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JTMoney

  • Karma: +3/-0
How hard can it be?????
« on: August 29, 2011, 07:17:59 PM »
So I've got my motor broken down and ready to fix.  So a local shop around here says they will rebuild it and give it back to me completely sealed for 2400.  That's more than I want to spend.  So I was wondering if I sent everything out to be machined and then put it back together myself how much would I save.  The shop said they put new pistons, bearings, cam rockers and lifters.  Is that a good deal?   If I do all the same stuff myself would I save a lot of cash?  Also is my cam bad?  How do I know if I can keep it and reuse it?  And finally how hard is it to put the motor back together myself.  The guys in tv make It look easy.   Are there any special tools other than a torque wrench that I need.  Also how do I know if I have all my clearances correct.  Last thing I want to do is save five hundred bucks putting it together only to pull it apart again and spend the 2400 to have it done.   So any advice is really appreciated and if anyone wouldn't mind helping me I would be very appreciative in the form of ice cold beer.
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mobboss

  • Karma: +15/-0
Re: How hard can it be?????
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2011, 08:04:06 PM »
ok, where do i begin??? lets start here!!!! what do you know??? there is a lot that can go wrong. if this is your first motor, all i can say is dont!!!! if your trying to save money ask the shop that wants to build it for you how you can save a little tell them you would like to do some of the work. dont do it all yourself.what tools do you have ??? if you really want to do this i will try to walk you through it and im sure there are others but my advise is dont. start small. good luck
  • Boat #1: boat less
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obnoxious001

  • Karma: +4/-1
Re: How hard can it be?????
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2011, 08:45:11 PM »
So I've got my motor broken down and ready to fix.  So a local shop around here says they will rebuild it and give it back to me completely sealed for 2400.  That's more than I want to spend.  So I was wondering if I sent everything out to be machined and then put it back together myself how much would I save.  The shop said they put new pistons, bearings, cam rockers and lifters.  Is that a good deal?   If I do all the same stuff myself would I save a lot of cash?  Also is my cam bad?  How do I know if I can keep it and reuse it?  And finally how hard is it to put the motor back together myself.  The guys in tv make It look easy.   Are there any special tools other than a torque wrench that I need.  Also how do I know if I have all my clearances correct.  Last thing I want to do is save five hundred bucks putting it together only to pull it apart again and spend the 2400 to have it done.   So any advice is really appreciated and if anyone wouldn't mind helping me I would be very appreciative in the form of ice cold beer.

$2400 sounds very inexpensive, depending on the quality of parts and labor they are supplying.  Did they give you a written estimate or parts list?  If that's just "stock" type cast pistons and valve train type stuff, might be able to see it. 

Something you need to ask a shop when you have a marine engine built is what kind of piston to wall clearance they use,, and bearing clearances are important also.

Try looking up some of the parts you would need, pistons, rings, cam bearings, rod bearings, rear main seal, gaskets (good ones,, not just a rebuilders type set)  Cam and lifters,, were you happy with the performance you had?  They can't be supplying "performance" type rocker arms as part of that price

Ballpark on block machining,, hot tank, bore, hone, surface, $400,,, valve job, assuming your valves are fine,,, maybe $250-$300,,, new valve springs to match the cam,, depends which camshaft.

Start adding some of the stuff up,, what about engine balancing,, I bet that's not part of their $2400? 

As far as tools and assembly,, here is a link to one of my engine build threads.  http://www.performanceboats.com/dyno/59303-mild-pump-gas-454-dyno-test.html

It gives you some idea of tools that I have and use.  Certainly lots of guys assembly their own engines with much less in the way of special tools, many times without verifying bearing clearances, etc.  A jet boat engine has to run roughly double the RPM of a street engine, under constant load.

Back to the top,, $2400 is too cheap for a "performance" build, I suggest talking to a couple of other shops as comparison. 

If you have a list of the parts they are going to supply, you can PM me for my phone number and I will try to help with my opinion as well.



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crewchief22

  • Karma: +66/-0
Re: How hard can it be?????
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2011, 10:20:16 PM »
$2400.00 seems inexpensive for a stock rebuilt engine, and scary cheap for any performance build.  :thumbdown:

I spent around $3000.00 for parts and machine work to rebuild a mild 454.  I did the build and didn't replace the cam because it was not necessary.

Good isn't cheap and cheap isn't good.

Spend the money now to get good parts, good machine work and good assembly so that you won't have to worry about some questionable part failing or something seizing because the builder didn't know what was really necessary for a jet boat engine.

Crewchief
  • Boat #1: '77 Hondo Pantera GT Jet
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"Racing is life!  Anything that happens before or after, is just waiting"    Steve McQueen

The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

lbhsbz

  • Karma: +29/-1
How hard can it be?????
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2011, 08:19:56 AM »
Gimme a call, bring all the pieces by, let's see what you've got to work with, measure stuff up, form a plan and take it from there.  I've built a few.  Nothing wrong with doing it yourself, just get some help from someone experienced. 

