SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: AQUAHOLIC on April 11, 2007, 07:59:25 PM
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ok so i took my boat out for the first time this year. in the off season i had replaced the floor the trusses the motor mounts the transium and the engine.
after the break in of the motor last weekend i played thru the rpm range. and at idle i have a pretty bad vibration it then goes away at about 1200 rpm and it is smooth up until about 3200 rpm then the vibration is back until about 3700rpm then in cleans up and is smooth again. does anyone know what my problem is.
my guesses are the engine is not alligned correctly, the u joint is bad that connects the motor to the jet drive. or the panther jet drive is going bad.
any info would be great.
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I need way more information. What engine do you have ? What year is that engine ? Was the engine balanced ?
A common problem with Panther pumps is the shafts are weak. In turn you could have a bent shaft which will cause a major vibration, but it probably would not go away at the given rpms that you are talking about. Another problem is this, you could have a total imbalanced impeller; i.e. chip, crack, dents, chunk of wood. If your u-joint is going bad, it will vibrate, An easy fix.
If the driveline angle is beyond 4 degrees it could cause vibration also.
Jim
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Jim????
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it shouldn't do that!
Replace the u-joints and check to see if the shaft has play in it. Who did the work on the floors and stringers?
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my name is tony. i dont know what you mean by "jim?"
i did the work on the floor and stringers myself. that is why i think it an alignment problem. it was my first time doing that kind of work on a boat so i am sure i did a few things wrong. anyway ya i am goign to start with the ujoint and hopefully that fixes it. if not i hope i can modify the engine mounts or tweak them a bit to line everything up.
any more info you might have would be helpfull. could this be my jet drive. everything i have looked at onthis boat has needed to be replaced so i dont have too much faith in the fact that the guy i bought it off of said the jet drive was brand new.
also i can only get about 4500rpm out of the motor. what is the common redline or top speed for a big block jet boat.
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ok more info. it is a 21 foot crusader jet boat. the motor is a 454 bored 20 over mid size marine cam some head work and it was pro built by a engine shop in town. the year may not be exact but the boat is a 1980 so i am guessing the motor is from around that period. as far as the engine being balanced.i dont think it was i started it for the first time once it was in the boat. Thank you for all your help. i guess i am going to replace the u joint first since that seems to be the easiest step. once i get it off i am going to run the motor without the jet drive connected to see if maybe the motor is causing this but i dont think so. How do i check the impeller of the jet drive? also the gear oil in the jet drive looks a little milky like there is a bit of water in there could this cause a vibration? and how do you get that oil out of there. i cant find a drain plug anywhere.
thanks for all your help
tony
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when he said jim...he was referring to jim of Emanon Performance Marine.....hes probably the guy that could answer your questions for ya.
I am sure he will chime in here soon.
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oh yeah....welcome to the site tony ;D
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ya jim seems to know what he is talking about. thanks for the welcome to the site.
this vibration problem drives me nuts its like driving a nice sport car with squeeling breaks. the girls on my boat said they did not even notice but that is all i could hear. any advice would be greatly appreciated.
this site is sweet expect to see a lot of me on here. i will post some pics of my project boat in a bit.. cant do it now i am at work..
looking forward to seeing some of you on the river sometime.. is anyone on here from the blythe area? my boat is at Macintire park in blythe ca.
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I merged the 2 threads you created so everyone is on the same page. ;D
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Right now this is like finding a neeedle in a hay stack. So even though Brad may not like it we need to talk by phone, I just need more info. You can post everything we talk about. Except what I say about Brad. I would really like to see the patient before I make a final diagnosis. What are your plans this weekend ?
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... You can post everything we talk about. Except what I say about Brad...
Now that is freakin funny! LMFAO ;D
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i got no problem talking over the phone. This weekend is the long beach grand prix. that is where i will be this weekend. my boat is in Blythe. i keep it there at the river trailer we got over there. I cant work on the boat until i get out there. this problem just drove me nuts last weekend and i need to fix it before i can enjoy driving the boat.
also here are some pics to introduce my boat to this wonderfull site.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi15.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa399%2Fvr4tony%2Fpictures128.jpg&hash=922fb20607140316772765419c8ff9aed44dadba)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi15.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa399%2Fvr4tony%2Fpictures112small.jpg&hash=d2685523efee396912aec76a523d0524341e85d4)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi15.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa399%2Fvr4tony%2Fpictures108small.jpg&hash=0f659854dcc5d8710c68d237285fbc1241bee457)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi15.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa399%2Fvr4tony%2Fpictures122small.jpg&hash=e007d6d2b805cdb2de376518fe13cd355bd9d275)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi15.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa399%2Fvr4tony%2Fth_pictures140.jpg&hash=0ed73caa62dd2cf5eae503b879264d67970f47d4) (http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a399/vr4tony/?action=view¤t=pictures140.flv)
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i guess i am going to replace the u joint first since
Tony,
Just disconnect the driveline and run the motor before you go out and spend money on new parts. Running the engine with the pump disconnected will tell you right away if it's the pump or not.
Unfortunately, I've read a lot of misinformation given about the Panther pumps in here already......ughhh.
Unlike the Berks, Doms, AT's and others, Panthers come stock with a stainless steel impeller. It's not real easy to chip, nick or gouge one to cause a vibration. Engine alignment needs to be within 1? to 3? of the centerline of the pump shaft, if it's off you run a chance of a vibration. You can also get a vibration from something wedged in the impeller, ie: a piece of wood, a plastic bag, a rock, etc.
As far as the shaft, yes, it can be the weak point with 550 hp or above but bending or breaking one with mildly built engine is very unlikely under normal conditions.
