SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: h20dawg_2nv on August 12, 2013, 12:41:25 PM
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1989 Eliminator open bow
Fresh top to bottom rebuild with a 90 over on 454. 6.7 hrs was cruising at 40 mph sounding really nice. Boat sudden Loss of speed 40 to 28mph no power then sudden "clunk" motor dead. Try to refire, get click-click. Open cover and steam pouring out of breathers and carb. Didn't note oil pressure at time of motor dying but a few minutes before was 60-65 psi. Turned key on noted 130 degrees felt exhaust which was warm, not hot. Trailered checked intake, nothing visual in impeller. Boats at the motor builder. All on beach saying "motor". Builder trying to say pump froze.....thoughts?
89' Eliminator
508BBC Berkley Jet
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No one has any ideas? Direction? Input?
89' Eliminator
508BBC Berkley Jet
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Sounds like a head gasket if you have steam coming out the carb and breathers
Sent from my SGH-T999 using SoCalJetBoats mobile app
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Oil level? Sounds like the motor locked up. Steam coming out of the breathers doesn't sound good to me at all. Any time I have seen this usually involved my motor locking up.
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If you can disconnect the pump from the engine and see which one moves freely.
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We had the exact same thing happen in our Southwind. Thought the motor was toast. Ended up being a seized pump. I agree, disconnect the two and see which one spins.
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Ok my builder is separating the drive tomorrow. As for oil level, full, clear and no burnt smell. The jet was a blueprint/rebuild last year, a berkley with jet-a-vator.
Thanks for input, I've had a short summer waiting for this motor to be finished and now this!
Keep ya posted!
89' Eliminator
508BBC Berkley Jet
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Yea partner I hope it's something easy. I feel ya.
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Hope everything works out. This is why I do all of my own work,. Relying on someone else to repair and diagnose is just not in my vocabulary.
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Hope everything works out. This is why I do all of my own work,. Relying on someone else to repair and diagnose is just not in my vocabulary.
Same here.... then I have nobody to blame but myself if something is wrong. That makes me mad but it makes me even madder if I paid someone to do something and it screws up
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Yeah I typically do all my own work (cars and my bikes) but my room is limited and HOA threatens fined if neighbors tattle on my wrenching.
If it turns out to be a jet issue is this something I can tackle in my buddies garage or they a total nightmare? Done a few jet skis, I assume they have some sort of similarities. Hoping for the best but expecting the worst 😁 keep telling myself "look at all the fuel money I'm saving!"
89' Eliminator
508BBC Berkley Jet
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When did you have the her done? Warranty still good?
Ya, HOA's have a good and bad side.
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Was competed 3 weeks ago, have 7.3 hrs since regaining her. The builder says engine issues are on him the owner of machine/motor build shop (builders dad) race engine do not get warranty. Not a race engine just 710 HP of fun. So needless to say told owner that's BS I didn't drop 5k (I brought all the goodies) to get 704.224 $$ per hour!
89' Eliminator
508BBC Berkley Jet
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When did you have the her done? Warranty still good?
Ya, HOA's have a good and bad side.
Hoa's are the worst haha I just got a $50.00 fine for leaving my boat in the driveway for a day.
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Yeah I left my MX bikes in driveway after pressure wash. they left me a hate note and a fine for $85 gotta love them
89' Eliminator
Stroked BBC Berkley Jet
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Ya. I got a fine because my satellite dish can be seen from the street in a 1 inch spot in 1 place from the street
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Was competed 3 weeks ago, have 7.3 hrs since regaining her. The builder says engine issues are on him the owner of machine/motor build shop (builders dad) race engine do not get warranty. Not a race engine just 710 HP of fun. So needless to say told owner that's BS I didn't drop 5k (I brought all the goodies) to get 704.224 $$ per hour!
89' Eliminator
508BBC Berkley Jet
710HP for $5K?...please share the build.
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Simple, my older brother is a hot rod builder and has a hangar full of parts 😉My engine when I bought the boat was already high HP not sure the exact number. I lost the cam last fall. The motor was .030 over then. Now 090 over
My brother supplied all the parts needing replacement, got a forged crank from him (skat)that was balanced and I believe is 4.50? Anyways the 5K was disassemble of block, machine work.
