF up-swept, if they don't hurt performance which if Jim's running them then I don't see how they could. Might be worth it to me. What's he charging these days?
. Not sure what he is charging now. Lots of choices and materials but I did gain top end with the MSF and they look great. They are loud but sound good I'm real happy with them.


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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Headers
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2016, 07:02:30 PM »
There are a few things that I feel are important about headers and clearing some misconceptions.

Pipe Diameter

Pipe diameter is based on the cylinder volume and RPM.  Basically it comes down to the volume of exhaust gasses that are being evacuated from the cylinder.  The general rule of thumb is to start with a primary INSIDE DIAMETER that is within 1/8" of the exhaust valve diameter.  Another is that changes to pipe diameter rock torque output about peak torque.  Larger diameter pipes will aid torque production above peak torque RPM.  Pipe diameter can be calculated to optimize "tune" for a specific displacement and RPM to get you a starting point.

If you look at the exhaust (header) system as a whole, from combustion chamber to atmosphere, the greatest restriction is the valve seat geometry.  At low valve lift, the restriction is the seat geometry and at high lift, the restriction is the valve seat throat (the transition between the machined seat and the cast port).   This area forms a venturi shape, enhancing velocity, and is so critical to port flow that I once lost about 30CFM in an SBC Vortec head by increasing the throat diameter, while learning head porting.  I say to emphasize how important velocity is to flow and therefore performance.

In thinking about my application, I am pondering the pros and cons of a "tuned" set of headers.  I currently have a set of through transom Bassetts.  I don't think any thought of "tuning" went into the design of these headers.  I think they are intended to look big and impressive and chrome on an open engine compartment boat.  If any gains in performance occurred over the manifolds they replaced, bonus.  The first thing that jumps out at me is the primary pipe diameter.  Comparing the huge mismatch between these headers and the exhaust ports, this becomes an area of gaseous expansion and a corresponding area of decreased velocity.  On a side note, I think this contributes to reversion.

In a supercharged application, the gaseous expansion is less of a concern than in a naturally aspirated application.  The exhaust performs less of a duty of scavenging, creating a point of low pressure in the cylinder to decrease restriction of atmospheric pressure pushing fresh air fuel mixture into the cylinder.  At our level of supercharged applications, the exhaust performs more of a "evacuating exhaust gas from the passenger compartment with minimal restriction" duty rather than aiding performance through "tuning".

I do think there is performance to be had with tuned headers and the most benefit would occur at max RPM.  This speaking purely full-throttle performance rather than cruise economy or pulling skiers.  I would bias pipe diameter for high RPM.  I would also step the pipe diameter to maintain the highest level of velocity.

Lastly, I think that biasing the torque curve to favor max RPM, therefore killing off a little bottom end, will help the pump hook and load better.  Supercharged applications tend to shock the pump harder, causing the RPM to tag the rev-limiter instead of launching harder.  Although, with a centrifugal supercharger, you could soften the hit with a blow off valve by dumping boost until the pump loads.

Pipe Length

Organ pipe theory describes wave tuning and basically states that each pipe length will resonate at its own frequency.  When the engine "comes on the pipe," a low pressure area is created in the cylinder, aiding volumetric efficiency.  I think it is important to note here that at all other RPM, the wave tuning may or may not be detrimental to VE, bit it is for sure not aiding VE.

I have spent a lot of discussing header theory with two basic 'school of thought' people.  One, and the most common is:  all the pipes need to be the exact same length, or at least within 2" of each other.  The other is: each pipe needs to flow exactly the same, regardless of length.  Pipes with more bends or sharper bends will be more restrictive than straight pipe.  Therefore a pipe with more bends will be necessarily shorter than one with less bends.  Both schools of thought completely disregard the other.  The equal flow guys disregard wave tuning because it occurs at only one RPM.

Both conditions exist in a running engine and both have merit.  In a car, an untuned length header can actually help produce a broader, flatter torque curve.  In a jet boat, I don't see that as being beneficial.  One successful jet boat racer is of the philosophy that the engine should produce the most peak horsepower and should carry it for the last 1,000 RPM of the RPM range before falling off.  This aids in maintaining consistent performance throughout the day of changing weather conditions.

A single RPM engine of a jet boat lends itself to tuned length headers.  At the same time, fewer gradual bends are less restrictive and cosmetically appealing.  Flowbench tuning of headers is unrealistic at our level.  One area of great importance is the transition from the ports into the primary pipes.  A short piece of straight tubing, about 2" long, before the first bend is important.  This tube should not be perpendicular to the header gasket surface, but should closely replicate the angle of the port roof and have a smooth transition.  A mismatch is acceptable and preferred at the floor.  If reversion will occur, it will be along the floor and short-turn radius of the port.

All headers will "tune" somewhere.  I don't really see performance being that different between the off-the-shelf one-size-fits-all production headers when pipe/collector sizes and lengths are so similar.  There might be a difference based on port alignment.  I think the Borla or MSF would have an edge, especially if the MSF are tuned to your application.

I hope this gives you some insight on features to consider when shopping for headers.

Cheers,

Joe

Yeah, that's what I said....... LMFAO.....


Joe, I have to tell you bro, reading your stuff is like reading a sci-fi thriller..  Simply can't put it down.


Thank you for all you do bud.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Headers
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2016, 08:24:45 PM »
Thanks Glenn.

https://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Exhaust-Systems-Engineering-Performance/dp/0837603099

The Scientific Design of Exhaust and Intake Systems is probably the best read on exhaust and Intake design there is.  I'll be honest, it took me a few years to absorb that material and much less time to forget it.  I still marvel at the testing equipment developed and I find the whole concept of interference intriguing.

Cheers,

Joe
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J2

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Headers
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2016, 08:21:01 AM »
Thanks Joe, really good read.
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