SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: walshmotorsports on August 13, 2008, 04:24:28 PM
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I said I will start a thread on my own 454 to show how the right combination can easily make the number you want and I will take you through the steps and try to post as many pics along the way. Also I will dyno the motor and show you usable power, not in the 7000rpm range where most jets never see. I am a fairly new Dad so it will be slow so hang in there. First in my boat 1978 challenger is a pretty stock 454 Torquer II intake 750dp just had Jet perf. go through it and a DUI dist. Untouched dominator pump with lilricks gps ran 56.8 @4600rpm at parker. First I am just going to rebuild my 049's with some clean-up no porting and a cam change. This should put me well over the 525 mark. I will do my best to run this over to the dyno to back it up. Then as mone allows I will port the heads and step up the cam a little and be over 600 hp on Westech Dyno. I want you guys to know I am only trying to help others realize how important a combination really is. I am using Isky solid flat tappet cams, no roller. First cam is around 240/250@.050 and .600/.580 lift. (cam sheet not in front of me) my valve job is done and I believe this is were the biggest gains are. Now I use a 2.25 intake/1.94 exhaut valve. The valve area was opened up to unshroud the valves otherwise this valve size is pointless. Just a valve job from anywhere will NOT make the numbers. If you've ever heard of a mag called "Engine Masters" One of there top head guys is my buddy Brice. Hands down the work he does compared to a regular valve job is incredible. Not sure if I can post his shop& phone# on here. I am holding my flow charts from him and not sure if everyone knows there is a "good port" and a "bad port" on every head. GM oval port#353049 Good port stock intake @.550 254.8cfm Good port w/short turn clean-up @.550lift 301.8cfm Exhaust stock@.550lift171.1 Exhaust w/short turn cleanup and valve job@.550lift 219cfm I gotta run but I will post more in a day or 2. Later "D"
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Where's the proof? ???
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:-X
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Proof? I don't know if you read it all but I am just gathering up the parts right now, when it goes to the dyno I will take pics, post actual dyno sheet and try to video it as well. Just so you know you asked for the proof let me get 1 thing straight. I am not marketing anything! I work my A$$ off and want the best bang for the buck when I build engines or what ever I do, just like everyone else on here. I am just trying to show some what I have learned and do not build engines for a living.This is not a sales pitch nor am I trying to make a buck. But if anyone thinks I am B.S.ing them I will be happy to have you stop by my home and see the heads,boat,etc. Get my point? Also I am no high roller, I work 6 days a week to to stay a float, just trying to help others like me. So what proof do you want....
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I don't think pw_Tony was questioning the build but referring to the subject line "HP Ratings...Proof. 600hp 454 pump gas!"
I for one would like to see the results of a mild build with some good head work done.
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Thanks for posting WMS; good luck with the build. I'm interested in seeing your results.
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Your right! I started this because of another "HP" thread, so I thought I would try to help others with what I've had past experience building......but the title is mis-leading. Sorry about that. Anyways I didn't want to post old dyno sheets and their is some minor changes in cam profiles to build more usable power in a jet boat. Also just bought a DART oval port intake off "Racing junk" for $200 bucks brand new. It is a single plane 4150 carb style part #DRT-41214000 This manifold has a great mid-section for velocity and runner speed 1 of the best with some port work withOUT loosing bottom end! Most single planes seem flat. An area of big concern on intakes is called the short turn, intakes are cast by the 100's and really benifit from good port work, really widens your power. I will be shopping for a annual discharge 850 holley next! "D"
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Sorry bout that, I thought you already had dyno'd it ;)
What kind of dyno does Westech have, is it a dynojet?
And will you be looking for corrected numbers, or uncorrected numbers for the 600hp goal?
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Westech uses a Superflow 90290. You asked if it was a dynojet, I've only seen them in a wheel dyno? Do they even make a engine dyno? Not sure.The #'s will be corrected we will be in south OC so the correction with air den. moisture etc is ususlly less than 2-3% anyway. Gotta run talk to you guys tomarrow. "D"
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Westech uses a Superflow 90290. You asked if it was a dynojet, I've only seen them in a wheel dyno? Do they even make a engine dyno? Not sure.The #'s will be corrected we will be in south OC so the correction with air den. moisture etc is ususlly less than 2-3% anyway. Gotta run talk to you guys tomarrow. "D"
Very cool, so is your buddy porting the heads? I have a friend I will be porting the same heads here for shortly, mind I ask what some percentages he is using? Bowl, throat, choke point?
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If ya don't have 30 deg seats.. back cut the intakes. It helps low lift flow tremendisly!
Low lift flow is what starts it all when the valve opens.
Oh 25" or 28" of water? Just the basics is where most of gains are. ;)
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If ya don't have 30 deg seats.. back cut the intakes. It helps low lift flow tremendisly!
Low lift flow is what starts it all when the valve opens.
