SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: Ema Non-Performance Marine - BANNED on January 18, 2008, 09:21:37 AM
-
There is the 6 pac rod and then the LY - LY's are prefered by me as they are beefy but not overly heavy like the 6pacs.
Lets see some pics and some weights. I am going to be using them in my next build, so as much info as possible is good. I keep hereing how strong they are, I would like a bit more info.
-
I'd like a lot more info on Mopars in general. Especially stroker engines using various manufactures parts.
Are 440 blocks and parts rare yet? How about 6 pack set-ups?
-
Six pack set ups used to be $500. Now they are 4x that!!! They work great if set up properly which isn't too hard to do. 383, 400, 426W, 440 can all be built to run equally hard, just in different RPM ranges. Check www.440source.com for everything you will need at the best prices. 6pack rods aren't used much because they are sooo heavy. They are a little more complicated to build compared to BBC if longevity is important.
-
Lets see some pics and some weights. I am going to be using them in my next build, so as much info as possible is good. I keep hereing how strong they are, I would like a bit more info.
ST, the 6-pak rods are indeed too heavy for the rpms you may be turning your particular engine in question, meaning that the LY rod will have sufficient stregnth for the application.
LO
-
I'd like a lot more info on Mopars in general. Especially stroker engines using various manufactures parts.
Are 440 blocks and parts rare yet? How about 6 pack set-ups?
I was born and rasied a Mopar nut, had my share of cars: 1964 Polara 2-dr w/383, 1970 300 2-dr w/440, 1968 Coronet 2-dr, 1969 Imperial 4-dr, w/440/727/Sure-Grip, etc. That being said, I am quite out of touch and had better let Speedmopar answer a lot of these questions...but there''s a few things I'd like to say in reply to your post:
Mopars, nice as they are, can be very very expensive. 440's were installed into the production lineup vehciels for only about 10 years (vs. Ford 30+ years and BBC 35+ years), and so the 440 is the least produced of the three and therby can be pricey. OEM parts are more scarce than the other two of the Big Three, and this also rings true for marine parts. But they have potential up the ying-yang, what with their OEM tall decks, OEM strong rods, OEM forged cranks, etc. These days, though, get out your visa card, in fact get out about 6 visa cards. That's the main reason I dont mess with them today. Of course there are aftermarket parts and in fact I will be using some Eagle 7.100" rods in an upcoming build.
LO
-
I'd like a lot more info on Mopars in general. Especially stroker engines using various manufactures parts.
Are 440 blocks and parts rare yet? How about 6 pack set-ups?
I got a whole six pack engine that's blown up, yours for $4000
-
Mopars, nice as they are, can be very very expensive. 440's were installed into the production lineup vehciels for only about 10 years (vs. Ford 30+ years and BBC 35+ years), and so the 440 is the least produced of the three and therby can be pricey. OEM parts are more scarce than the other two of the Big Three, and this also rings true for marine parts. But they have potential up the ying-yang, what with their OEM tall decks, OEM strong rods, OEM forged cranks, etc. These days, though, get out your visa card, in fact get out about 6 visa cards. That's the main reason I dont mess with them today. Of course there are aftermarket parts and in fact I will be using some Eagle 7.100" rods in an upcoming build.
Mopars expensive? Old news, parts are right in line with BBF and BBC nowadays.
-
Who's the owner of the orange Challenger?
-
Mua
-
Mopars expensive? Old news, parts are right in line with BBF and BBC nowadays.
Are you saying that OEM 440 Mopar blocks, heads, cranks, rods, etcetera cost no more than BBF and BBC OEM components these days?
LO
-
I think that is exactly what he is saying, but his French sux ;D
-
Are you saying that OEM 440 Mopar blocks, heads, cranks, rods, etcetera cost no more than BBF and BBC OEM components these days?
LO
Absolutely. 440 stuff, 360 stuff, 318 stuff is all cheap.
