SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: OC2Vegas on February 23, 2011, 10:11:48 AM
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With the different Gens of 454's out there I wanted to see what all of your opinions are on the different blocks. I know some of the difference's on them but go ahead and list what you know about them, but most of all list what you like and dont like about them.
Lets try not to turn this into a Chevy vs Ford thread...
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With the different Gens of 454's out there I wanted to see what all of your opinions are on the different blocks. I know some of the difference's on them but go ahead and list what you know about them, but most of all list what you like and dont like about them.
Lets try not to turn this into a Chevy vs Ford thread...
They all work fine, assuming they are assembled correctly. Some guys are "afraid" of the newer Gen 5 and 6 blocks, but they actually have improved oiling developed by GM. The Gen 6 was designed to work better with aftermarket and MK IV cylinder heads. Gen 5 and Gen 6 blocks both have different style timing covers, but use the same oil pan. The other thing is most of the Gen 5 and 6 (not all) do not have provision for a mechanical fuel pump.
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If I was starting from scratch... I would look for a deal on a decent core for either a Mark IV or a Gen 6 because....
The Mark IV because of the huge availability of good used parts and decent pricing on the required new parts
The Gen 6 because of the improved designs and bigger cubic inch cores to start with (8.1L/496ci without an aftermarket stroker crank)
I would stay away from the Gen 5 unless you already have one and don't want to use it as a planter.
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If I was starting from scratch... I would look for a deal on a decent core for either a Mark IV or a Gen 6 because....
The Mark IV because of the huge availability of good used parts and decent pricing on the required new parts
The Gen 6 because of the improved designs and bigger cubic inch cores to start with (8.1L/496ci without an aftermarket stroker crank)
I would stay away from the Gen 5 unless you already have one and don't want to use it as a planter.
Parts pricing on Gen 5 and 6 stuff is virtually the same as MK IV,,,
As I pointed out,, Gen 5 should probably be limited to GM late model heads, but 088's are ok
How do you build a 496 from a Gen 6 454 block without stroking it? Are you saying the Gen 6 454 will bore beyond the .060" that GM recommends?
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How do you build a 496 from a Gen 6 454 block without stroking it? Are you saying the Gen 6 454 will bore beyond the .060" that GM recommends?
What I meant was that the factory 8.1L Gen 6 is already 496ci without having to use any aftermarket parts.
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What I meant was that the factory 8.1L Gen 6 is already 496ci without having to use any aftermarket parts.
What years and models did the 8.1L, 496 BBC come in?
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496's came in 2500-3500 GM trucks 2001-2007, Avalanches (2500) and some vans
496's have a different firing order than old school SBC/BBC's.
Gen V And VI doesn't have a fuel pump boss, Gen V heads don't have an adjustable valve train.Gen V heads may not interchange with MkIV or Gen VI ( .575" lift wont work with these non adj. rockers)
They do have a 1 piece rear main seal and a 1 piece reusable pan gasket. Gen V and VI are roller cam ready. Gen VI Timing chain covers need the crank position sensor (port?) blocked off (non EFI), and needs to be clearanced for a double roller timing chain.
Mk IV or Gen VI is the way to go.
I'm Still trying to find out if a 496 crank will fit in a Gen VI 454 block (clearancing req'd?)
Thats all I got...
Daniel
Mash on it
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The 8.1 liter 496 was kind of a "bastard" engine,, don't bother looking for one. They did have a stroked crank, no increased bore to make the cubic inches, and no "regular" Chevy stuff will work with it,, made from about 2001-2009 by what I have seen.
"Important differences between the Vortec 8100 and older big blocks include a changed firing order (1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3), a new 18-bolt head bolt pattern, different symmetrical intake ports, different oil pan rails and the use of metric threads throughout the engine."
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Lets try not to turn this into a Chevy vs Ford thread...
Before I go on my BBF campaign.... ;D ...let me just opoint out that I am ansewring to other posts, so don;t say that I started it! ;D
LO
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Some guys are "afraid" of the newer Gen 5 and 6 blocks, but they actually have improved oiling developed by GM.
