SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: socaljst1970 on September 13, 2014, 02:37:31 PM
-
hey gang - going crazy here... :banghead:
bitter sweet situation - sold Deuce and picked up a pickle deck boat - 2001 Tom Papp 21 Mirage Fundeck jet loaded with all I want and more
502 w/merlin heads - aeromotive fuel system, lightning headers, MSD, and all the hot stuff from my drag days long past.
I did pick it up knowing it had a starter issue and a pump leak (rope seal)
anyhow - its grinding and not turning at all or when it does i can get a half rotation out of it before it compresses back against the starter and poof - grind again.
bottom line - def cant get it on the water yet since i cant even get it to start once in a hundred tries. Last time i had it started I wish the ramp was close enough to get to before overheating. lol.
The starter (shown) is apparently the second starter its had recently and my question is if two starters have been doing this, what do i look for? and heaven forbid i do need a flywheel or flex plate, who around is trusted to pull the motor and do it? I dont want a nightmare obviously, just an honest and reasonable shop that KNOWS what the problem is and can fix it. Sitting around in the house with the kids staring at me and my new dead boat is pretty tough :/
Help me out gang - thanks in advance!
-
That's a lot of metal coming off of somewhere. If you want to try and do this your self, about the only way I know of on a top mount to check engagement is to paint the teeth on the flywheel and the drive. Then you can crank it a couple times, pull the starter off and see what's going on. The flywheel will always stop in one of 4 places. Your big problem is there's not much you can do to relocate that starter with out removing the bell housing as far as I know.
If you don't want to mess with it, take it to GS Marine in Norco. Greg is your best bet for a very knowledgeable and reputable shop.
http://www.gsmarine.us/ (http://www.gsmarine.us/)
-
Pull the spark plugs when you check for engagement.
That is a reverse rotation starter?
-
That is what I was going to ask also Ron
Sent from my VK810 4G using SoCal Jet Boats mobile app
-
if it somehow turns out to be a bad starter...theres a shop down by me, anaheim, that is very good with rebuilding them...for much less than a new one(mine was reverse rotation top mount...320+ for new). ive had several rebuilt by him...between myself and some of my buddies. turn around time is quick as well. i would guess...$100 to rebuild. thats based on our experiences. good luck :thumbup: :beer:
-
Get a new bell house and put the starter down on the side of the block.
Sent from my iPhone using SoCalJetBoats mobile app
-
and that fixed it...??
-
it is a reverse rotation starter since its top mount, yes. - i dont think i will rebuild this starter since looking up the part # online, its a $120 unit. 6966N
anyone have experience with a IMI branded unit?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261300039570?item=261300039570&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:X:AAQ:MOTORS:1123&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261300039570?item=261300039570&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:X:AAQ:MOTORS:1123&vxp=mtr)
-
Wow....mine was 3 times that amount for the 460
-
Is your motor a high compression motor? Not sure if top mounts work so good with a built motor.
We run a Meziere starter on our performance motor.
-
I am going to assume it is due to the parts i do know about. Hard to know for sure until i can get it to crank of course. The merlin heads, crane rollers, aeromotive fuel system and strip dominator intake which doesnt do much until 4500rpm by design all tell me best guess would be yes. When i got it to start yesterday it ran on the trailer and did have 'that' sound we all know of a higher comp built motor. PLAPiity plap plap :)
I think i will get a gear reduction, high torque unit and start there.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261300039570?item=261300039570&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:X:AAQ:MOTORS:1123&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261300039570?item=261300039570&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:X:AAQ:MOTORS:1123&vxp=mtr)
-
so installing a starter in traditional location got it to where you can start your motor??
well.....glad to hear the PLAPitty, plap plap :thumbup:
-
:) no..... the old tale from yesterday (above) I did get it started then - just not enough to trust it (not even close) on the water. Did just order the HiTq unit from eBay - Bob, the seller, seems to really know his stuff on starters - will know Tuesday if it was the right move
DAMN its hot outside when i am not in CL Cove :/
-
If your still having problems , I went to a shop in Murrieta , VES on Beckham ct that guy tested my starter opened it up to see if he could rebuild it, decided for the cost difference just to go with a new , guy was also very knowledgeable
Sent from my iPad using SoCalJetBoats
-
We did one of these last week. That fabricated adaptor most likely does not have parallel surfaces which will prevent the starter from engaging straight with the flywheel.