There's only a few exceptions, Hemi, 340.
I've built BBC, BBF, and BBD and they're all about the same prices
The small block dodge has been around about only about 1 year shorter than a Chevy 350. The big blocks have been used in utility vehicles and motorhomes up into the early 90's.
-
Absolutely. 440 stuff, 360 stuff, 318 stuff is all cheap.
There's only a few exceptions, Hemi, 340.
I've built BBC, BBF, and BBD and they're all about the same prices
hahahahahahahah, now that's funny Plus Rod doesnt know about mopar's ;D
-
... The small block dodge has been around about only about 1 year shorter than a Chevy 350. The big blocks have been used in utility vehicles and motorhomes up into the early 90's.
That may be true but the small block Chevrolet has been in production since 1955 and since 1957 (283) remained unchanged (minus displacement) until 1967 or 1968 when the bearings were changed. So comparing the small block Mopar to only the 350 Chevy isn't fair in any respect. I don't recall the exact year they changed the small block Chevy again and went to a one-piece rear main seal, somewhere around 1987 I think.
BTW, the small block Chevrolet was designed in 1917 and was deemed too expensive for production. Memory getting a little faded but I think it might have been designed by the Dodge Bros., not sure on that last one at all.
-
Lets see some pics and some weights. I am going to be using them in my next build, so as much info as possible is good. I keep hereing how strong they are, I would like a bit more info.
The LY rod was the beefiest internaly balanced rod made. 6.76 inches in length with a 1.094 pin. They weigh around 850-860 grams, and have a 2.375 big end.
I know personally, with a VERY heavy Speedpro piston, I was able to turn 8500 RPM without failure for 15 years. When I did break it, the block actually broke at the lifter galley, causing a chain reaction which snapped a rod (part of the block jammed between the rod and the block causing both to break). So the failure is suspect, and may not have been the rod's fault.
The heavy 6 pac rods were designed for the super stockers turning 6700 RPM, but it was discovered that the lighter LY rods not only did the trick, the ability to internally balance and have a lighter bob weight was preferred.
I wouldn't say 440's are rare, there are plenty of sources around to get them. However if you are going to compare a 440 to a Chevy 350, well, there aren't nearly as many of them. The Mopar Big block ended production in 1978, which is why you don't see them in new boat / cars / trucks. However certain limited factory options are rare, such as cross rams, long rams, 6 pac's etc. Those go for big bucks and mostly are used by the "factory" guys trying to replicate the best there was from the factory in 1970.
Mopar was always big on induction - The Ram Chargers invented the modern day tunnel ram, and had wild factory induction like the long ram manifolds (the carbs hung out over the FENDERS!) which peeked out at 4700 RPM, had 6 pac's, holly 4bbls, and the all plastic 1000 CFM thermoquad with 2.25 inch secondaries which kept the fuel cool to allowed higher compression. They also worked on the exhaust - anyone ever hear of the factory cast iron headers? Heavy but legal in stock class racing.
They were a big bore, short stroke configuration, which is great for RPM potential. The one nice thing about mopar is - they don't change stuff unless they absolutely have to. None of the gee this manifold will only bolt to these heads, which only fit this block. Pretty much you can get any BB mopar, and everything from every year will bolt on. No different lifter angles, no pattern changes, no funky block heights.
There are 3 blocks, the small block (LA), the B (383-400) and the RB (413-440).
The stock small block can go to ~430 ci, the B 512 ci, and the RB 543ci. This assumes the max overbore on the stock block. With aftermarket blocks, the cid can go higher, and with raised cam blocks, even higher still. A standard KB aluminum block can handle a 4.75 stroke, 4.6 bore or 631 ci. I actually don't know what the raised cam blocks will handle.
