SoCal Jet Boats

Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: Ralph Brunt on April 03, 2010, 05:11:57 AM

Title: john kaase on oil pumps
Post by: Ralph Brunt on April 03, 2010, 05:11:57 AM

basically ford stuff but you get the point

The most frequent call we get at work is people with oil pressure problems. The funny thing is, it's never the pump itself. Come to think of it, in all my years of building engines, I've never seen a pump that didn't work. Of course you have the ones that break off and fall into the pan. Or the ones that have the cup plug work its way out and shoot the relief spring out. The impeller that we use is a standard volume, 1.100" wide. It's the same one that is in the Moroso dry sump pumps found on our 825" Pro Stock engines. We have measured over 17 gal/min flow in these engines. It is plenty big for any engine.

The #1 problem we see is when the wrong lifters are used, or they are installed backwards. When they are in backwards, the small oil hole in the lifter side directly connects with the main oil galley. When this happens, all the oil will be pumped up the pushrods to the top end, and run the pan dry. I'll try to put some pictures up. We have a client that bought one of our pumps, and had almost no oil pressure. We sent him another pump, same result. This is when we built out pump dyno, so we could make sure they were working properly when we sent them out. We free flow them, then close the pump exit with a ball valve, then open it back up a little so that it holds about 40 lbs. Dead headed, they're always 75-80 lbs. Anyway, after working with the man for many days, we find out that he rebuilt the engine at the same time he bought the pump. It had good oil pressure bebore the rebuild. When he assembled the engine, he got mixed up and installed the lifters backwards.

We also had a guy with our pump that had low pressure using an Eliminator block. Some of these blocks take the oil pressure at the back, like a stock block. The problem was that the lifter lines were restricted with a small orifice, as they should be, except the oil pressure was taken at the end of this restricted line. When he moved the pressure gauge line to the front, by the oil filter, it was fine.

We are seeing another problem, where the pickup bolts to the pump. Often times, the pickup leaks here, sucks in air, and makes the oil real foamy. Most of the pickups have a thin flange, 3/16", and if a thick gasket was ever used on it, it warps and leaks when a new gasket is installed with a new pump.

Last week, a guy called with low pressure, and found his new A-460 block had a low spot between the 2 pump mounting holes. It was .007" low between the studs and was freely flowing oil out from under the pump.

Since we're in the oil pump business now, and have sold over 300 pumps, we are seeing lots of problems that can cause confusion. Every day we have at least 1 caller with a pressure problem. As new problems come up, I'll discuss them here. Kaase

Title: Re: john kaase on oil pumps
Post by: GT Jets on April 03, 2010, 10:17:20 AM

Ralph,

I really hope this question is not a stupid as it feels.......... :-\


How in the F do you install lifters backwards? I have literally never heard of that before.   ???

Sorry if I am retarded.  ;)

GT

Title: Re: john kaase on oil pumps
Post by: enginedoctor on April 03, 2010, 10:41:42 AM

I cannot Imagine that at all either,please tell :sly:

Two things I have seen are:
1. Lifters with NO oiling holes in lifter body

2. Lifters with UNDERSIZE lifter outside diameters.

Both of which will cause oiling problems.....but upside down lifters ??? ???

Title: Re: john kaase on oil pumps
Post by: GT Jets on April 03, 2010, 10:53:00 AM

After thinking about this long and hard........He is talking about roller lifters, they don't rotate like a flat tappet deal and the oil holes are on one side of the lifter barrel.....The lifter bores have the oil hole on one side causing a force feed...I think....

This is why you should groove the oil hole, at least that is what we do on the Bowtie stuff, Blue Oval tricks are a thing of mystery to me..... :screwy:

And yes, this was driving me crazy. :banghead:

GT

Title: Re: john kaase on oil pumps
Post by: Ralph Brunt on April 03, 2010, 03:58:31 PM

ding,ding,ding we have a winner^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
when the tie bar faces the block instead of the lifter galley

Title: Re: john kaase on oil pumps
Post by: enginedoctor on April 03, 2010, 05:10:44 PM

Who mentioned a roller lifter ??? Guess back to  "dont assemble an engine if you have doubts"

Did I miss someone mention Roller lifters, well I think if they get the roller facing the cam ...thats a start.Geez!