Reworked heads valves ect
Machine and mech was 2400 and my brother hooked me up with pistons, rods, valves, crank, carb dominator, cam, and gaskets for 2500. Not a mechanic but was told this made it a stroker? The builder said if I hadn't a connection for the parts and what I had already done by removing engine and disassemble it price would be closer to the 11-12k range
89' Eliminator
Stroked BBC Berkley Jet
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Well update, builder called said separated jet from motor, jet is fine can't turn motor more then a 1/4"
Pulling motor said "I don't build motors that last less then 100's of hours before maintenance" so he and I are on the same page with a "warranty" idea.
My brother mentioned something about this new crank probably wasn't turning freely, probably the reason for failure. Any input to what he's saying? Again not a mechanic but familiar to a point around the motor.
89' Eliminator
Stroked BBC Berkley Jet
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My brother mentioned something about this new crank probably wasn't turning freely, probably the reason for failure. Any input to what he's saying? Again not a mechanic but familiar to a point around the motor.
It's impossible to know without taking it apart to see what happened, but if someone put an engine together without measuring and checking bearing clearance, and verifying that the crankshaft turned easily prior to putting the rods and pistons in the block, then the guy is no "engine builder".
There could have been an oiling issue or something else, as I said, once it comes apart the problem should be able to be spotted and verified before it goes back together.
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Motor apart. No obvious signs of lack of oil/lube all bearings are nearly perfect. Crank was gorgeous but my cam was in three pieces and #7 piston broke into 5000 pieces
Here are some pics
Some discussion with Comp Cam and Keith Black distributor. They want all the left over valve dimensions, the spring tension(coil?) and few other details KB claims they've never seen their pistons explode quite like that. I've never seen the end of a cam shatter into pieces
What's your guys' thoughts?
89' Eliminator
Stroked BBC Berkley Jet
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One more pic; it's missing a few inches (shattered)
89' Eliminator
Stroked BBC Berkley Jet
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First, not sure KB makes a .090" over piston. And, a KB Piston to me indicates its hypereutectic, rather than forged. It could still be an older KB forged piston, or one of their newer "Icon" brand forged pistons. I would like to know the part number and dome volume, and what heads you have and combustion chamber size. This is a pump gasoline engine,, what compression was it supposed to be?
The broken exhaust valve may have caused the incident, depending on compression, fuel octane, and ignition timing.
I recently rebuilt an engine that was sold to the guy by a shop as "9.6-1 compression". He brought it to me with holes in three pistons, and signs of detonation on the rest of the set. Looking at parts and some calculations showed it was actually about 11.8 or 11.9-1 compression, way out of line for pump gas with his closed chamber iron heads. Unfortunately that shop had closed and the owner in a serious medical condition so he had no recourse than to have someone else rebuild it correctly.
The cam was probably broken by pieces of piston bouncing around and jamming it up, and the bottom of the cylinders damaged by the rod thrashing around without a piston to keep it centered in the bore.
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I bet you find out that those are not forged pistons. I hope the builder stands behind his work. If he sourced those pistons knowing it was going in a boat, then he should have certainly known better.
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Was competed 3 weeks ago, have 7.3 hrs since regaining her. The builder says engine issues are on him the owner of machine/motor build shop (builders dad) race engine do not get warranty. Not a race engine just 710 HP of fun. So needless to say told owner that's BS I didn't drop 5k (I brought all the goodies) to get 704.224 $$ per hour!
89' Eliminator
508BBC Berkley Jet
I would like to know more about the exact parts combination,, and where the "710 HP" figure comes from, especially with a flat tappet cam, unless it's a higher compression engine designed to run on better than pump gas.
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Runs on high octane 100+ octane. Or should I say it did run.
89' Eliminator
Stroked BBC Berkley Jet
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Runs on high octane 100+ octane. Or should I say it did run.
89' Eliminator
Stroked BBC Berkley Jet
OK,, I am trying to give you an honest evaluation of what may have happened, but need answers to the items I have asked about.