Now that the Chevys have been played out and there is so many incumbants for heads, blocks, etc; other manufactures to grow market share first started with Fords, and now they are getting into the Mopars. When I started, there wasn't ANY aftermarket parts. You mixed and matched factory parts until you got the right combo. There used to only be one stroker crank, a 4.15 stroke, which ran about $4500 but gave you 512 ci. If you didn't want that much, then you took your 3.75 stock stroke 440 crank, offset ground it to the 2.2 inch BB Chevy size and with the right pistons and Chevy rods, created a 470 ci engine. There was .070-.090 rod side clearance, but it didn't seem to affect anything but oil pressure. A HV oil pump took care of that. Nowadays you can get a rod with a Chevy bearing size, but a Mopar width with either Chevy or Mopar pin.
Now, there are many rod, block, head, and crank manufacturers, so you can build pretty much any combo you want. Look at Edelbrock and 440source for heads. Cheap nowadays. I spent 6K on my bulldogs on the 528, if I would have waited several years, I could have gotten something much cheaper.
On the boat engine, I took a 400 block, a 440 forged crank, the 400 rods, and bought an off the shelf KB piston to create a 451. The 400 is a Junker smog motor, so no one wants them. In reality, they were just low compression with smog controls and lean burn ignition, they really had all of the same parts on them as the "good" engines. Most rebuilds change the pistons anyway, so that isn't an issue. Swap out the ignition to an MSD and jet up the carb, and suddenly all of the issues with the 400 go away.
I got the 400 for $250, recond the rods for $125 inc ARP bolts, the pistons were $250, and I cut my old 440 crank for $200. Not a whole lot in the engine. While I decided to use my race heads I had in the garage, I could have easily used the 452 heads that were on the 400 engine.
The one feature (in addition to block and crank strength) that really would be benificial in a marine engine, is the oil system. Oil has NO issue getting back to the pan - factory big blocks survived with a 4 quart pan! Obviously for reliability reasons when using a sustained high RPM configuration (or racing) you want more oil, 6-7 quart pan is all you need (more doesn't hurt, but not needed, even with the 20 GPM KB billet pump).
Post more later.
-
... BTW, the small block Chevrolet was designed in 1917 and was deemed too expensive for production. Memory getting a little faded but I think it might have been designed by the Dodge Bros., not sure on that last one at all.
The more I think about this one, the more I think I phocked it up. I think the Hemi was designed by Chevrolet in 1917 and Dodge bought the design many years later.
:P
I think Zora Arkus Duntov (sp?) designed the small block Chevrolet.
-
BTW, thanks speedymopars ;)
-
There is an urban legend about the legendary General Motors engineer Zora Duntov (aka,father of the Corvette). Before coming to GM, he designed a set of Hemi heads that were retrofitted to the Ford flathead V-8. Legend has it that Chrysler somehow "borrowed" the design from Duntov. Nothing could be further from the truth. Duntov didn't know anything about what Chrysler was doing, and Chrysler had entered into Hemi engineering long before Duntov began construction of his aftermarket, bolt on heads. If anyone at Chrysler was aware of the Duntov innovation, it was certainly never acknowledged.
The first Chrysler Hemi was actually a pushrod V16 airplane engine making somewhere around 3500 HP and pulled a P-47 at 504 MPH at 15000 feet. The "normal" 2800ci(!) engine could only muster 427 Mph. WW2 was going on, so all development efforts were focused really in airplanes and tanks. By all accounts it looks like the hemi design started around 1937.
They saw how efficient the hemi head was and how it performed, so they moved it to the automotive engines (not very emissions friendly though, that is what finally killed it). The 331 firepower (hemi) was the first one out around 1950, based on a block that is very simular to the modern day small block Hemis. The big block hemi came out around 1964.
The first recorded use of a Hemispherical combustion chamber was a four cylinder affair that powered a car named the Welch. There seems to be a conflict as the origin of the Welch - it was either an American or British company. Chrysler was also not the first company to test or use the Hemi heads on an engine either -Miller racing. Duesenberg. Stutz. Offenhauser. All high performance machinery. All with Hemi type heads. Chrysler was the only company to patent it, market it, and continue development on it until it was the best head that is still winning races in all types of motorsports with very little change to this day.
