SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: Blue on May 22, 2008, 04:18:20 PM
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How do people come up with there horsepower ratings? I think 95% of them are bullshit. I am tired of looking at a 454 with an aluminum intake/ headers/cam telling me its 550HP. If you read honest dyno reports BB strokers,singleplain,jesel,1050 dominator,aluminum head motors are making 550-650 honest HP.
Sorry for the rant but it takes big $$$$ to make big power and I bet alot of people are off there HP rating by at least 100 or so. At least the people I have talked to lately and dealt with.
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I actually do like the extended impeller RPM charts/HP. Decently accurate without having to dyno your motor, and of course people only look at the corrected numbers after a dynotune
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How do people come up with there horsepower ratings? I think 95% of them are bullshit. I am tired of looking at a 454 with an aluminum intake/ headers/cam telling me its 550HP. If you read honest dyno reports BB strokers,singleplain,jesel,1050 dominator,aluminum head motors are making 550-650 honest HP.
Sorry for the rant but it takes big $$$$ to make big power and I bet alot of people are off there HP rating by at least 100 or so. At least the people I have talked to lately and dealt with.
Talk to different people.
But I am surprised that you don't believe a 454 can't have 550 HP with a aluminum intake, headers, and cam. That BB stroker needs a different engine builder.
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Talk to different people.
But I am surprised that you don't believe a 454 can't have 550 HP with a aluminum intake, headers, and cam. That BB stroker needs a different engine builder.
Depends if you're talking real world or magazine/internet add a HP math
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Depends if you're talking real world or magazine/internet add a HP math
???
A stock LS6 had a under-rated 450 HP, you don't believe that adding a modern aftermarket cam, aluminim intake, and headers will make 550 HP?
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Hearing those kinds of people talk helps you know when to raise the bs flag. I got a bone stock 350 that makes 800hp with a 2 barrel and cast iron exhausts and all I had to do was add some octane booster to my tank and put in some of those four pronged spark plugs. I'm running 8 flat in the quarter with it in my 67 caprice and a powerglide all original numbers matching! and yes it came with a factory 350 in 67 so mine is a one of a kind worth millions..... :screwy: yeah I've heard those guys too!!!
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???
A stock LS6 had a under-rated 450 HP, you don't believe that adding a modern aftermarket cam, aluminim intake, and headers will make 550 HP?
They changed the standards for hp ratings somewhere in the late 80's early 90's. Used to be SAE gross now it's SAE net. By today's standards I think the LS6 only makes 450hp. So a real 550hp is pretty hard get.
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???
A stock LS6 had a under-rated 450 HP, you don't believe that adding a modern aftermarket cam, aluminim intake, and headers will make 550 HP?
I don't believe a stock 454, even with higher compression, will make that power. Ls6 already came with a spiffy cam, lifters, so adding an intake and carb, or different cam all together, won't get 550
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Here is 454 Chev motor that is race built they didn't even use one Chev part all after market,
why? Only made 662hp all after market parts. What does it take to build one with a stock block and crank to make 600 hp this is
from the pump gas shootout popular hot rodding winner took home $ 27,000 and it to was
a small block and no parts built by Chev 673 hp all after market. Would like to see a Dyno run on Chev parts,block,crank
, Ford 403cub in 400 Ford block, 400Ford crank =672hp and not race shop built man, wife, two kids. I think some Dyno test, flow bench test and sales adds are like a women they will tell you any thing to get the money, and laffffffff all the way to the bank No they had to turn 400 sbc 5000 to get 552hp out of it race built motor. not
chev motor a after market clone.
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I disagree.
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Chebby beat up Ford ;D
2sav..........shit starter :'(
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I have to disagree with the LS6 making 550 real world HP. Even watching Horsepower TV, headers,ignition,exhust,intake,etc. is good for about 35HP and costs ($1600) Im sorry but an extra 100HP is hard to swallow with a couple bolt-ons.
