SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: Brad @ SCJB on June 17, 2013, 05:48:00 PM
-
Heres the deal....I put this motor together and it broke. Yes, It sucks and I'm not happy about it, but don't judge me. I gave it a shot and it failed. I plan on taking it apart and learning from my mistakes, if it was due to my mistake.....and of course this website is about helping people, so hopefully someone else can learn from this as well.
But lets have some fun with it. I will give you the basic facts that I know, but you have to guess what the cause was....and what the damage is inside.
Here is what happened:
I launched the boat, drove up river and back down at about 3k. Upon turning to go back up river I rolled into the throttle and got about 3/4 throttle and it made a ton of noise. I immediately pulled the kill switch. Upon immediate inspection, the bilge was full of oil. (14 quarts of royal purple :banghead:)
Stuff I can see wrong so far:
- The oil pan has a bullet hole it the front center of the pan
- I found the oil pump shaft up in front of my feet near the front bulkhead. The end of it bent in a near 90 degree angle.
- The pan has a dent on the right side near #5
- #5 doesnt pump air at all out of the spark plug hole - didnt bother checking any other cylinders.
So what do you guys think happened? Winner gets a whopping bag of nothing. I broke a motor, why should you profit from it? ;) I will be pulling the motor apart tomorrow (Tuesday) and will be posting info/pics as I pull it apart.
Here some pics.....
Hole in the front of the pan where the oil pump shaft shot out
[attachimg=1]
Oil Pump Shaft
[attachimg=2]
Dent in oil pan near #5
[attachimg=3]
Remember, we're just trying to have fun here. :thumbup:
-
Ok if i had to guess id say you floated a valve, hit the piston material went to the pan, got sucked up the pickup jamed the oil pump and thats how you threw the pump shaft. just a guess!
-
We're the rod bolts tight? #5 might of came loose and slapped the rod around. And broke it sending it all over the bottom. I've see that same thing happen and that's what we found what happen. It's just a guess but won't know for sure until you drop the pan.
-
Oil pump fell off took out rod
Sent from Wendy on my iPhone using SoCalJetBoats mobile app
-
The motor was built to spec with correct tolerances and torque specs.
The above statement doesn't mean I'm saying a professional motor builder, just stating I did it according to what was expected.
One last fact I forgot to add....
The motor still turns over via starter and doesnt make any noise.
-
Don't really know what I'm talking about so I'm sorry to hear it broke I saw you put a lot of work into it but everything is fixable
Sent from my SGH-T999 using SoCalJetBoats mobile app
-
Brad no matter what happened u did a great job on the motor looks great and sounds badass we learn from our misshaps even know it cost u an oil pan I'm positive u will over come and just be glad it didn't go through the boat. P.s. very cool weekend had a blast. Thanks
-
Hmmm, my post didn't stick... You screwing with me B-Rad? :sly:
Backward rod on number 5 (bevel on wrong side), rod failed and took out oil pump, being as it is a stroker, things are closer than normal.
This is just a WAG
-
I hope you drained that oil and bilge water into a bucket and sucked at least 12 quarts off the top, run it through a coffee filter, and save it for the next
Motor. It's still good. I used to strain chunks of piston out of my perfectly good barely used redline race oil in my old race car.
-
I hope you drained that oil and bilge water into a bucket and sucked at least 12 quarts off the top, run it through a coffee filter, and save it for the next
Motor. It's still good. I used to strain chunks of piston out of my perfectly good barely used redline race oil in my old race car.
only you pat....only you (shaking head)
-
Does your pickup have a non-screened hole in the middle of it like some? I didn't see any twist in the shaft when I saw it on Sat. Night, indicating that it probably fell out somehow and got hung up with the #5 rod to make that nice little 90 degree bend, rather than something having locked up the pump...or maybe both...the pump
Locked up, arp shaft is stronger than Chinese melling pump, pump broke and #5 bent, broke itself, and fired the shaft at your foot as a reminder to build a Chevy next time or buy an outboard.
I'm not sure how fords are assembled, but I bet you'll find the oil pump (or at least parts of it) sitting at the bottom of the pan, or at least the drive receptical broken.
-
only you pat....only you (shaking head)
No he'd use the terry rag that he strained his oil with to wipe the boat down, then figure out another use for it later, pats resourceful like that
-
Git-r-dun
JACK
-
No he'd use the terry rag that he strained his oil with to wipe the boat down, then figure out another use for it later, pats resourceful like that
LOL!
Best guess is the oil pump casting broke off and the rods bitch slapped the hell outta the pump shaft sending it outta the pan balistically. Lord knows what else you're gonna find in there though. :screwy:
Ray
-
just saw a ford oil pump do that too-snapped between pump and bolt flange
-
Backward rod on number 5 (bevel on wrong side), rod failed and took out oil pump, being as it is a stroker, things are closer than normal.
These rods are offset which make it almost impossible to put them on backwards.