100 octane fuel is certainly better than pump gas, but how much compression were you trying to run with it, and was the fuel still fresh?
The broken valve is a telltale sign, but lots of missing information to be able to field an intelligent guess as to why it broke.
Ignition timing, static compression, fuel delivery system, fuel octane (which deteriorates with age), load (boats put a continuous load on an engine), cooling system and engine temperature all can end up working against you.
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To the OP. What was your exhaust water system set up. Did you have a valve for this. Also did you test it to make sure it was working properly. Too much water is not a good thing.
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See if I can answer most of these questions as I don't have the build sheet on me:
Ignition: MSD HEI with 6ML
Advanced 32
Fuel brand new day before from VP station
Compression I believe was 11:5 but not certain not sure on the domes
Hydraulic lifters and cam
Scat 4.50 crank
You are correct on the non forged I have the forged ones in a box here at my house
As for .090 over the invoice for order indicated that but I'll try and get a number associated as they were shipped to builder
The pump cooling setup up by a company in S Cal called marine performance it does a have a ball valve control. Previous owner told me to turn it 3/4 way open so this is what I've done over the last year. I don't know what load means so not sure how to answer.
Builder came over to look at my boat asked to look at my MSD box explained its not a rev limiter built in. He's suggested over rev, I've never pushed it above 5K on the nose and that was for a 1/8 mile max due to the limited hours put on the build
89' Eliminator
Stroked BBC Berkley Jet
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What's the stuff on the intake valve (next to the missing exhaust valve)?
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Sure
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What's the stuff on the intake valve (next to the missing exhaust valve)?
Gotta think that's aluminum,, look at the rest of the chamber, and don't forget how many pieces the piston was in.
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I do faluire analysis for a living and By looking at the pics you have....valve keeper was not installed correctly.... You had to be revving that engine above 3000 rpm, valve dropped, impacting the top of the piston crown their cast aluminum pistons they will shatter if hit hard enough......... And from there your engine just started tearing it self apart. Next time you use a flat tappet and plan on making big hp numbers make sure you have the cam harden for lubrication and strentgh..........
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Also checked your original post,,, if you we're doing about 40 mph you had to be revving that engine at least between 3500-4000 rpm's and you probably didn't hear anything wrong due to the exhaust being pretty loud
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Yikes! Good luck with your engine.
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I do faluire analysis for a living and By looking at the pics you have....valve keeper was not installed correctly.... You had to be revving that engine above 3000 rpm, valve dropped, impacting the top of the piston crown their cast aluminum pistons they will shatter if hit hard enough.........
The valve stem is still in the guide, no photo of the top of the head to say whether the retainer is still intact, but I bet a nickel that it is.
I will stand by my initial guess, have PMed the original poster for the rest of the engine specs, thinking it may have had some detonation or pre-ignition problems. It's very common for a marine engine to lose an exhaust valve under those circumstances, then the head of the valve can do similar damage to what the photo shows, and parts then bouncing in the crankcase can get up and jamb up the camshaft. He stated it lost power (hmm,, missing exhaust valve head, and broken piston would definitely kill power,, then when the cam broke it would stop running, unless the rod happened to jamb itself into the block first, which apparently it did not.
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100 octane from VP gas station in sparks, NV. Same block on rebuild. Zinc was included on breakin, 20 minute run at 2500 rpm.
89' Eliminator
Stroked BBC Berkley Jet
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As to 40 mph and RPMs I was turning 3600, yes the exhaust tends to dilute the motor but my son was seated with back against the bench seating directly in front of block. For what it's worth he said nothing out of ordinary, just the audible clunk and sudden quietness 😁
As for my previous Cam loss, the push rod/lifter chewed up a lobe, made it nearly flat. It still ran but made a popping sound and you could hear the marble sound in the motor as the lifter swam about.
Obnoxious gave me some info on KB pistons losing the top of piston. I read the rings are higher in these pistons, so have to account for that. Could be the issue, im not sure. My brother is on the same idea as its a detonation problem as one of the members here mentioned. The saga continues!