Oh 25" or 28" of water? Just the basics is where most of gains are. ;)
Have 30;45;60 cutted into the head, and a 75* bowl blend, just curious about some dimensions so possibly the 600hp pump gas can be duplicated
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enough horse power talk,,, :banghead: who has the fastest boat already ???? >:D
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I would like to have all the answers but truthfuly thats why he is my cyl head guy. I have seen him do wonders for many "Engine Masters" challenges he is an awsome guy and really strives to get the most for each customer. Sounds like you really do some quallity head work, nice to see! I just build a couple of motors a year for xtra$ but take my time and it's not my living. But as you know how important cyl. head work really is! Again I don't want to cross the line for advertising on a forum, do you know if I can post his shop and/or number? if not then you can pm me I don't know the specs on his flow bench. My goal is to help other get a few more ideas and a couple more HP if it helps 1 person run a little harder then it was worth my time.....
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Oh you asked about porting....I have 2 sets of BBC heads #353049 first set is to do a killer valve job increase valve size and blend the bowls, not a full port job. I will be going to a solid cam as well and try to run my beater motor to the dyno just to see whats cookin' . I am building another 454 with the same casting # full port job. solid cam, single carb deal that will make at least 600HP. Why 2 motors you ask? I don't want my river toy down for 1 and the #2 reason hmmmmoney! I have to do it over a couple of months and the small details in a quality engine really do make a difference as well. "D"
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Sounds like a cool build up. According to Duane's Impeller chart at HTP I am putting out 649.10 HP with a B (dominator) impeller at 5950 RPM's. Again, I take some of these charts with a grain of salt, they are estimates and not real HP, but close I guess. This is on a tight rebuilt pump. I have Brodix BB2's CNC ported and Comp Cams Roller Cam Xtreme Marine. This is .030 all forged internal BBC.
T.J.
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It's fine to post your bud's number. I have posted my good friend's number a few times here no problem, and he came in 3rd at Engine Masters Challenge twice ;D He's where I have gotten most of my "hp" knowledge from, or lack there of ;)
Also, I don't know if you can really call it a junkyard build or budget build if you're having a master porter port the heads, we all know how much money can lay into developed ported heads, how crucial the head porting is to the rest of the engine parts, and how the HP is really in the heads.... but I dunno I'm a crazy :screwy: ;D
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Ya I know what you about being a budget deal I am probably going to have about $900-$1000 in a set of 049's went they are fully ported and ready to bolt-on. You probably know better than I but when these heads are done correctly to get the same results how much will a pair of after market heads cost. Also I am not stroking the motor, just trying to keep the cost down for guys like myself that don't have an endless wallet. In my opinion and thats all it is is an opinion if I can pull out a basicily stock 454 and make 600 usuable HP for around $3500 bucks I think in todays economy thats a pretty good budget motor? :-\Well lets see if I can make it really happen. And my head guy is Bryce from Dr J's in orange county, 714 943-3404 he usually works a little with people who say I sent you. Going over their in an hour to drop off valve spring stuff! I'll snap some pics! :o "D"
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While you're down there, ask him about some facts on the heads, valve angles, sizes, back cuts, bowl percentage, etc..... so possibly the other back yard builders can come up with decently similar results :)
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The machine shop I use advised me to give the '049 oval ports that came on the motor away and buy the plain-wrap Dart Iron Eagles from Summit. They were under $1200 for the pair and he said I'd have more in the old heads by the time I was done -- and they still wouldn't come close in performance. The heads came with new stainless valves and CompCams springs, retainers, keepers, rocker studs and guide plates. The exhaust port is raised .40" for better flow. The only difference is that the cast Dart logo is machined away and in it's place it's engraved "Summit".
Cheers, Mark
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Sounds like you found a great pair of heads for yourself Mark! Maybe your old heads won't come close in performance....... but mine will. I also believe when I finish my pump gas, 454, solid flat tappet engine with dyno proven results it will decent set-up. Cyl head work is very crucial, there is some great ones and not so great as well. No disrespect but just selling you a pair of out of the box heads is much easier than what route I am taking. Good luck with yor summit heads....Whats the part # anyway? "D"
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While you're down there, ask him about some facts on the heads, valve angles, sizes, back cuts, bowl percentage, etc..... so possibly the other back yard builders can come up with decently similar results :)
I have ran most of your questions by Brice (head guy) flow bench, corrected hp or un-corrected etc... Please understand the little specs that really help are some of what I and others pay him for. He is a business man and a good friend. Understand I feel better if you called him direct on the specs you asked for. he is a family man and it is his living. Also from your character I think you know your way around a engine pretty well yourself....Right? Please don't think I'm holding back, I'm just respecting Moms secret recipie! He is pretty cool and probably will answer any questions on the details of the heads like back cut angles etc....Thanks! "D"
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Crap I'm tired, note all the type O's tonight... :banghead:
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The Summit/Dart Iron Eagle is http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D152125&N=700+4294908216+4294840133+4294889122+400304+4294925232+4294838998+115&autoview=sku
They've gone up $60/ea since I bought mine but still a very good deal for what you get. They say Summit on the outside but Dart Iron Eagle on the inside.
For this engine we basically followed one of the car magazine builds. Pretty mild combination that netted (assuming you believe what's published) around 539hp at 5600 RPM. This is with 8.5:1 flat tops and a fairly modest hydraulic cam. Sounded nearly perfect for a boat motor. Only change I made was in the cam, picked one with a 112* LSA instead of the magazines 110*.
Cheers, Mark
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Sounds like you have a great combination! What hull is it in? I see your local, maybe see you in Parker....Thanks."D"