No, General Motors stole that basic oiling system design from Ford, who released it in 1969. 8)
LO
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a new 18-bolt head bolt pattern,
Again, from Ford. 8)
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With the different Gens of 454's out there I wanted to see what all of your opinions are on the different blocks. I know some of the difference's on them but go ahead and list what you know about them....
Ha! You think your confused now, wait till you read my summarization of the mess that Chevfrolet created:
- The Gen V & VI blocks have the oil passageway alongside the cam and into the lifter valley instead of down the oil pan rail as on the Mark IV. The oil pans do not interchange between these blocks and in fact, the Gen V & VI use a one piece rear main seal and different oil pan then the Mark IV.
- Timing covers were changed between all three block configurations.
- The Gen VI uses a cam thrust plate, not the Mark IV. But the Gen V and Mark IV also have provisions to use this plate if a Gen VI cam was to be used.
- The oil filter boss on the Mark IV uses a bolt-in adapter with an oil pressure relief inside, while the Gen V & VI filters mate straight to the block with a screw-in adapter and push-in oil pressure relief valves into the block itself.
- Both Gen V & VI do not have a fuel pump boss, while the Mark IV does.
- The Gen VI lifter bores are longer/higher with a machined flat surface to accept the roller lifters and their retianers; Gen V and Mark IV blocks cannot use the Gen 6 roller lifter and would need aftermarket.
- Coolant flow on both the Gen V and VI were redesigned to increase flow...coolant passages were also made larger on the Gen V and Gen VI, therefore making it more difficult to use Mark IV heads on these newer blocks (though people have done it with some success).
- The 10.200 "Tall Decks" are a different animal altogether.
- Etcetera
LO
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Ha! You think your confused now, wait till you read my summarization of the mess that Chevfrolet created:
- The Gen V & VI blocks have the oil passageway alongside the cam and into the lifter valley instead of down the oil pan rail as on the Mark IV. The oil pans do not interchange between these blocks and in fact, the Gen V & VI use a one piece rear main seal and different oil pan then the Mark IV.
- Timing covers were changed between all three block configurations.
- The Gen VI uses a cam thrust plate, not the Mark IV. But the Gen V and Mark IV also have provisions to use this plate if a Gen VI cam was to be used.
- The oil filter boss on the Mark IV uses a bolt-in adapter with an oil pressure relief inside, while the Gen V & VI filters mate straight to the block with a screw-in adapter and push-in oil pressure relief valves into the block itself.
- Both Gen V & VI do not have a fuel pump boss, while the Mark IV does.
- The Gen VI lifter bores are longer/higher with a machined flat surface to accept the roller lifters and their retianers; Gen V and Mark IV blocks cannot use the Gen 6 roller lifter and would need aftermarket.
- Coolant flow on both the Gen V and VI were redesigned to increase flow...coolant passages were also made larger on the Gen V and Gen VI, therefore making it more difficult to use Mark IV heads on these newer blocks (though people have done it with some success).
- The 10.200 "Tall Decks" are a different animal altogether.
- Etcetera
LO
LO
I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge, but part of the reason for changes between Gen 5 and Gen 6 was so that the Gen 6 block is able to run MK IV style heads.
Also, at least some of the Gen 5 and/or 6 blocks do have fuel pump bosses(although most do not),, can't tell you which, maybe just tall deck truck blocks, would need to look and see what I currently have here. Along that same subject, some Gen 5/6 cams have fuel pump lobes on them, some do not.
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No, General Motors stole that basic oiling system design from Ford, who released it in 1969. 8)
LO
Its too bad that ford oil pumps like to shear off and ruin a good weekend...gm might of borrowed the idea, but also fixed...i mean really who wants a front sump oil system anyway? Besides when is the last time you built a performance motor without advising a rear sump deal?
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what do you guys think of a complete GEN 5 454 HO minus the mani with about 15k miles for 800 bones?
have a family member lookin for quick cash due to a divorce :banghead: and wanting to get rid of his BBC...GOOD DEAL???
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what do you guys think of a complete GEN 5 454 HO minus the mani with about 15k miles for 800 bones?
have a family member lookin for quick cash due to a divorce :banghead: and wanting to get rid of his BBC...GOOD DEAL???
