SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: Omni_flyer on April 30, 2012, 02:36:50 PM
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Ok. Instead of selling I am now in the keep it and work on it mode. :screwy: I need to pull my 460 and fix an oil leak and replace the freeze plugs. I don't know what the oil leak is yet so that is why I am pulling it. I have an engine hoist and stand but have a few questions on pulling the engine:
20' Nordic Viking Day Cruiser
Ford 460 with snails
Dominator pump
1. What has to be disonnected at the pump/connections to the engine?
2. Anything else other than disconnecting the mounts for the engine?
3. Anyone have a DYI guide with pics?
4. Is there anything else I should replace after pulling the engine? Flush, etc...?
I really appreciate all of the help and expertise on this site! Any help with this will be greatly appreciated as well.
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I know, I know... Pics! Here is one and I will get more.
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first and foremost, before you remove/disconnect anything in this list. get your camera out and take pictures. so this way when you go to hook it back up you have a before/after comparison.
unhook water lines to logs
loosen hose clamps from log snails to exhaust tips
disconnect battery +
disconnect wire on starter for both starter AND solenoid
disconnect wire for alternator
disconnect wire for oil pressure and water temp sensor
disconnect wire for ignition
disconnect ground wire for block and ignition if u have one
disconnect fuel line
you might want to pull carb just to make sure hoist chain doesnt hit it and break anything
put a bolt in head with chain to hoist, then diagonally to other head
get hoist and chain snug, make sure you're not bending anything
loosen engine mounts dont remove em
lift a little more. remove mounts, and remove, you'll have to slide it forward to pull the driveline off of the pump shaft spline.
once its up and out of the boat, pull the bellhousing, driveline, and slap it onto a motor stand. its fairly heavy especially with the logs so make sure you're not using the $50 cheapo from harbor freight.
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ka0tyk,
Thanks. Is there anything I need to disconnect at the drive/pump connection? I think this is pretty straight forward. I just want to fix the oil leak and freeze plugs with out messing anything up or having to do major adjustments after reinstall.
Jim
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Marcrollin...does free motor pulls on the weekends....hes by you >:D hit him up
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ka0tyk,
Thanks. Is there anything I need to disconnect at the drive/pump connection? I think this is pretty straight forward. I just want to fix the oil leak and freeze plugs with out messing anything up or having to do major adjustments after reinstall.
Jim
Just the tail end of the bell housing, the drive shaft yolk should slide out as you ease the motor forward.
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Great and thanks! I will hit him up even if just to see the process.
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Okay,
I have everything off and ready to pull the engine tonight.
1. The reason I am pulling it is it leaks fresh clean oil just when sitting. It has leaked it all the way down to where nothing shows on the dip stick. Any idea what can cause this?
2. I am changing the freeze plugs. What is the best way to flush the silt/junk out?
3. I am going to change the U-joint as well. How do I find the right part # for the U-joint?
4. Is there anything else that I should do while I have the engine out?
As always, thanks for the help.
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cracked oil pan or bad drain plug if it leaks that much, because you would be well below the rear main seal.. i had 2 bbf pans crack on the bottom. I could not see it until i removed the pan one was a dooley and the other was a milodon pan
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First I would like to thank everyone for their help and responses. I have pulled the engine:
(http://[attach=1])
And found the culprit of the oil leak: a completely rusted oil plug
(http://[attach=2])
Also pulled the freeze plugs and removed the u joint:
(http://[attach=3])
Now I need help with the parts.
1. Where can I find a stock oil pan replacement?
2. What U-joints do I need or how do I find the part number?
3. Do I need to replace the freeze plug on the back of the block behind the fly-wheel?
Is there anything I am missing? Thanks for assisting me with this project/process.
Jim
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First I would like to thank everyone for their help and responses. I have pulled the engine:
And found the culprit of the oil leak: a completely rusted oil plug
Now I need help with the parts.
1. Where can I find a stock oil pan replacement?
2. What U-joints do I need or how do I find the part number?
3. Do I need to replace the freeze plug on the back of the block behind the fly-wheel?
Is there anything I am missing? Thanks for assisting me with this project/process.
Jim
The 2-1/2" plug on the rear of the block is a cam bore plug and does not seal the water jackets. Leave it alone if it does not appear
to be corroded. Change only the six 1-1/2" plugs on the sides of the block (three on each side).