89' Eliminator
Stroked BBC Berkley Jet
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barry knows his chit :thumbup: :thumbup:
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You stated that your previous lifter and push rod ate up a cam lobe......If you we're running a flat tappet cam......improper break in, using oil with out an zinc additive, high coil spring rate pressures will run a cam flat not the push rods and lifters them selfs.......the wear you see is premature wear that a result not a cause....what caused these part to wear is what you need to find out the why...........and if running a flat tappet get it hardened/ nitrited it it will make that cam live..........
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Broken crap is broken...blah, blah, blah
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Personally I think that .090 over is a tired block, unless it was a Dart or Bowtie block. And I agree that your 2 events are related...it might be cheaper to replace the block. Perhaps a lifter bore is worn badly, or is oversize? That would explain eating the lifter and pushrod, along with the cam lobe.
.090" over is not a size that KB makes in hypereutectic, as far as I know. I had asked him to get more particulars on the pistons. I also have some personal doubts about 4.5" stroke, since it would require lots of grinding for clearance in a stock GM block, maybe not even possible without hitting water jackets, and from what I can see in the photo, there is no grinding, so I have to guess it's a much more common 4.250" crank, with .060" pistons (he did state that it was originally .030")
That being said, I personally have run a .100" over block stroker motor, 505 cubic inches, with first an 8-71 blower, and later a Gentry turbo setup making 15 lbs of boost. I raced the block for 6 years once the turbo kit was on it, took it apart after the boat was sold (less engine), then rebuilt it again for the guy that bought it from me.
While I have to rely only on photos of the broken parts, I am still waiting on more information about the piston part number and/or dome volume to see if the static compression is what he was told. I still think the cam was broken due to pieces of piston, valve and block (look at the bottom of the cylinders) bouncing around inside the crankcase, being batted around by a lose connecting rod.
Until there are more facts and evidence, I continue to stand by my previous statements, I have seen too many engines come to me with the head of the valve broken off like that.
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Badgers? Nobody mentioned badgers....
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I wouldn't reuse a block that ate 2 cams so quickly either. I'm not saying that a naturally aspirated BBC can't make 700hp - but I'm pretty sure that this random collection of parts didn't, and it sounds like your builder doesn't have a clue either.
I will bet another 5c that the cam didn't break until the debris from the other destruction got into it and jammed it up. The photo of the cam and lifters is not quite good enough for me to see any other damage than the breaks, which are common when pieces of iron and aluminum and exhaust valve are bouncing around in the crankcase, being batted around by connecting rods. He stated it lost power(that would be when the valve let go, taking out the piston and cylinder wall) , then after that quit running (when the cam snapped)
The block appears to have a big hole in the cylinder wall, not to mention damage at the bottom of the two cylinders. It may not be a candidate for the rebuild, but I think it's pretty hasty to say that it "ate 2 cams"
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I will bet another 5c that the cam didn't break until the debris from the other destruction got into it and jammed it up. The photo of the cam and lifters is not quite good enough for me to see any other damage than the breaks, which are common when pieces of iron and aluminum and exhaust valve are bouncing around in the crankcase, being batted around by connecting rods. He stated it lost power(that would be when the valve let go, taking out the piston and cylinder wall) , then after that quit running (when the cam snapped)
The block appears to have a big hole in the cylinder wall, not to mention damage at the bottom of the two cylinders. It may not be a candidate for the rebuild, but I think it's pretty hasty to say that it "ate 2 cams"
Not arguing that with you and never have - IS THAT understandable? Might I suggest decaf? Or WEED? Geez, most boards just have grammar/spelling Nazis :banghead:
I could really give a fark about your resume, so don't send it to me again. :screwy:
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I'm sorry I was indeed hasty, remind me to wait a week before I mention the holes in the block... You're right, hasty...that camshaft looks totally reusable...custom even. Did you invent it??
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Don't want feedback? Don't post your sob story whilst asking for feedback.
You don't know engines... You hired someone to put yours together with parts you got a deal on from someone who wanted to get rid of some junk parts...and this is what happened. The only to to blame for this is you...for your
Ignorance.