This was a new crate engine, or someone rebuilt it? Which heads are on it? As previously mentioned, the Gen 5 block limits which cylinder heads will work without water leaks, and you probably have to run an electric fuel pump. If it has tiny peanut port heads, and cast pistons, don't know that it's worth very much as a marine engine, or rebuildable core.
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Also, at least some of the Gen 5 and/or 6 blocks do have fuel pump bosses(although most do not),, can't tell you which, maybe just tall deck truck blocks, would need to look and see what I currently have here. Along that same subject, some Gen 5/6 cams have fuel pump lobes on them, some do not.
Yes, I mentioned that the Tall Deck blocks are a different animal. In regards to some Gen V & VI cams having fuel pump lobes and some not having them, that's simply a matter of the factory using whichever cam cores they have available at the time of manufacture.
LO
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Its too bad that ford oil pumps like to shear off and ruin a good weekend...gm might of borrowed the idea, but also fixed...i mean really who wants a front sump oil system anyway? Besides when is the last time you built a performance motor without advising a rear sump deal?
Nordie,
1) Any engine on the planet may be set up as either front sump or rear sump, regardles of manufacturer. No-one should have to spell that out for you. (But as far as your pointless issue goes: what if the engine is flipped around as in a v-drive???)
2) Ford oil pumps do not "shear off" by design. A few (perhaps 15 out of 3 million M84 pumps) failed as a result of the hot rod artist's ignorance to proper setup and installation (as Ford recommends but many dismiss). And that is the fault of the hot rod artist, not the engineering design. A good BBC analogy might be some ignoramous complaining about losing camshafts and lifters because he didn't understand the cam button dealio in his particular BBC engine combination.
3) The Ford oil pump and distributor drive are in the front of the engine because that's were the timing chain is tugging on the camshaft. Putting those components at the rear of the engine (as in a BBC) is cause for increased torsional loads (read: twisting) of the camshaft as an engine's performance level (stiffer valve springs, etc) is increased.
4) The BBC is notorious for having the lousy spur gear oil pump, not the Ford. Fords have the superior gerotor mechanism, which allows the oil to be bypassed back to the inlet side of the oil pump which--in effect--"supercharges" the pump (figuratively speaking) and thereby minimizes the pump loading caused by 100% of the oil always being drawn from the sump. The BBC's lousy spur gear oil pump beats up the oil so badly that chevy is FORCED to bypass it back to the pan and allow the air bubbles to rise to the top of the sump before the oil is routed back to the oil pump. If chevy did not do this, your BBC would last about 5 minutes in your jet boat before chewing up every last bearing in the engine. And so Titan comes out with an aftermarket BBC oil pump to address this issue and all the BBC hot rod artists hail it...but guess what? It has a Ford gerotor mechanism. Once again, Ford parts in a chevy. ::)
Know what you're talking about before shooting your mouth off. ;D
LO
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Maybe I am wrong, I am pretty sure I have a standard deck Gen 6 with fuel pump boss stashed in my garage, but the description of the GM Gen 6 454 HO crate engine seems to confirm what I was saying: http://sdparts.com/details/gm-performance-parts/12568774 (http://sdparts.com/details/gm-performance-parts/12568774)
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It's days like this that make me wonder why people spend time fighting over who is second best. Why don't you all just run Mopars? Put a factory 440 crank in a bored 383 block, bolt on the small valve heads, add a nasty mechanical cam, and you get 550 hp 550 ft. lbs. of torque from 3700 to over 5K rpms. Oh yeah cuz nobody can find logs for one. :banghead:
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Why on Earth :mad:
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Ya know...I dont know how many times I had to read this to figure out wtf is goin on!
Pretty sure I got it....Jus putt'n in my 1 cnt.!.... In my opinion & humble at that, I found this to be one of the most disturbing , misguiding, and most of all detouring threads to earn a customer's faith.
I can't add more at this time....except for very user unfriendly.
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It's winter and all us boat bitches tend to get a bit strange. Plus everyone's opinion seems to be a bit more strongly held when it comes over the internet. I don't really think anybody has really gotten their feelings hurt. Although I admit the answers have probably gotten a bit confusing for the OP. I'm going dirtbiking with the grommets to dispel the cabin fever. The dirt should be EPIC! :thumbup:
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With the different Gens of 454's out there I wanted to see what all of your opinions are on the different blocks. I know some of the difference's on them but go ahead and list what you know about them, but most of all list what you like and dont like about them.