Title: Re: john kaase on oil pumps
Post by: beerjet on April 03, 2010, 07:12:55 PM

Quote from: enginedoctor on April 03, 2010, 05:10:44 PM

Who mentioned a roller lifter ??? Guess back to  "dont assemble an engine if you have doubts"

Did I miss someone mention Roller lifters, well I think if they get the roller facing the cam ...thats a start.Geez!

You gotta figure when he is mentioning an 825" motor, its not getting a flat tappet lifters.
 That was a dead give away for me .

-beerjet-

Title: Re: john kaase on oil pumps
Post by: enginedoctor on April 03, 2010, 07:50:58 PM

Quote from: beerjet on April 03, 2010, 07:12:55 PM

You gotta figure when he is mentioning an 825" motor, its not getting a flat tappet lifters.
 That was a dead give away for me .

-beerjet-

Bullshit Omar.....the point is....WHY would anyone attempt to do the assy if they do not have the exp. Flat /roller/solid or otherwise....Stock engine or 1000hp... or more ....whats the difference....Thats where the assy comes in ...Stock or modified if the pre-assy or final assy is wrong  the engine will always fail.  Let An Expert Assemble :mad:  

Grrrrrrrrrrrr. :-*  ................Omar......... :screwy: "pre assemble,pre-assemble till it's CORRECT!   Measure, measure ;D

Title: Re: john kaase on oil pumps
Post by: Ralph Brunt on April 04, 2010, 06:39:17 AM

i have no specifics, it was just a write from http://www.jonkaaseracingengines.com/ (http://www.jonkaaseracingengines.com/) and who am i to argue with what he says ??? ???

Quote from: enginedoctor on April 03, 2010, 07:50:58 PM

Bullshit Omar.....the point is....WHY would anyone attempt to do the assy if they do not have the exp. Flat /roller/solid or otherwise....Stock engine or 1000hp... or more ....whats the difference....Thats where the assy comes in ...Stock or modified if the pre-assy or final assy is wrong  the engine will always fail.  Let An Expert Assemble :mad: 

Grrrrrrrrrrrr. :-*  ................Omar......... :screwy: "pre assemble,pre-assemble till it's CORRECT!   Measure, measure ;D

and my point is i just wired my 220v air compressor and had no idea what i was doing. (same but different)

Title: Re: john kaase on oil pumps
Post by: beerjet on April 04, 2010, 08:35:04 PM

Quote from: enginedoctor on April 03, 2010, 07:50:58 PM

Bullshit Omar.....the point is....WHY would anyone attempt to do the assy if they do not have the exp. Flat /roller/solid or otherwise....Stock engine or 1000hp... or more ....whats the difference....Thats where the assy comes in ...Stock or modified if the pre-assy or final assy is wrong  the engine will always fail.  Let An Expert Assemble :mad: 

Grrrrrrrrrrrr. :-*  ................Omar......... :screwy: "pre assemble,pre-assemble till it's CORRECT!   Measure, measure ;D

I agree 100%
But some people see something and say "I can do that."
Pfft !
Actually , no you cant.

-beerjet-

Title: Re: john kaase on oil pumps
Post by: enginedoctor on April 04, 2010, 09:24:54 PM

just trying to get your attention Omar...thanks for the reply and happy easter ;D

keeping you alert 8)

Title: Re: john kaase on oil pumps
Post by: beerjet on April 04, 2010, 10:49:34 PM

Quote from: enginedoctor on April 04, 2010, 09:24:54 PM

just trying to get your attention Omar...thanks for the reply and happy easter ;D

keeping you alert 8)

YEE !!!!

If I had the money and most importantly knowledge to even attempt an 800" motor , flat tappets would be the furthest thing from my mind.
As far as assembly on any motor goes it should be the same routine.
Check, double check, repeat .
I think.

And Happy Easter to you Dave
 ;D

-beerjet-

Title: Re: john kaase on oil pumps
Post by: enginedoctor on April 04, 2010, 10:59:36 PM

Ya omar....by the way...
her tits were sh, sh shak'in TODAY ;D
 :-*

Title: Re: john kaase on oil pumps
Post by: beerjet on April 05, 2010, 12:11:17 AM

(https://www.socaljetboats.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10034/boobies4.gif)

-beerjet-