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Chebby beat up Ford ;D
2sav..........shit starter :'(
I think what he was saying was that the chevy didnt have a thing in it that was actually chevy but the ford used a ford block and crank to make killer power. :banghead:
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so my naturally aspirated bbc does not put out 1500hp like i was told, damn i need to quit being so gulable ;D, hp ratings seem to almost be a part of the game, it is whoever is the better liar, just like top speed, you never know for sure
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rpm's/impellers tell no lies ::)
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I have to disagree with the LS6 making 550 real world HP. Even watching Horsepower TV, headers,ignition,exhust,intake,etc. is good for about 35HP and costs ($1600) Im sorry but an extra 100HP is hard to swallow with a couple bolt-ons.
I was saying that 550 real hp is HARD to get. In the 60's they rated them without alternator, water pump, a/c, smog pump, or any other accessories. With SAE net formula, they have those accessories hooked up when the factory gives out ratings. No way do I think a LS6 with just a cam and intake swap is going to make 550. The LS6 not only had a good cam to begin with, it also had a pretty good dual plane intake and rectangular port heads that flowed pretty good out of the box. It might be able to with all the right parts such as roller cam, port work, msd ign, step headers, single plane intake, etc. But then it would make all that power in the upper rpm range, not really a good jet boat motor. You would have to really do your homework to get to that. Most stock boat 454's are oval port motors and are closer to make around 350hp.
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I have a 1976 eliminator daycruiser with a 454. I have the original stock specs on the Hardin marine motor and it tells me that my boat is rated 367 hp It has 990 chevelle heads with the big ports and is 8.8:1 compression. It is my understanding that to bring that 367 up to 500 hp with bolt on parts would cost a huge amount of money. Like well over 3k
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i know what you are saying. my VR4 put 410 to all 4 wheels last time i dynoed it so that is roughly 500 at the crank. and i have about 30k invested into the motor alone. (dont ask why) if anyone on here wants to trade for a late 60s muscle car, i am down. anyway i get these fast and furious guys that tell me there civic is putting 350 to the wheels with no turbo and no matter what points i bring up to prove them wrong i cant convince them they are full of shit.
i wish i could carry a dyno around with me to prove these idiots wrong. i would love to see there face when there civic lays down 80 hp to the wheels... ;D
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i know what you are saying. my VR4 put 410 to all 4 wheels last time i dynoed it so that is roughly 500 at the crank. and i have about 30k invested into the motor alone. (dont ask why) if anyone on here wants to trade for a late 60s muscle car, i am down. anyway i get these fast and furious guys that tell me there civic is putting 350 to the wheels with no turbo and no matter what points i bring up to prove them wrong i cant convince them they are full of shit.
i wish i could carry a dyno around with me to prove these idiots wrong. i would love to see there face when there civic lays down 80 hp to the wheels... ;D
Ask them if the have the stock half shafts.....when the say yes tell them the HP is full of crap. Stock ones shatter around 250hp at launch...I have seen it many times!
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ya i know. i had to convert to 1000hp carbon fiber drive shafts on my car. and those were not cheap. but when you are doing an oil change they look pretty cool.. haha..
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rpm's/impellers tell no lies ::)
Your right , but tell it to everyone else that dont have a motor to dyno . Assuming your pump (of course this is all realative) is fresh and tight enough to kick out a correct number , it will within reason , get pretty close to a suggested HP number . The 2006 engine masters chevy 505 kicked out 8 hundered sum odd HP , on a dyno , with multiple runs , judges , and several of the other engine buliding competitors watching , and a spec proving tear down afterward to prove it all . I guess that might not be enough though .
There are no secrets out there . Take a claimed motor recipe and build it , find out if it's true . Ralph made a great point about buying a gasket set to see if what your buying is correct . Spend a few bucks (after all , this is HP we're talkin about) on some dyno time and make sure that the muther fuker is sellin you every last bit of HP he's got . < --- (period)
-beerjet-
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Your right , but tell it to everyone else that dont have a motor to dyno . Assuming your pump (of course this is all realative) is fresh and tight enough to kick out a correct number , it will within reason , get pretty close to a suggested HP number . The 2006 engine masters chevy 505 kicked out 8 hundered sum odd HP , on a dyno , with multiple runs , judges , and several of the other engine buliding competitors watching , and a spec proving tear down afterward to prove it all . I guess that might not be enough though .