Lets try not to turn this into a Chevy vs Ford thread...
And everyone thinks the Ferds are complicated............................ :screwy:
Ray
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Glasscutter, have fun...Ray you too...see you all at Puddingstone ;D!
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Ya know guys....No matter what you are building, it's all good...Everyone has their preference... :)
With that being said, I still lack alot to add to this thread ...Except PROFESSIONALISM from a biz. stand point is super fowl.....let's get back to building rockets................... :)..boats .cars.... So sad to see this type of stuff on SCJB.
This turned out to be an "I know it all thing ".....SHAME :thumbdown:
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Nordie,
1) Any engine on the planet may be set up as either front sump or rear sump, regardles of manufacturer. No-one should have to spell that out for you. (But as far as your pointless issue goes: what if the engine is flipped around as in a v-drive???)
2) Ford oil pumps do not "shear off" by design. A few (perhaps 15 out of 3 million M84 pumps) failed as a result of the hot rod artist's ignorance to proper setup and installation (as Ford recommends but many dismiss). And that is the fault of the hot rod artist, not the engineering design. A good BBC analogy might be some ignoramous complaining about losing camshafts and lifters because he didn't understand the cam button dealio in his particular BBC engine combination.
3) The Ford oil pump and distributor drive are in the front of the engine because that's were the timing chain is tugging on the camshaft. Putting those components at the rear of the engine (as in a BBC) is cause for increased torsional loads (read: twisting) of the camshaft as an engine's performance level (stiffer valve springs, etc) is increased.
4) The BBC is notorious for having the lousy spur gear oil pump, not the Ford. Fords have the superior gerotor mechanism, which allows the oil to be bypassed back to the inlet side of the oil pump which--in effect--"supercharges" the pump (figuratively speaking) and thereby minimizes the pump loading caused by 100% of the oil always being drawn from the sump. The BBC's lousy spur gear oil pump beats up the oil so badly that chevy is FORCED to bypass it back to the pan and allow the air bubbles to rise to the top of the sump before the oil is routed back to the oil pump. If chevy did not do this, your BBC would last about 5 minutes in your jet boat before chewing up every last bearing in the engine. And so Titan comes out with an aftermarket BBC oil pump to address this issue and all the BBC hot rod artists hail it...but guess what? It has a Ford gerotor mechanism. Once again, Ford parts in a chevy. ::)
Know what you're talking about before shooting your mouth off. ;D
LO
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Maybe I am wrong, I am pretty sure I have a standard deck Gen 6 with fuel pump boss stashed in my garage, but the description of the GM Gen 6 454 HO crate engine seems to confirm what I was saying: http://sdparts.com/details/gm-performance-parts/12568774 (http://sdparts.com/details/gm-performance-parts/12568774)
Thanks for the correction. Does this mean that all Gen VI's had fuel pump bosses, or that Gen VI's may or may not have them? If it's the latter, then it only furthers the convoluted mess around all the different BBC blocks. :P
LO
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It's days like this that make me wonder why people spend time fighting over who is second best. Why don't you all just run Mopars?
Ha! ;D I miss all my old Mopars, from the 1964 Polara 500 to the 1970 Chysler 300 (and several in between).
LO
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.... I found this to be one of the most disturbing , misguiding, and most of all detouring threads to earn a customer's faith.
I can't add more at this time....except for very user unfriendly.
enginedoctor, why do you say that? After just re-reading this thread in its entirety, I think this has been a very informative thread. It covers everything BBC and touches on the other brands in the process. :D
I also see that you quoted a post of mine, and did so after ranting about unprofessionalism, and things of that nature. Do you care to explain why? Because everything I stated in that post is 100% true, and also keep in mind that it was a reply to another's post (all my posts in this thread are)...meaning, I didn't bring anything up that wasn't unsolicited. This is a forum and two-way discussions should be welcomed so that each of us may become enlighted by participating in them. :) And in regards to the original question at hand (differences between Gen IV, Gen V, Gen VI), frankly I think I have provided more BBC info than anyone else on this thread. Why do you dismiss that fact and then twist the reasoning for my posts about Ford? Talk about biased...I'd say that would be you. :(
I like to help people and provide them with whatever information and assistance I can, and I do so with great enthusiasm. And I resent your trying to make me out as a bad guy for doing so. I feel there is a great deal of really good info on this thread, and from everyone...except for you. To date, you have not provided a single shred of informaton to this thread that is relative to the topic or any of its offshoots. So before you go making thinly veiled, vastly distorted, and presumptious claims about who I am and where I'm coming from, you damn well better be sure that the statements are factual or you'll find yourself in serious legal trouble.
