SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: Vegas on March 31, 2011, 11:09:36 AM
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First, I would like to say whats up guys, my name is Lucas and im new here! I just picked up a 76 Hallett bubbledeck with a 460/berk combo, and im sure ill be seeing a lot more of you guys!
My question is that I just got my new MSD ready to run distributor, and it says that it does not require an external ignition box. However, the instruction manual shows how to install it with and without the box. My boat already has an external ignition box (Procomp electronics), would it be better to wire it straight to my coil, or through the ignition box.
Also, there is instructions for setting a rev limit, but I have no clue as to what the engine is supposed to be running as far as rpms? ???
All help is always appreciated! Thanks
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i dont think your msd rtr dizzy has a rev limiter (mine does not) if you run it through your box you will have a back up system (if you trust pro comp lol)
i have used my dizzy for 5 years and no problems, just hook up the 3 wires and go
if you use a rev limiter try 5k
hope this helps, welcome to the boards
ralph
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I think I will remove the ignition box then and hook it up straight to the coil. The boat also has a procomp coil on it, i figure I should upgrade that to MSD as well, but which type should I use?
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I think I will remove the ignition box then and hook it up straight to the coil. The boat also has a procomp coil on it, i figure I should upgrade that to MSD as well, but which type should I use?
Whatever the instructions to the dizzy show
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Alright cool. One more, I swear haha... I got the dizzy in, the gear feels all the way in, but the houing of the dizzy sticks up about 3/4" from the intake manifold. Is there a trick to get it to sit right?
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Does the dizzy look like this? I have my limiter on the 6AL box set at 6k. Try rotating the dizzy a little and it should go all the way in. If not, bump crank the engine and see if it drops in.
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I felt the gears hit and slide in, just the housing won't sit flush against the manifold. I checked and the old distributor sat flush and they are the same height??
This is what im talking about
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi54.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg94%2FLucas89005%2F1301608366.jpg&hash=0c3ff6fc6f6ac1effb8c5b603aef56903159284c)
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i cant see the pics at work but it sounds like you need to crank the motor and push down on the dizzy at the same time. :-\
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So I got it to sit flush, i installed all the wire and went to crank it, and it wont start, it just cranks. What is the proper way to check and make sure the rotor is on the right tooth?
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So I got it to sit flush, i installed all the wire and went to crank it, and it wont start, it just cranks. What is the proper way to check and make sure the rotor is on the right tooth?
put the motor on tdc compression stroke the rotor should be pointing at the #1 spark plug wire
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Get rid of all the Pro Crap stuff and it'll probably fire right up!
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Everytime I've done a dizzy change in the 460 the same thing happens. It's the oil pump shaft not lining up with the dizzy after engagement. I use an oil pump primer to reach in and rotate the shaft a little to get it to line up. Probably what you did was jump a tooth or two on the dizzy gear, but then the shaft lined up.
Do as Ralph says. Get the number 1 cylinder coming up to TDC on compression stroke. Then watch #6. When #6 starts to go down, drop the dizzy in with the rotor pointing at the #1 plug wire (Should be towards the rear of the engine). You'll probably need to rotate the oil pump shaft with a priming tool or "Bump start" the engine (With the dizzy in as far as you can get it) to get it to drop in fully. Rotate the dizzy to make sure you're pointed RIGHT AT #1 and snug it up and light it. You'll be surprised how little it is out of time when you put a timing lite on it. ;)
Ray
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Pointing towards the #1 cylinder or the wire? I turned the crank until the pin (on the top left side of pulley if looking straight at it) was directly on the 0* mark on the pulley. I looked at the rotor and it looks as if it is right on the #1 cylinder plug wire, about 10'clock. ???
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Pointing towards the #1 cylinder or the wire? I turned the crank until the pin (on the top left side of pulley if looking straight at it) was directly on the 0* mark on the pulley. I looked at the rotor and it looks as if it is right on the #1 cylinder plug wire, about 10'clock. ???
Ignore the timing marks on the Dampner until you KNOW they are right.........Ralph has experience with this as well, but there's a lot of different dampners out there......etc, etc. Chased my tail for 2 days on one once...........