Your oil pan does not look like an OEM oil pan. Post three pictures: the profile of the pan, an overhead shot of the inside of the pan, and the
pickup tube. We might be able to indentify it. lastly, you might as well bead-blast the pan's exterior and evaluate its overall condition,
it might only need a repair and be good to go.
Bring the u-joint to a parts store with a helpful, knowledgeable counter and they'll tell you which size it is. Ask for a brand name
replacement, such as Spicer.
LO
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LO,
Thanks. I was just reading some of your posts on the BBF issues. You guys are all very knowledgable on these things!!! I am trying to get it up and running as soon as possible and unfortunately as inexpensively as possible as well.
I will post the pics tonight after I pull the pan.
Jim
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Really nice boat.
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OK. Got the pan pulled and found a pin hole leak right above the drain plug. How can I tell what pan/part number I have to get a new one? Or is there a way to fix it?
Here are the pics.
(http://[attach=1])
(http://[attach=2][attach=3][attach=4])
Is there a place to find out what this pan is?
Here is the pump and pick-up part # D5UE AA
(http://[attach=5])
Ragin, Thanks.
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pan looks stock to me .I would grind the arer to bare metal around the pinhole and weld it up with wirefeed. it might not weld if the rust has eaten away too much materil but you have nothing to lose.good luck
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What you have there is not a stock 460 passenger car pan & pickup by any means, it is a
somewhat rare, low production, industrial engine oil pan & pickup. It is a deep sump 1/2-length
oil pan with a special front sump pickup (D9TE-6622-CA) which bolts to a rear sump style oil pump. (Ford went to a
full-length deep pan and rear sump pickup shortly afterwards.)
My guess is that they are almost impossible to find. I have only seen two in my life, and one of
them is yours in these pictures. The other one, I personally own (both the pan & pickup).
The rust looks localized and might be only on the exterior (not rusted through). My recommendation
is that you evaluate it's structural integrity; if it seems essentially solid (not as rusted out as it
looks) then simply get the pan beadblasted and have the small oil leak (the pin hole) tig welded and
you'll be good to go. I would also suggest that you ask the welder to add a vertical "slosh baffle" at
the deepest part of the pan right were it begins to rise to the shallower part.
If you need to replace that pan, I will consider selling you the one that I have for a very reasonable price (or maybe even an exchange).
LO
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LO,
Thanks and that's why this site is so great. Always someone with a vast knowledge of these boats. This also explains why I couldn't find a match anywhere even after hours and days of searching :banghead:.
So I went on base today and used the auto shop blaster. The pan is pitted but looks like the only place that is really bad is the whole on the front. The only problem is, there isn't just on whole, but 3 - 4 in a small pattern.
(http://[attach=1])
Here is the pan cleaned up:
(http://[attach=2])(http://[attach=3])
I don't know much about welding. Can that size be prepared? Do you know how much that would be? I think I would feel better if I had a replacement in better quality and I am interested in your replacement if you want to sell.
I am putting in the freeze plugs and changing the U-joints and the pan/gasket is all I have keeping me from the water!
Jim
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I think your oil pan could be welded in less than 90 seconds and be leak-free again. Having said that, the corrosion on its exterior gives
me pause as to how long it might be before it springs a new leak somewhere else. Could be good for years to come or it could spring a new
leak this summer. None of us can tell how porous the sheetmetal is from your pictures, you need to evaluate it yourself and draw your
own conclusion.
I looked around the shop and it turns out that I have two of those oil pans (just one pickup), so I'd be willing to let one go. They are solid as
new but will need a very light bead blast in order to remove a patch of surface oxidation (actually scotch brite/WD-40 might do it). It's hard to
tell from your photos but after looking at my pans I am surpsied at how vertical the rise is from the deep part to the shallow part; adding a
vertical slosh baffle isn't as necessary as I thought. Also, the pickup design puts the pickup box at the rear of the sump (near the drain plug)
which makes this oil pan design a mid-sump pan in effect, and in a jet boat I think that's certainly better than a true front sump pan. My guess
is the engine will hold 8 quarts with filter, etc, when you reinstall it.
For this particular oil pan type, I'd want $90 shipped for the one I have. That's about 20% the price of a new jet boat pan so I don't think
it's a bad deal. And it's a direct fit for your current setup.