Now go take a second look at this thread in its entirety and you'll see that your posts in this thread contribute nothing relative to anyone else that has posted, while mine are all replies to points noted.
I think you owe me an apology,
LO
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Thanks for the correction. Does this mean that all Gen VI's had fuel pump bosses, or that Gen VI's may or may not have them? If it's the latter, then it only furthers the convoluted mess around all the different BBC blocks. :P
LO
I have worked with some with, but most that I have seen do not. I think any that came installed in trucks do not have them (due to EFI).
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I no longer read this thread for information regarding BBC blocks, I only check it to see who is striking at who. We should rename this thread... :beer: :beer: :beer:
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I'm confused why there is any information about Ford motors at all in this thread! :banghead:
For the ones that posted useful info about the differences in the BBC engines, Thanks!
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Hey OC2vegas....Give this guy a call....I am sure he can answer anything you need to know, he has always been very useful to me in every respect..... For any engine !
1-800-533-8010 Jim Tapp!.. (www.goodson.com (http://www.goodson.com))
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Sooooooooo.............. I'm a little confused. I am building a GEN 6 right now. Do I need to buy a FORD oil pump? And then were you guys saying that it goes in the front on the fuel pump boss? is this the same for the Mk 5? It is going in a Lincoln! O0
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I'm confused why there is any information about Ford motors at all in this thread! :banghead:
Couldn't agree more with this statement!
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I'm confused why there is any information about Ford motors at all in this thread! :banghead:
For the ones that posted useful info about the differences in the BBC engines, Thanks!
OC2Vegas,
Just want to make clear that I posted in here with the full intent of enlightening you about BBC engines just as you asked. :D First, I made BBC corrections/clarifications to previous posts (my posts #9 & #10), and then I posted for you my own BBC input (Post #11) which I think is pretty thorough and mostly 100% accurate (thanks for the update, Obnox.). None of this is meant to confuse you about Ford engines; it is to inform you about chevy engines. More specifcally, if you want to learn about BBCs and then talk with other BBC enthusiasts, you should be well informed. While I may be a Ford enthusiast, please read those posts again (9, 10, & 11) and you'll see that I did not bash the BBC in those posts; I simply provided clarification...clarification that might very well prevent you from inadvertently putting your foot in your mouth had you stated otherwise to BBC guys that that know better and may not want to get into the Ford aspects.
Most everyone that knows me and has met me personally knows very well I have a tremendous amount of enthusiasm which I present with a smile on my face, and thereby understands where I am coming from. Unfortunately, in cyberspace things might get taken out of context (especially by those who do not know you personally) or as they wree intended, and yet others just attack, attack, attack. Some forums are just like that... Frankly, my post #8 was an good humored attempt to diffuse such a fiasco before anyone jumped on that band wagon.
Hope you are seeing things as I intended them. :) I never came into a BBC thread in defense of Ford until someone drew the anti-Ford card first.
LO
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I'm confused why there is any information about Ford motors at all in this thread! :banghead:
Couldn't agree more with this statement!
HUH??? Nordie, you're the one that initiated this fiasco. :screwy: You're the one that threw the first stone. You did so with the following statement (below):
Its too bad that ford oil pumps like to shear off and ruin a good weekend...gm might of borrowed the idea, but also fixed...i mean really who wants a front sump oil system anyway? Besides when is the last time you built a performance motor without advising a rear sump deal?
Up until that post of yours, this was a thread with info with regard to the BBC. After that post of yours where you directly bash the Ford, I came back told it like it is...again.
It seems that as soon as Ford and Chevy are so much as mentioned in the same thread, all hell breaks loose.
Sheez, ::)
LO