Pull the number 1 spark plug, have someone bump the engine over while you hole your thumb over the hole. when you feel the pressure (It'll be obvious), It's coming up on compression. Pull the number 6 plug, and you can use a good clean wire, I use solder, but put it in the plug hole on top of the piston while you crank it by hand watching carefully. Then when #6 starts to go back down, yes, drop the dizzy in with the rotor pointing at where the #1 spark plug wire attached to the dizzy cap.
IF you look at your dampner and timing pointer and it seems to register ok,good for you. Never works that way for me, so here's where a silver Sharpie marker is your friend. at this aforementioned point, put a line on the dampner right at your pointer. This is 10* BTDC. Rotate the engine over TWICE again with the solder in the #1 hole to determine true TDC and put another line on the dampner. THOSE marks come in handy with the timing lite later............
Ray
PS you could also just simply be 180* out as well........but I still do it my way every time. Sounds more difficult than it is....... ;)
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Ray i am not a fan of your solder in this case, he is already having trouble and the solder could make it worse. For you or I or anybody with some experience i would'nt have a problem with it.
jmho
ralph
ps sombody from the vegas crew give this guy a hand already
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Ray i am not a fan of your solder in this case, he is already having trouble and the solder could make it worse. For you or I or anybody with some experience i would'nt have a problem with it.
jmho
ralph
ps sombody from the vegas crew give this guy a hand already
Good point! :thumbup:
Nordie! Go set this dizzy would ya? >:D
Ray
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vegas! what part of town are you located? im a busy guy, but pm me your number i can probably get you squared away...if your close to my house i can probably do it tonight....im bored right now!
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at a boy Nordie :thumbup:
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i already know why it aint going down, and a 3/8's deep socket seems to do the trick lol :thumbup: :beer: :thumbup: :beer:
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vegas! what part of town are you located? im a busy guy, but pm me your number i can probably get you squared away...if your close to my house i can probably do it tonight....im bored right now!
:thumbup: :thumbup:
;)
Ray
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oh and we want pics of your hallett. a couple of guys on here are running hallett bubbles. myself included.
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Nordie, I got your pm but not until late last night. The boat is in boulder city right now, but if you want I can probably tow it to you. Ill provide the beer haha. I have a few pictures of it but im at work right now! The only time during daylight when I can work on the boat is tuesday and thursday. I appreciate the hospitality and im sure ill be seeing a lot more of yall! ;D
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Here is a pic of the boat when I first got it. Before waxing of course
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi54.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg94%2FLucas89005%2F2011-03-15_12-07-55_125.jpg&hash=bf0e4fb77b13be5f21ca76178161a1956cf462a9)
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Good looking float
Love the OT pipes :thumbup:
Welcome to SCJB ;D
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nice boat man..... :thumbup: :thumbup:
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For as wonderful as the MSD electronics are, in my opinion, their distributors leave a lot to be desired mechanically. We curve a LOT of distributors, of all makes, and some of the worst out of the box performance distributor curves have been found in the MSD units. We won't sell one, or install one without putting it on the distributor machine to check the curve first. We advise all customers contemplating distributor purchases that that all distributors need to be checked, we check what we sell for free, but we will charge for the proper curve labor/parts. We have seen only a handful of their dists thru the years that the curve was how much and where it was supposed to be out of the box. I have notified the company several times thru the years, and every time I was told that they have few complaints, so they keep on keepin on. Meanwhile, you folks without a dist. machine use factory and aftermarket distributors, and leave HP and fuel mileage on the table. This is such a basic "first thing to do" deal that we will check anybody's dist for free, we only charge for the recurve if required. The MSD advance mechanism is that of the 1955-1978 chevy, the pickup assy is from a mid 1980s ford, and the rotor and cap are also early chevy. The weights almost always hit/interfere with the rotors two alignment pins on most of the chevy design units (even from GM!), causing less advance, and the required, powerful trigger coil magnet (not used in the points-type original units) magnetizes the weights and pivot enough to hold the weights in their non-advanced position delaying the onset of the mechanical advance as set-up for. NOTE: a brand new dist. has usually not had the weights magnetized yet because it hasn't been used! Only after use will that happen! We modify everything to minimize the magnetic effect in the future also. After curving any dist. we install the rotor and run it up on the machine again to verify proper operation with the cap in place. We have to charge more to curve the MSD units due to the amount of mods required for proper operation. The above post is just my opinion, I could be wrong. TIMINATOR