We find that the tolerances of the adaptor and the engine plate are typically off as well. The solution for that is to offset bore for the starter register diameter and add set screws at 12-oclock and 6-oclock so that the starter can be adjusted towards and away from the flywheel. You will then need to paint the teeth as icecreaman suggested, so that you can set the appropriate lash by adjusting the setscrews in small increments. Loosening the bottom and tightening the top setscrews moves the starter closer to the flywheel. Try to achieve .030 between the peak of the starter gear teeth and the root of the flywheel gear teeth. You can observe engagement in the pattern developing where the paint wears off the teeth.
You might also be surprised at how much runout your flywheel has.
Good luck,
Joe
-
Thanks all for the great info and helpful tips.... new starter (gear reduced IMI) comes tomorrow.
need more advice and experience from ya....
in case it is the flywheel, I am sure not equipped to pull the motor, BUT, check these pictures closely. Is there any reason i cant take apart the joint, pull the PTO and bell housing and install a new flex plate all with the motor still in?????
on a side note - this boat is canyon lake registered - anyone know who originally owned it? have some questions.....
-
You have a rail kit, no need to pull the engine. 4 bolts and the drivline comes out and another 4 bolts and the flywheel cover comes off. The starter mount bolts to the rear engine plate and can stay on the engine so you can see the starter engagement. The PTO and flywheel can also come off without pulling the engine but there is no need to pull them unless damaged.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using SoCal Jet Boats mobile app
-
thanks for the awesome news! :thumbup: :beer:
will be tearing that portion down tonight after work (if maybe its under 110 outside :mad: )
-
thanks for the awesome news! :thumbup: :beer:
will be tearing that portion down tonight after work (if maybe its under 110 outside :mad: )
The starter needs to be shimmed. The bell housing design is really poor. The starter sags and pulls the starter away from the flywheel. The ring in front of the starter needs to be milled down around 3 deg.
Good luck.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using SoCal Jet Boats mobile app
-
Thanks - I thought it looked like it was sagging also, but have yet to find anything not square, will have the flex cover off tonight.
And for your fix, do you mean the round starter adapter should be milled down on the top portion only? And is 3 degrees exactly what it needs or just a educated guess?
Thanks again for chiming in on this! Appreciate all the help I can get
-
Thanks - I thought it looked like it was sagging also, but have yet to find anything not square, will have the flex cover off tonight.
And for your fix, do you mean the round starter adapter should be milled down on the top portion only? And is 3 degrees exactly what it needs or just a educated guess?
Thanks again for chiming in on this! Appreciate all the help I can get
Yes the round adapter. If you look at the mating surface of the round adapter to the bell housing you will see it isn't flat. It vibrates and slowly mushrooms until its not flat. Use a straight edge on the round adapter and ypu will see what im talking about. The angle was told to me at one time, but that could have been a guess from the person I heard it from. The round adapter needs to be milled off the top matting surface to allow the starter to sit parallel with the flywheel. Right now the ass end is sagging and the gears are not lining up. Stick a washer under the mounting bolt just to try it. Not around the bolts just below them to allow the starter to rock.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using SoCal Jet Boats mobile app
-
Excellent info - cant wait to get back to the house now! Anxious to get on it - easy fix on the milling as I work in an area surrounded by machine shops. Thanks again BR!!!!!!
-
Thanks to all again for all the info, especially Dave (Beaver Retriever) - here is the piece going to get cleaned up tomorrow at a machine shop. Will shim it via a machine shop and put an end to this madness :) New starter from IMI showed up today - almost a shame to get it dirty :)
Found the link below at archive.org regarding the original web ad for the boat back in the day, kinda cool :) From everything I read Tom Papp was a pretty cool Kat!
thanks gang! will update with pics for the hell of it when i get the starter adapter back from the machine shop tomorrow!
https://web.archive.org/web/20030207231704/http://www.tompappracing.com/models.htm (https://web.archive.org/web/20030207231704/http://www.tompappracing.com/models.htm)
-
Was so excited to mount up after machine shop forgot to take pictures. They milled three degrees from top as suggested and voila! Perfect mesh and starts right up. Hope this thread lives and helps someone else in the future. Thanks again to Dave :-) :-)
Sent from my SCH-I605 using SoCal Jet Boats mobile app
-
BAM!
mad props to BR for coming thru with the fix!
-
BAM!
mad props to BR for coming thru with the fix!
SO SO TRUE!
Quick splash test on the ramp to verify a few things - Saturday AM here we come!
http://youtu.be/riECL6ZTVlc?list=UUuN1gVNIFpEj5kXrTRE4iTQ (http://youtu.be/riECL6ZTVlc?list=UUuN1gVNIFpEj5kXrTRE4iTQ)