There are no secrets out there . Take a claimed motor recipe and build it , find out if it's true . Ralph made a great point about buying a gasket set to see if what your buying is correct . Spend a few bucks (after all , this is HP we're talkin about) on some dyno time and make sure that the muther fuker is sellin you every last bit of HP he's got . < --- (period)
-beerjet-
I agree 100% Omar
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I agree 100% Omar
I have a mechanic I take my shit to because I dont trust myself with vehicles that I depend on , on a daily basis with . We started talking jet boats and he told me pretty much exactlty what a jet pump does anyways . There's no way around it .
And he's a big time Mopar *** . God bless him .
-beerjet-
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It really doesn't matter to me what the total HP is, as long as I can convince my insurance that it is only 230HP.
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I know you guys like to handicap yourselves with BBC and BBF but I don't see why 500HP is so hard to find with low tech/low budget means. The motor we put together for my Road Runner ten years ago used "smog" block and heads. Most builders use 2.18/1.81 inch valves then port for more power. Flowbench testing showed great flow with smaller valves so we use Ferrea 2.14/1.74 in late model 452 heads. It works out to a flow balance of 77-80% between intake and exhaust. That is well prepped race car territory folks.
Stock iron heads, Eagle rods to get the right ratio, 9.75 cr Diamond (off the shelf) pistons, Holley Street Dominator manifold (again smog) and a solid cam 284/294 and 540/560 lift, 750 Holley carb and 473 cu in. got us 500 ft lbs of torque from 3000-5600 rpm (535 at 4500!) and 540 hp from 5500-6500rpm. It is all about careful selection of parts. Ford guys could probably do this but I don't know about you Chevy guys cuz the factory doesn't give you all very good crank/rod/cam geometry to work with.
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I find it difficult to believe that a cam that was designed in 1969 (LS6 came out in 1970) can't be improved enough to get a extra 100 HP with the addition of the newer cam, headers, intake, and some jetting. Seriously, I have no idea what duration and lift the LS6 had but figuring on when it was designed it can't be that great of a cam as compared to today's cam profiles.
But hey, no argument here. A BBC with a new cam, headers, and intake max's out at 549 HP and 550 HP is just a flat out lie and BS. ;D
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I should rephrase. I DO believe it is possible to get 550hp, with enough Cam and RPM. I DON'T believe it is possible to get that power at a lower RPM like these jet boats like. What's the peak flow on a stock oval port and cast iron head anyway?
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Besides when I built my motor I wanted a flat,high torque curve. It's cool to say I have 722HP but that was at 7400 on the dyno. I am most proud of 658ft.lbs. below 5700rpm. Torque is way more important in my book
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Besides when I built my motor I wanted a flat,high torque curve. It's cool to say I have 722HP but that was at 7400 on the dyno. I am most proud of 658ft.lbs. below 5700rpm. Torque is way more important in my book
You're right, it is cool when you say that. :o
But I think you're lieing and that you can't have more than say... 550 HP! >:D
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Hey, everyone can hit 5800-6000 RPM with thier A equipt jets, right? Easy 550 HP...
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Hey, everyone can hit 5800-6000 RPM with thier A equipt jets, right? Easy 550 HP...
See, I told you! Would Speedy lie? >:D
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When I got my pump rebuild and took my boat out I lost 300 rpms but my boat feels much much faster. Just cause your worn out pump spins 6000 rpms does not mean you are making 800 hp spinning a A.
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Could somebody post a link to that HP/RPM chart for boats. I hate to ask cuz I know it has been up a lot but I just never copied it. I'll gladly pay you tomorrow for a chart today...
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:o >:( >:( >:( Sorry I had to ask but I had to know. Thanks for the linkey
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I'm pretty new here, I'm Darren. My thoughts are yes and no on the 500hp thing. Yes quite a few people are full of B.S. with their HP claims.....but the 500 hp 454 is very easy to obtain with todays products. My own 78 challenger I am getting my parts together for the new stock stroke 454 .030 over. I will be using a solid flat tappet approx .250/.260 @050 dur .595/613 lift.Some say to big of cam, I also back up the cam a few degrees to put the power where I want it. 049 heads, I use a DUI HEI dist, 10:5 to 1 comp. pump gas. single plane intake wilson spacer. I have many hours on westech dyno's I will see approx 630 HP. it's not the first time doing this. One of the key players is the cyl. head work. Yes porting and larger valves but for less than aftermarket heads, this can be done, no problem. I live in the Long Beach area if you would like to go to the dyno with me pm me when I start a build thread.I am shooting for sept. or oct to be complete.