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Hmm well I didn't get the curve checked before I put the dizzy on. I got the dizzy in and installed, and I got the boat running decently well just by turning the cap timing it by ear. I bring it down to the water to get a light on it, and I installed a brand new set of the same plugs that were in the boat, all gapped properly. I had DRIVEN the boat up to the dock, changed the plugs, and hooked up the light, then I cranked it, it fired fine and ran for about 4 seconds and died. Tried to crank it again and I have no spark from the coil?? I just installed a new MSD blaster coil, and ran new wiring to the coil, and we were seeing 12V at the coil(+) terminal. I talked to my boss and he said it could be the coil or the magnetic pickup inside the dizzy itself. How would I go about properly testing to figure out what exactly is wrong, and to prevent it from happening again! I want to learn how to take care of my boat properly!! Thanks! :screwy:
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i dont know the answer to your ? but try here
http://www.msdignition.com/forum/ (http://www.msdignition.com/forum/)
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did you keep your procomp box?
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did you keep your procomp box?
No, I got rid of that crap!
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describe how you've got the ignition wired
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I have the switched +12v from the ignition ran to the + term on the coil, along with the red wire from the dizzy. Black ground wire ran to the terminal block ground on the back of the motor. Grey wire ran to tach. And the orange wire ran to the - term on the coil.
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cool.
1: verify all your powers and grounds
2: to test the coil, disconnect the negative side and attach a jumper wire....your gonna be quickly tapping this against a ground. pull the cap end of the coil wire, stick a spark plug in it, hold the spark plug against the intake. With the key on, you should see spark on you test plug while tapping you're jumper wire to ground. if not, the coil is toast.
if you do see spark, the there is a problem with the distributor. pull the cap and make sure its turning when you crank the engine....if it is, the distributor is bad.
MSD = My Spark Disappeared
i wouldn't be surprised with failures.
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I have the switched +12v from the ignition ran to the + term on the coil, along with the red wire from the dizzy. Black ground wire ran to the terminal block ground on the back of the motor. Grey wire ran to tach. And the orange wire ran to the - term on the coil.
Just thinking, but double check, then maybe run the ground directly to the block, not the terminal bus. Bad ground???
Ray
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I got a brand new coil and an msd resistor and installed both. I went to test spark from the coil as lbhsbz described and I get nothing. The only time im seeing a spark is from the jumper wire when I tapped it against the valve cover. Where is the best spot for the grounds for the dizzy and the engine itself?
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you've just proved that you have a grounding problem. Where do you have the engine ground hooked up now?
i usually use one of the bellhousing or starter bolrs, or both, it wouldn't hurt to run one to the intake either, but shouldn't be neefef
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I have been texting him back and forth all day trying to help...i was gonna help him on thursday, but now i got called into work...he now has a solid spark but no fire...he was using the terminal block to ground the dizzy...and from the terminal block he didnt have a clue where the ground went...i told him i would ground it on the cylinder head...i believe he did and thats when he got spark...also after reading what he is running i dont believe he needs a ballast...im sure you guys can shed some light on that...right now i told him to bypass it but no fire...plug gap is at 44...im thinking as of now it might just be a timing thing...
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hope this works for you good luck
rusty
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i'll put this one up right
rusty
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I have been texting him back and forth all day trying to help...i was gonna help him on thursday, but now i got called into work...he now has a solid spark but no fire...he was using the terminal block to ground the dizzy...and from the terminal block he didnt have a clue where the ground went...i told him i would ground it on the cylinder head...i believe he did and thats when he got spark...also after reading what he is running i dont believe he needs a ballast...im sure you guys can shed some light on that...right now i told him to bypass it but no fire...plug gap is at 44...im thinking as of now it might just be a timing thing...