-
well, not sure what failed first and took out the other between the oil pump and the #5 rod....but its a mess.
broken rod
broken piston
broken rod bolt
broken oil pump
broken oil pump pickup
smashed up oil pan - again.
both valves on #5 slightly bent
block looks ok
crank is going to need to be turned
So new piston/rod, rebalance, new oil pump, pickup, repair pan (again), have the heads reworked....and I'll be good to go.
If I had the parts and resources and unlimited amount of cash.....i could make Idaho.....ya right, fukk racing. :thumbdown:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7]
[attachimg=8]
-
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
-
There's your problem, your oil pump and distributor are on the wrong side of the block
-
There's your problem, your oil pump and distributor are on the wrong side of the block
....the oldest joke of all time at the worst time possible. dont be a jackass.
-
Damn, that is a helluva mess. Still no clues as to what started everything?
-
I'm gunna be going with a broken rod bolt at this time...
-
Well at least it happened in Parker instead of driving all the way to Burley to break it. Sucks regardless....
-
well it all looks FUCKED to me.... sorry to hear :banghead:
-
....the oldest joke of all time at the worst time possible. dont be a jackass.
Gotta have a sense of man, that pans still sitting in my garage if ya need it
-
Dam im sorry that sucks!
-
Brad that is the same thing that happen to my buddy's engine. That's why I ask about rod bolts. That sucks to see someone go through that. Its not something to joke about for sure. Well hope you have better luck rebuilding. Still hope to meet some of you guys soon.
-
That sure seems like a lot of damage for the motor barely running. It sounded great when ypu got on it in the middle of the turn. We couldn't even hear a bang or rattle from the shore. We just saw you slow down idle then shut it off. That is really weird. Im sorry B-RAD I know how much this trip ment to you. You could always throw your other motor in there and just change the plates in the race boat. And I would agree with you. Looks like a rod bolt broke :(
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using SoCalJetBoats mobile app
-
My dad put a rod in backwards on our old 460 (too many beers into it) and it ran good for a minute, got on it and threw the rod through a brand new Dooley pan.
Sucks man hope you get it right!
Sent from my LG-VS700 using SoCalJetBoats mobile app
-
Holy crap in the pan batman...
Man, that sucks, I don't mind doing stuff once, but twice, then a third?
Sorry brother, let me know of there is something I can do from here, not sure what, just throwing it out there.
GT
-
block is junk....cracked #5 cylinder as well.
this shits depressing
[attachimg=1]
-
My dad put a rod in backwards on our old 460 (too many beers into it) and it ran good for a minute, got on it and threw the rod through a brand new Dooley pan.
Sucks man hope you get it right!
Sent from my LG-VS700 using SoCalJetBoats mobile app
just to clarify once again, the rods arent OEM rods, they are SCAT rods. These rod caps cannot be put on backwards. they are offset. the cap is misaligned by about 1/8" if you line them up incorrectly. it wouldnt even fit on the crank next to another rod if you did this.
-
That sucks
-
Bummer, Brad, sorry to see this. :(
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17521.0;attach=95714;image)
Looking at the above image, the angle of the break in the pump relative to the location of the missing rod suggests that the rod went first, came swinging around and
kicked the pump (and pickup tube) out of its way.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17521.0;attach=95790;image)
Looking at the above image: You might be suprised just how quickly a split cylinder can fill up with water, especially at jet boat cooling system pressures. This
engine failure could be a result of a split cylinder resulting in immediate hydro-lock. This hypothesis cannot be concluded from the images presented but is
certainly a possibility. Further, I don't see any rod smacking where the cylinder is split open (ie, mechanical damage did not crack the cylinder), so the
cylinder being the first to split is very possible.
LO
-
I agree that really sucks, after all your work. Well on to Long Beach.
-
I agree that really sucks, after all your work. Well on to Long Beach.
Brad won't do Long Beach.
Long story.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using SoCalJetBoats mobile app
-
I've run long beach since I put the 410 on the rocks....thats not the reason.
long beach is one of the most abusive races on the map....the water conditions really put a toll on the structure of the boat. Each time I've run that race, I've had to do extensive fiberglass work afterwards.
I have zero interest in running any races in the future other than the idaho regatta......so the 888 will remain covered for another 10 months.
-
Oh man.... That hurts to look at dude. If that were we me I'd probably be fighting back tears of frustration right about now.
-
Sorry Brad sorry to see this. Here if u need me, u have my number. good luck brother.
-
Brad, Did u have that cylinder block pressure tested and sonic tested ?
-
Brad, Did u have that cylinder block pressure tested and sonic tested ?
yes, it was sonic checked and came back with stellar numbers.
This was block number 2 submitted to the machine shop I went through. The first one had numbers that neither myself or the machinist were comfortable with which I passed on going with.