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I would be interested in watching a thread of a decent build with the dyno run being the final say.
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If you guys don't mind I am no high roller, it will take a few months but I would be glad to start a thread "600+ HP" made easy! I just picked up my used "sweet deal" 049's casting# 353049, next week they will get cleaned&magged. I will start the new thread then. Looking forward to the dyno, talk to you guys later, "D" Heading to parker july 25th weekend I stay at Riverland stop by and say hi, I will have my boat with the stock 454 puttin around.
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you boys ever seen a grown man naked?
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you boys ever seen a grown man naked?
WTF ???
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you boys ever seen a grown man naked?
WTF ???
I think lilrick has been hanging out with beerjet :o ;D
And according to the chart above I have over 750 hp !! ::) ::)
[attachthumb=1]
Forget the fact it was a Jacuzzi YJ pump, it still had an A impeller :sly: .
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Whats up Lilrick! We need to get to Parker! And I haven't seen any grown men naked lately, I got kicked out of the gym lockeroom again! :o
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my motor on my thread was ran first with 990 heads and we got 625 hp 540 torgue at 6600.Its a 468 standerd stroke. the 990 heads flow cc's ##S are 264 at 500, 292 a 600, lift and they dont advertise it at 700 but is around 310 because you have to machine them for bigger springs like I had done to mine. they were also match ported around the runners. this was pretty expensive done by clay smith racing. I have the sheet to prove it. I can post if you you guys want. the efi is probly about a 50 hp gain over carbs. that being said. I bolted on the rhs 360 cc ported heads and that vacume pump and gaind 105 110 hp. :o
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Sounds like you have a nice motor, I do have a few questions. your match porting and it was pretty expensive? Did he do a full port job? Did you dyno a nice carb like an 850 or a 950 to get the 50HP over the EFI? I have done this back to back on a dyno with F.A.S.T. EFI and I have a friend who works at Mo-Tech. We have seen 18hp once 22hp switching from a junk carb but a properly tuned carb can work very well. and being at a dyno and figuring out the volumetric efic. (how much air/fuel your cubic inches) can process at 100% you can tune an 850 annular carb pretty close to any EFI. Please don't get me wrong I think efi is a great thing I just look at my weekend at the river if I need a holley bowl gasket or I need someone with a laptop to remap my EFI program, which one can I find in the camp ground a little easier...What kind of boat is this motor in? You again prove my point a 454 can make over 500hp pretty easier, thanks for all the info! "D"
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Kraig at BDS said I would see around 50 hp gain with my fast efi over my 2 660's. Speed O Motive told me the same thing. Im not basing it on anything so it could just be a selling point bs thing. I wanted it for other reasions tho. mostly cause my nitrous set up. There is no need to re tune it on the water after it came off the dyno, besides adjusting the idle and possibly the low mid rage if needed but even then you will only need to do it once. My 990 heads were only ported at the top of the runners no bowl work. my RHS heads were fully ported by speed o motive for 400$ but are alum.. for the work on my 990s was like 2 gs for all of the valves seats springs porting and maching for a 700 plus cam. they really came out nice but I wasnt expecting it to be that much. So Im holding on to those heads for my 71 nova build. I think hp is all in the top end, good heads and a solid roller will go a long way on any big block. I dont know my efic but my throdle body is 1060 cfm and my air fuel ratio is 11-13 across the board. Check out my other thread.
http://www.socaljetboats.com/index.php?topic=4372.0
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Two grand and they didn't do any port work around the valves? :o :o
Some big gains can be had with only minor work in that area.
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Sounds like you have a nice Engine set-up thanks again for all the info. What kinda boat is it in, does it run pretty good?
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EFI is better for all around drivability - but I have NEVER seen an EFI out Horsepower a carb both properly tuned.
My buddy owns a well known tuning company, one that makes their business off of creating EFI modifications. They dyno cars efery day, and he sais the same thing, EFI outperforms carbs in every aspect except peek HP.