Again? :screwy: I run all Mallory, no Ballast required (Or wanted) with a Hyfire. I would assume MSD is the same.
I'm with Pat tho. I put 3 grounds on my boats. One to a bellhousing bolt, one to a starter bolt, and one to the terminal block, and also ground the ignition directly to the block as well. I think on Moo I actually did it at the VC bolt. ;)
Ray
PS, good spark, no fire and timing somewhat near to close to correct (Or even backfires if 180* out).........is he getting spark when cranking the thing or just when turned on? :sly: Wouldn't be the first time I've had this happen with a bad ignition switch (Moo..... :banghead:) or a bad starter solenoid.......(Every other Ferd product I've ever had......)
;)
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I think my problem might lay int he grounding. I got spark once I grounded the dizzy to the head with a much shorter ground wire. I have a single ground wire on the battery going to the engine block. I feel like I should run another one directly to the starter itself. Isn't the bellhousing itself aluminum so shouldn't it not be a good conductor? Ill also run a fresh 10 gauge line to the terminal block while i'm at it. I appreciate all the help guys!! ;D
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I think my problem might lay int he grounding. I got spark once I grounded the dizzy to the head with a much shorter ground wire. I have a single ground wire on the battery going to the engine block. I feel like I should run another one directly to the starter itself. Isn't the bellhousing itself aluminum so shouldn't it not be a good conductor? Ill also run a fresh 10 gauge line to the terminal block while i'm at it. I appreciate all the help guys!! ;D
Yes, but the bolt goes into the engine block....... :sly:
Ray
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I just took the distributor ground and cleaned it up with a wire brush and some simple green. And I also moved the engine ground to the bellhousing like you suggested, and now I don't have spark from the coil again. :banghead:
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I don't mean to hijack your thread Vegas and I'm sorry to hear about the issues your having but after reading about them I've decided to bite the bullet and spend some cash to have someone that's done this a few times do mine. My current setup is a bbf with a points dizzy and a ballast resistor. I just bought a Pertronix billet marine ready to run. I rewired the boat pretty recently so all wiring is in good shape.All worked well before the old presto took a crap so it should be pretty straight forward.Can anybody recommend a shop or just a good wrench here on the boards who can help me out with this?? Thanks GottaJet
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I don't mean to hijack your thread Vegas and I'm sorry to hear about the issues your having but after reading about them I've decided to bite the bullet and spend some cash to have someone that's done this a few times do mine. My current setup is a bbf with a points dizzy and a ballast resistor. I just bought a Pertronix billet marine ready to run. I rewired the boat pretty recently so all wiring is in good shape.All worked well before the old presto took a crap so it should be pretty straight forward.Can anybody recommend a shop or just a good wrench here on the boards who can help me out with this?? Thanks GottaJet
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Cyclone Speed & Marine 818-890-1867 Just down the hill from you in Pacoima.
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Alright so today we got it figured out. It was the pickup on the dizzy, we swapped in a mallory unilite, and with alligator clips being used as grounds it fired right up haha. I'm going to send in the MSD for a warranty claim. Would you guys suggest running the unilite or the MSD? I appreciate the help guys ! ;D
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Cyclone Speed & Marine 818-890-1867 Just down the hill from you in Pacoima.
Thanks Luckie !! I'll give em a call..
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vegas try msd web site under trouble shooting
rusty
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Alright so today we got it figured out. It was the pickup on the dizzy, we swapped in a mallory unilite, and with alligator clips being used as grounds it fired right up haha. I'm going to send in the MSD for a warranty claim. Would you guys suggest running the unilite or the MSD? I appreciate the help guys ! ;D
Lots of these guys run MSD successfully. I run Mallory. All in preference. I've not had a single issue with the Unilites, others will say the same for MSD. Horror stories like yours abound for either, including HEI, however. Since you have the Unilite in AND it's working, why mess with it more? :sly:
If you're going to run it, I'd get the Hyfire 6AL and pawn off or return the MSD box you have, however. :beer:
Ray