We all had to start somewhere... because we were all ignorant once...but we all got fed up with others screwing stuff up, and made the investment in research, mistakes, experience, tooling, etc to be able to build engines that stay together.
The people offering you advice here demand big dollars for their work, and it's worth every penny, because they're builders, not assemblers. It's only because of communities like this that they offer the advise for free.
I build better engines than 90% of the engine shops out there...only because I've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years paying them to teach me how not to do it. Listen up, don't be a dick, and you'll accomplish
two things...you'll learn something and earn the respect and knowledge of people who have been down your road 100 times.
Barry is a great engine builder.
We're here to help...seriously...that's the whole point of this website....just don't show up without a slice of humble pie when you admittedly know very little about the subject matter. We'll help you fix it, we'll help you make it fast.
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Don't want feedback? Don't post your sob story whilst asking for feedback.
You don't know engines... You hired someone to put yours together with parts you got a deal on from someone who wanted to get rid of some junk parts...and this is what happened. The only to to blame for this is you...for your
Ignorance.
We all had to start somewhere... because we were all ignorant once...but we all got fed up with others screwing stuff up, and made the investment in research, mistakes, experience, tooling, etc to be able to build engines that stay together.
The people offering you advice here demand big dollars for their work, and it's worth every penny, because they're builders, not assemblers. It's only because of communities like this that they offer the advise for free.
I build better engines than 90% of the engine shops out there...only because I've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years paying them to teach me how not to do it. Listen up, don't be a dick, and you'll accomplish
two things...you'll learn something and earn the respect and knowledge of people who have been down your road 100 times.
Barry is a great engine builder.
We're here to help...seriously...that's the whole point of this website....just don't show up without a slice of humble pie when you admittedly know very little about the subject matter. We'll help you fix it, we'll help you make it fast.
WTF? I'm not the guy that blew his engine??? I'm just a guy that said it appeared to have EATEN that cam. I didn't ask for anything especially some pompous blowhards resume in the mail. My engines don't come apart EITHER...so what?
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If I were to post exactly what Barry wrote to me - you'd say he was SENILE. But then if you think I'm the OP and I'm the one asking for help - then perhaps you are TOO.
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I say it might have been cheaper for him to have replaced the block when it ate the (FIRST) cam and lifter and that it also ate a bunch of MONEY - I stand by both of those statements! Hardly flameworthy..but hey I guess everyone misses their meds once and a while! :-)
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I'm not sure why this became a bash on others banter. I asked about whether this looked to be a fluke issue or the builder funked it up. I do appreciate those shoe gave input to help with what they know.
Not that it truly means a whole lot to me, but why in the world would one ditch the actual block, short of obvious flaws? The first issue I had with the cam losing a lobe was caused by a rocker not properly locked down, it spun 90 degrees and beat the piss out of it. The end of the push rod broke off and lifter broke and floated down to the end and scarred up the cam. It obviously ran but sounded like an old 7.3 PSD
This latest catastrophe, the cam had been broke in correctly with proper zinc additives and oil change with zinc added again.
Whomever stated "should've started with a new block" why? It was 030 over and was low hours (128 hrs). I'm not a mechanic by any means not even a good assembler but I've raced MX for years and had to do repairs to my bikes. Other then possible resleeved I don't recall ditching my block. But maybe there's a difference between a BBC and 2stroke and 4 stroke bikes? Please help me understand the new block statement. I know I need a new block now as it has a hole and fractured from top to bottom in the #7 sleeve
89' Eliminator
Stroked BBC Berkley Jet
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I read .090 over... skipped from .030 to .090 what happened to .060? Block damage. Sounded like a tired old block to me that a bunch of random parts was stuffed into that blew apart. What the point that was argued about that I said was that it had eaten the camshaft - but I've been assured by experts that this guy's camshaft is just fine. Why are we arguing this? My 2 cents was it ate a bunch of money and that I'd personally have started with a fresh block (which I recently DID) rather than putting thousands of dollars into what I read as being a tired old block - without a good foundation the best parts in the world will fail. My 2 cents, so what?