Call (weekdays) or PM if interested,
LO
310-435-1900
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How bout weld then pour 15 and line-x it. The drive line you have is hard to find as well. I just had a failure in mine and found a couple as back ups.
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LO,
Thanks. I'm going to take it to a machine shop by the base tomorrow and see if they can do it (and how much). Then maybe the POR 15 YM recommended? Never saw that stuff before.
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Finally got the pan welded. Carrol's welding in National City! Pat Carrol is a great guy. I was just driving by and pulled in on a Monday morning and Pat told me had just returned from Parker. He is a boater and has a place in Parker. I grew up there so we had some things to talk about. He had one of his guys weld it for me while I waited and only charged me a 30 pack of bullets!
(http://[attach=2])
POR 15 came in today and going to be able to install the pan tomorrow.
(http://[attach=3])
Changed Plugs, freeze plugs, U-joints, thrust bearing seal, fixed pan and really cleaned out the engine bay. So ready to get on the water now.
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I have researched and read and then read some more and now I am more confused. So here is the question:
What brand and grade oil should I use for a stock early 80's 460?
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I run vr1 20/50 in my 460, 9qts val and 1 qt lucas(10qt pan)....auto zone had it on sale last month and bought out two stores worth.
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Is that 1 qt of Lucas 20-50 or something esle? Why do you add the Lucas? As you can see, my pan is stock so 6 quarts. Would you run 5 of the VR1 and 1 of Lucas?
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Its an oil additive. I have been using it for years now. The bottle says 1 qt lucas per 5 of your regular oil. I only use 1 to my 9 and its really thick stuff. I also run a wix/napa gold oil filter.
http://www.lucasoil.com/articlelist1-13/0/HeavyDutyOilStabilizer (http://www.lucasoil.com/articlelist1-13/0/HeavyDutyOilStabilizer)
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Thanks. I will run 1/2 quart to my 5 1/2 oil. Thanks for the tip. Hoping to be on the water by next weekend.
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could he have powder coated the pan to help insure that it didnt corrode more and be stronger than rustoleum
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What you have there is not a stock 460 passenger car pan & pickup by any means, it is a
somewhat rare, low production, industrial engine oil pan & pickup. It is a deep sump 1/2-length
oil pan with a special front sump pickup (D9TE-6622-CA) which bolts to a rear sump style oil pump. (Ford went to a
full-length deep pan and rear sump pickup shortly afterwards.)
My guess is that they are almost impossible to find. I have only seen two in my life, and one of
them is yours in these pictures. The other one, I personally own (both the pan & pickup).
The rust looks localized and might be only on the exterior (not rusted through). My recommendation
is that you evaluate it's structural integrity; if it seems essentially solid (not as rusted out as it
looks) then simply get the pan beadblasted and have the small oil leak (the pin hole) tig welded and
you'll be good to go. I would also suggest that you ask the welder to add a vertical "slosh baffle" at
the deepest part of the pan right were it begins to rise to the shallower part.
If you need to replace that pan, I will consider selling you the one that I have for a very reasonable price (or maybe even an exchange).
LO
is this the style of pump u said ford than went to
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I used por-15. The rustoleum can was for something else. That POR-15 is super hard.
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I used por-15. The rustoleum can was for something else. That POR-15 is super hard.
biggest thing is that por15 penetrates into the metal and prevents rust. powdercoating just would cover it up and there might be a chance of it showing up again later on.
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is this the style of pump u said ford than went to?
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14753.0;attach=83914;image)
That is an oil pump pickup from a 1980's-on Ford E-series van with a 385 Series engine in it.
LO
p.s.: Nice D0VE-A block. Consider an HV pump if that engine's going into your boat. (let's not hijack this thread; call if you have questions about this.)
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Finally got the pan welded.
That patch work looks great and you extended the life of a part that is no longer made. :thumbup: Good luck with the assembly.
LO
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Ok. Finally finished everything and put the engine back in. It definitely was a great experience and thanks to all of the help from the pros on here, I didn't mess anything up.
(http://[attach=1])
I also sanded, cut, polished, and waxed! It looks awesome now.
(http://[attach=2])
Now I need to get it to El Cap and get it wet! I need to reset the timing. Is 29 - 30 at 3000 about right? It is a stock 460 Hardin build.
Again, thanks for all of the help.
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Pics
(http://[attach=1][attach=2])