-pat
310-947-7014
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JTMoney

  • Karma: +3/-0
Re: How hard can it be?????
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2011, 04:58:08 PM »
My goal isn't necessarily performance.  I just want a reliable boat to buzz the river with.  So basically I'm trying to stay stick with some reliability upgrades.  It ran fine before.  And Pat thank you for the offer.  As soon as I get the machine work done and the partss I want selected I will take you up on your offer.  Actually I need to check and make sure my heads and block and crank are still usable.  And obnoxious your thread made me want to try it myself even more.  I think the main goal is to research what clearances are best for my application and take to a good machine shop.  And it sounds like you are the guy for that.  So can I get a scjb quote on your good machine work on my block, crank and heads.
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GlassCutter

  • Karma: +31/-0
Re: How hard can it be?????
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2011, 07:07:30 PM »
The measuring is more important that any other component of the assembly IMO.  If you go for stock perf. you can save money for sure but you can't just assume you are going to find a "good" machine shop.  I would STRONGLY urge you to take your parts to Pat or Brian before AND after to doublecheck on the work.  YOu won't get a second chance once it is running and even if you put it together right, if the parts aren't machined right it won't last.  Take your time, do your research, and good luck.
  • Boat #1: 1973  Wriedt Montara 23
  • Boat #2: 1978 Spectra 20 460/Berkley
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Also, I will kiss bare male ass in the middle of the Vegas Strip  . . .  I will post pics if I need to.  --  IRRebel 2013

"Go ahead Rivertard does it.  Take a video though."

"If you did it in a dodge it would have shifted perfectly ran a thousand miles per hour and got optimum fuel mileage!"  Nordie  2012

obnoxious001

  • Karma: +4/-1
Re: How hard can it be?????
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2011, 07:44:15 PM »
And obnoxious your thread made me want to try it myself even more.  I think the main goal is to research what clearances are best for my application and take to a good machine shop.  And it sounds like you are the guy for that.  So can I get a scjb quote on your good machine work on my block, crank and heads.

The shop that I use for machine work is going through some changes right now, probably not the best time to send someone over there.  I was tossing out some general prices just to show how quickly you could get over $2400 totaled up. 

As I offered previously, if you PM me, I will give you my phone number
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lbhsbz

  • Karma: +29/-1
How hard can it be?????
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2011, 08:17:38 PM »
Bring your parts to me or Brian (or better yet, me and Brian) before you go to the machine shop.  Machine shops need very specific instruction, and "before" measurements should be taken to assure that the machine work is needed, and the to compare to the "after" measurements to see if the shop has the ability to listen and follow instructions.  I'm not gonna charge you a dime...just beer.  I think it would also be a good idea to involve Brian, and compare/question any different advise you get.   

My best advise to a newb is to question everything you're told, ask questions until you understand everything that's happening, and make everyone explain
The reasons behind their thought/decisions.  If something sounds funny, ask
More questions.   
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Duke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How hard can it be?????
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2011, 11:57:59 PM »
im fairly new to this as well, and the two guys above have helped me out a bunch. obnoxious has pointed me in the right direction many a time getting my engine running again and i went over to pats to pick up an alternator ( or 2 :D) for the equivilent of a case of beer, got to see pats man cave and shoot the shit with him for a little bit. helped me understand how to install the alternator i was getting from him.

and from what i can tell from the the day dreaming/ research iv done (one day id like to stroke out my 454 to 496) about building an engine is that the most important thing is to MEASURE! and measure, and lastly measure! which takes special tools. i think pat mentioned something like that in a post one time. kinda stuck
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1984 advantage jet boat 454 berkeley

24stroke

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: How hard can it be?????
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2011, 10:22:00 AM »
On your first Motor get a second set of eyes,,most times trying to Save a buck costs more in the long run,,save up and get it done right..Ive seen some nice exchanges on stroker bigblocks on ebay for around $1800 to $2k with unlimited milege or 5 years..just bolt all your external stuff on and go... ;)
  • Boat #1: 1978 Eliminator Sport 20'
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JTMoney

  • Karma: +3/-0
Re: How hard can it be?????
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2011, 08:25:50 PM »
Well I don't want to seem like a flake so I'm finally responding.  I was waiting to commit to this rebuild until after I found out what was happening with my job.  So a few weeks later I ended up getting laid off.  I knew it was coming they only said I was temporary.  They had a spike in work that they needed done and I was hoping they liked my work and would keep me.  But turns out they kept less qualified guys.  But I digress. 

So know my motor sits in hundreds of pieces in my garage until Im employed again.  Also the piston that exploded left a huge gouge in the cylinder.  And if I go by my luck that means they will have to be resleeved.  I'm not sure what to do, by a Chevy or keep the olds.  I don't want to have to buy everything all over again(headers, carb etc.) but if my motor is toast I may have too.

Also my wife is pregnant so this is very low on her priority list.  But I'd still like to take it to lbhsbz so I can get a better I idea of what needs to be done if that is still okay.
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lbhsbz

  • Karma: +29/-1
How hard can it be?????
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2011, 09:35:31 PM »
I've been there....we have a 16 month old...he loves the river.  If you need to get away, I've got a spare engine stand with nothin on it...bring your stuff down and we'll check it out, drink beer, talk shop, then arrange to get it over to Brian for a second opinion, and form a plan.
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