You said that the pump was supposedly rebuilt before you got the boat, there's a real good chance whoever did it put the water seal in backwards. If that's the case, it's the reason why you have water oil the oil reservoir. There's also a chance they put the du bushing in wrong or when they removed the old one, they damaged the housing where it sits.
I've seen a few where it appears the person used a saw to cut the bushing out. They went too far and put a nice little cut in the aluminum. The worst is when someone decides to use a big hammer to remove the shaft, lots of things go wrong when that happens.
Oh yea, I've been rebuilding these things for quite a few years now.
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I looked at another boat last night that had a Panther pump in it. It also had homemade looking engine mounts in it just like all of the other boats I've seen with a Panther pump, which is less than a handfull of boats. ;D Freakin' thing had a AMC small block engine with that Panther pump. ???
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wow thanks for all the info. i dont think it is the motor itself but as i said i have only ran the motor with it connected to the drive. I am giong to remove the drive from the motor and see how it sounds. if the sound is not there what is the best way to determine between the factors that are left. ie the pump, the u joint, or alignment.
And yes my motor is pretty mild. a smal overbore an intake and a cam. that is about it. this is not a race boat.lol.
i can not get back to the boat until next weekend i have a wedding this weekend and the boat is in blythe at our trailer. i really appreciate all the help so far guys. this is my first boat and i wish i could have came here first i would have looked for something different.
oh and due to that wedding i can not make the parker race. Hopefully i can figure out this hull vibration without bothering some of you smart guys for help
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what is the best way to determine between the factors that are left. ie the pump, the u joint, or alignment.
And yes my motor is pretty mild. a smal overbore an intake and a cam. that is about it. this is not a race boat.lol.
Once you remove the driveline, grab the front of the shaft and try to move it. If there's the slightest movement, there could be a problem with the bearings (unlikely) or the du bushing. The best thing to do is diconnect the steering cable and the forward/reverse cables from the nozzle. Then take the Stator housing off the rear, those 4- 9/16" are the ones holding it all together. Take a look at the end of the shaft and then make sure the du bushing tin the Stator housing isn't all f'd up and it's tight in the bore. When you take the Stator housing off, there will be movement in the shaft, that's normal since the du bushing holds it all in place.
While you have it apart, check to see if there is anything lodged in the impeller. I'd also check the impeller to suction housing clearance, it should be about .0025.....you will need 3 feeler gauges to check it.
When you put it back together, just use some silicone all around the joint between the Stator and Suction housings. I usually use "The Right Stuff" gasket maker because it's black and I have a few tubes laying around. You can also use just regular ole 3M silicone also.
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I looked at another boat last night that had a Panther pump in it. It also had homemade looking engine mounts in it just like all of the other boats I've seen with a Panther pump, which is less than a handfull of boats. ;D Freakin' thing had a AMC small block engine with that Panther pump. ???
That's an AMC 360, 1 of the Panther packages that was pretty popular back then....the least expensive one, from what I understand. They really aren't bad unless someone is looking to go fast ;D They did get some pretty darn good gas mileage and would push most 18' boats to 60ish.
I think that boat in the the "Go Wild" Panther movie is a 360.
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That's an AMC 360, 1 of the Panther packages that was pretty popular back then....the least expensive one, from what I understand. They really aren't bad unless someone is looking to go fast ;D They did get some pretty darn good gas mileage and would push most 18' boats to 60ish.
I think that boat in the the "Go Wild" Panther movie is a 360.
The guy was full of crap on a lot of points, but he said it was really quick. LOL He said he drove that thing the enitire weekend and still had gas left.
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you guys are very helpfull. i am kind of leaning toward this being an alignment issue. i redid the floor and trusses in this boat and i had never owned a boat before. when we put the motor in we measured the best we could but we basicly just eyeballed it. like i said my first boat..haha should have taken my time but i needed it for easter weekend. I will inspect all these parts as you have stated and post the results when i have finished my troubleshooting. i hope it ends up being an easy fix.
but i dobt it... it never is
later
tony
i dont know how fast they are supposed to go. i have a 20ft boat and it will only run about 44 at around 4500 rpm. is that normal. also i have not really tuned the carb yet the last trip was just to break in the cam and let the motor wear itself in.
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So you remounted the motor mounts depicted in this pic?
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi15.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa399%2Fvr4tony%2Fpictures050small.jpg&hash=e11739af257d8cbdc3a3e67c45c7df8b14febfe8)
too bad the boat isn't closer to you, I'd like to see pictures of the bellhousing to pump connection. If it's way off, you can usually tell by how that connection is.
Here's a pic of the Panther, you can see at the front how it's measured.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pantherjet.com%2Flinedraw1.jpg&hash=cfcfca0ce2927a5f04d177bb774f1c9127a8b8bb)
I made a 4' long alignment tool for engine installations that slips over the spline on the pump shaft. It works out real good to get it real close for the initial install and make the minor adjustments from there.
The thing is though, I've seen a couple that were every bit of a 6? misaligment and it didn't have any vibration.
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that is the most helpful pic yet. and yes i remounted the motor mounts you see in the pic. i dont think i am too far off but i might be. now that i see what you are talking about i will have a better clue on where to measure. i am hoping it to be an easy fix. because where those motor mounts are it would be easier to modify the motor mount than it would be to change its location on the truss.
you are one helpfull guy to know. i will be going to blythe next weekend to try and solve this problem. are any of you going to be down there that weekend??
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no but im willing ;D
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well i will be down there at mcintire park. should get there late on friday night. i am going to wake up and test and tune the boat all day. try the easy things first and see where we are at. and if i get it fixed on sat it is fun in the sun on sunday. if the problem still exists then some more wrenching on sunday.
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count me in im always up for a party i mean work ;)
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sweet. my cell is 949-677-2468