-
The first hemi was a 241c.i and it was in 1951 ;)
Ok question speedy Mopars, is the 383 rod the same length as a 440 rod? Sam crank journal diamters?
-
The first hemi was a 241c.i and it was in 1951 ;)
Ok question speedy Mopars, is the 383 rod the same length as a 440 rod? Sam crank journal diamters?
Damn, forgot about the 241. Doh! well at least I got the year right (I did say around).
The 440 rod is 6.76, the 400 rod is 6.358. When you put the 440 crank / 440 rod in the 400 block, you end up with a really light piston that is short but requires an oil ring support; I wanted to have the ability to use nitrous in the future, so I went with the little heavier, but more durable piston which uses the shorter 383/400 rod with the 440 crank. Comp height is still .3 shorter than the stock 440, so bobweight is reduced. The bearing and pin diameters are the same for all Mopar Big blocks.
-
Lets see some pics and some weights. I am going to be using them in my next build, so as much info as possible is good. I keep hereing how strong they are, I would like a bit more info.
Here is the deal we are going to build a Pro Stock engine that is 440ci. That is the same engine Fast Ass Ford runs. It is a .060 BBF block and a .060 under 429 crank with the 440 rods. I am looking for wieghts on the stock rods as I have been told they are as strong as I could ever want.
So please give me some more factual info please !
-
Anyone that has run one of these or knows about the combo please chime in.
-
... That is the same engine Fast Ass Ford runs. It is a .060 BBF block...
I thought he said he ran a small block Ford?
-
It is a small Big Block 440ci ! ;D
-
Here is the deal we are going to build a Pro Stock engine that is 440ci. That is the same engine Fast Ass Ford runs. It is a .060 BBF block and a .060 under 429 crank with the 440 rods. I am looking for wieghts on the stock rods as I have been told they are as strong as I could ever want.
So please give me some more factual info please !
The LY rod was the beefiest internaly balanced rod made. 6.76 inches in length with a 1.094 pin. They weigh around 850-860 grams, and have a 2.375 big end.
I guess the only thing I could add is that the big end width is 1.014"; and looking at my last set of aftermarket 440 rods they weighed in a 748g.
-
What is the going cost of a set ?
-
400 to 500 clams
www.440source.com/rods.htm
-
That is cool for a new rod I would like a set of used stock rods, as I have been told they are very hard to hurt.
-
That is cool for a new rod I would like a set of used stock rods, as I have been told they are very hard to hurt.
I agree. The blocks usually come apart before the rods, and the blocks can handle about 900 HP....
Obviously do the prep though, new ARP bolts, polish, shot peen.
-
I agree. The blocks usually come apart before the rods, and the blocks can handle about 900 HP....
Obviously do the prep though, new ARP bolts, polish, shot peen.
That is a given, damn I wish I still had all my old race parts. BGF 440, Vanolia pistons, 426 heads and a big blower.
I will need a set of good used rods, do you know of any ?
-
That is a given, damn I wish I still had all my old race parts. BGF 440, Vanolia pistons, 426 heads and a big blower.
I will need a set of good used rods, do you know of any ?
Here are my last set of 440 rods:
-
I only have 2 complete sets of 400 rods. I could find you some pretty easily though if you want me to look. I assume the budget is way less than 400 bucks, 'cause you can by new ones from 440source for $439.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/440-30-OVER-PISTONS-AND-LY-RODS-COMPLETE-SET_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33623QQihZ020QQitemZ300190005082QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
Get 'em quick, ends in 2 days.
-
I know L&R also had some 440 rods, If you are looking or have a need for a machine shop, they could probably help on both counts.
L&R Engine
13731 Bora Drive,
Santa fe Springs, CA 90670
(562) 802-0443
-
I will have to give them a call next week !
Thanks