-
I've run long beach since I put the 410 on the rocks....thats not the reason.
long beach is one of the most abusive races on the map....the water conditions really put a toll on the structure of the boat. Each time I've run that race, I've had to do extensive fiberglass work afterwards.
I have zero interest in running any races in the future other than the idaho regatta......so the 888 will remain covered for another 10 months.
I said it was a long story... That sumbitch do get rough though... :screwy:
Can't recall for sure, but I believe there has been a boat up in the rocks for the last four years... :-\
-
sorry to see this Brad :thumbdown:
-
bro what a bum deal
im thinking hydraulic to do that much damage to the rod
or failed rod bolt.
Chris
sorry about the motor dude
-
This is horrible to see. I'm gonna try and make the event at the Avi in October so ill throw the back seat back in if you need a place to sit. Sorry about your luck.
-
Can #5 be sleeved inorder to save the block?
-
Can #5 be sleeved inorder to save the block?
I've sleeved blocks that didn't have cracks like that, but I'd be concerned about sealing the crack in this case. This block is already .080" over if I'm not mistaken. To sleeve it, gotta not out quite a bit more material.
I'd find a good .030" over core, take
It to .040" and be done with it.
Bum deal. Those who put engines together on a dirt floor with an impact wrench usually have no issues.....when you try to do everything right...that's when shit goes wrong. Look at it as a learning experience. Check all the bearings and see what they look like. It's rare that one has an opportunity to tear apart an engine with this little run time on it....it would be fun to inspect everything for wear and determine why it occurred if you see any.
-
So I just went out in the garage the first time since I tore it down....been a week now.....puts me in a funk to even go in there and look at it. I've been off work for over a week and have avoided being in the garage.
So enough of the whining.
What do you guys think I should do now? Obviously the past is the past and I need to move forward, but what direction should I go?
Give it a shot myself again and make another engine build thread? Obviously I have more time to do it right without a rush. More time = more money to throw at it too.
or take it to a reputable local builder here in town and hand him my wallet to have it done right?
Also, what do you guys want to see out of this boat? I only have a desire to go to the idaho race once a year, but if more people supported it and helped out (no disrespect to those who have - thank you!)....I would run more races.
Basically, its turning into a pile. It needs love and its not getting it. its hard because now I am in vegas, I dont have the support/help I did in the past when I lived in socal. Other than a slam session a few years ago with Nordie and Skip and occasional help from Chromey.... Since I moved here I've done this boat for each race by myself and its getting old. This last thrash and to have it go boom minutes off the trailer was heartbreaking.
Also, would even kick around the idea of sharing driving duties too with other members.
i dono.....just rambling. what do you guys think?
-
I would love to see the boat running. I think that with some more time it will go better. You have done the "take it to a shop" deal before and that didnt turn out all that good either. I think with some planning build parties would be fun, it would be like the river with out the water. I feel terrible B-RAD I know what this race meant to you and its a shame it went down like it did.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using SoCalJetBoats mobile app
-
"Failure is only an opportunity to begin again more intelligently."
- Henry Ford
listen to Henry :thumbup:
Daniel
-
taking it to a shop is too easy and you learn nothing,
first, send heads to charlie evens to be gone through
second, figure out a block, ford racing block is around 2 grand then machine work, or find another used one witch i would do.
third, buy a crank, lets face it the cast crank is going to let you down eventually.
fourth, pistons and rods, send all rods to machine shop to be checked then buy the rods and pistons you need, then balance the rotating assy again.
when all parts are gathered lock your self in the garage alone measure, check, measure, check then clean re-measure and check again. make a list measure, check, well you get the idea...... do not rush to get it done, it will get done when its done.....
if you insist on taking it to a shop then take it to paul kane and not some shop that does all brands.
-
I have Dove-A block from Paul with all the oiling mods done by him just sitting on my engine stand with a sonic check sheet. Hit me up B-Rad.
-
taking it to a shop is too easy and you learn nothing,
first, send heads to charlie evens to be gone through
second, figure out a block, ford racing block is around 2 grand then machine work, or find another used one witch i would do.
third, buy a crank, lets face it the cast crank is going to let you down eventually.
fourth, pistons and rods, send all rods to machine shop to be checked then buy the rods and pistons you need, then balance the rotating assy again.
when all parts are gathered lock your self in the garage alone measure, check, measure, check then clean re-measure and check again. make a list measure, check, well you get the idea...... do not rush to get it done, it will get done when its done.....
if you insist on taking it to a shop then take it to paul kane and not some shop that does all brands.
x2 good advice Ralph :thumbup: :thumbup:
-
Hey brad could you sleeve the block and save it ? The 460 i have dropped a valve seat destroying all of the pistons heads valves and some rods, we had to sleeve one of the cylinders, it was the one where the valve seat fell out in causing this whole thing, it idled fine tho :). Runs solid now same crank and block, 11qt oil pan, except i seem to have only 60 or so psi of oil pressure witch seems low to me but it never drops below that. Hope you get it fixed man...