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Nowhere in this post do you say 128 hrs.... You said .090 and it wiped out a cam (and lifter) last year and nobody knew why.
As in FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE. Same thing with the cause, though YOU might have known, you didn't mention any of that in your post... Going on the facts that have been presented to me - I make the statements I make.
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If this block only had 128 hours on it total, why didn't you just take it back to Dart, GM Motorsports, or whoever sold you a new block?
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I think it's gotten alittle tense in here. Remember this is the tech section of the site not the war zone.
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I think it's gotten alittle tense in here. Remember this is the tech section of the site not the war zone.
I'm a Quaker, last thing I want is a war. I just have no idea why I get chewed out by 2 other members for stating my 2 cents in regard to the facts presented in the post.
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My mistake when I got the boat it wads 496 I'm guessing that's a 060 over so that was an error with the 030 over, my bad.
My hour meter on my boat is original and read the low hours.
Obviously the block at one time was a 454 stock. The guy I bought it from original owner said he bought it wasn't excited with its power so had it bored, heads, different exhaust, intake and larger carb. Again, not a builder, but he didnt mention multiple builds so is it typical to go stock to a 060 over? Doesn't change the fact the block has under 150 hrs at time I collected it.
My MX bikes when racing, had 100's of hours on them, I've on occasion rejugged (top end/head) but that was rare. But one of my bikes had 3 builds on it still runs like a champ today and competitive. These are 250cc and 450cc very small compared to a 454 block
89' Eliminator
Stroked BBC Berkley Jet
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I'm sure it's possible someone built it that way in '89 and those are the original hours - and if your boat is super pristine I might even agree. But my guess is that this build was done later, and those are the hours since the last build not since 1989. Personally I'd reuse very few parts from an engine failure, I'll build them and rebuild them but once they fail I feel like I'm putting the money I spend on the new parts at jeopardy. I'm an underpaid civil servant so I have to be very careful with my dollars - if I spend all the money on new parts to put together with parts involved in a failure, and it fails again I'd likely not be able to afford another rebuild till next year. I rescue idiots who have done more idiotic things than you can ever imagine, so forgive me if I sound overly cautious.
The plus side is you get to start from scratch, there are many published proven combinations of parts to choose from.
Have fun!
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Love working on motorcycles and atv's too - have even welded-up aluminum heads. BUT the big difference between those and the boat is that an engine failure on your motorcycle, or atv sure is a bummer and might be very inconvenient where an engine failure on your boat can be life threatening. If this was an airplane engine and you had to ride in it, would you reuse much?
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WTF? I'm not the guy that blew his engine??? I'm just a guy that said it appeared to have EATEN that cam. I didn't ask for anything especially some pompous blowhards resume in the mail. My engines don't come apart EITHER...so what?
Oops...I didn't catch the name...just read the post and sounded like the OP being cocky. Sorry
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Oops...I didn't catch the name...just read the post and sounded like the OP being cocky. Sorry
No problem, I figured as much. :thumbup:
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Nope, not me getting cocky....but nice recovery there 😉
89' Eliminator
Stroked BBC Berkley Jet
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I have built a few engines in my time.
The problems tend to start when one relies on the recommendations of another without the all important second opinion.
While building a bunch of horsepower is fun, it must be reliable. It had always been my opinion that the ONLY way to accomplish this is to either overbuild the living snot out of it, or de tune it so it can't break itself.
The weak link on the big block Chevy is almost always valve train. That being said, there are parts available now that were not readily available to the average Joe just a few short years ago.
Tough costs money.
There is no reason these days to utilize a flat tappet cam, rollers have come a long way. The amount of impact on the system the roller profiles eliminate is unreal.
Do the research, talk to the pros, get second opinions, even third and you will be fine.
Just remember, a 700HP motor only makes 700HP at wide open throttle. You control your own destiny as far as how hard you run it.
Marathon engines in most cases stay together because of how they are built more than the parts that are used. A build can go bad with just one tolerance left under engineered.
GT
Btw, that was a nice recovery......
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