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beerjet

  • Karma: +81/-0
1.7 vs 1.8
« on: March 02, 2014, 08:28:39 PM »
where is the tipping point between the two?

-beerjet-

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uncleBOBBY

  • Karma: +2/-0
1.7 vs 1.8
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2014, 08:31:14 PM »
where is the tipping point between the two?

-beerjet-

Huh??
Im assuming at .05 or somewhere near there


SRC 🚤💨
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beerjet

  • Karma: +81/-0
Re: 1.7 vs 1.8
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2014, 08:56:12 PM »
Huh??
Im assuming at .05 or somewhere near there


SRC 🚤💨
Why use one or the other...

-beerjet-

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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 1.7 vs 1.8
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2014, 09:07:36 PM »
Why use one or the other...

-beerjet-

Need a little more info there sweet cheeks...

What are you building and what do you want it to do?
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

svssr95

  • Karma: +6/-1
Re: 1.7 vs 1.8
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2014, 09:13:53 PM »
Why use one or the other...

-beerjet-



Sometimes you just need both :thumbup: :thumbup:
  • Boat #1: 76 Hallet
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beerjet

  • Karma: +81/-0
Re: 1.7 vs 1.8
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2014, 09:16:07 PM »
Sometimes you just need both :thumbup: :thumbup:
that's what I've heard.
Guys using the 1.8's for more duration on either the intake or exhaust side.

-beerjet-

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beerjet

  • Karma: +81/-0
Re: 1.7 vs 1.8
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2014, 09:17:27 PM »
Need a little more info there sweet cheeks...

What are you building and what do you want it to do?
I'm not building anything in particular.
 Just wondering what necessitates one or the other.

-beerjet-

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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 1.7 vs 1.8
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 10:11:21 PM »
The shortish answer...

The valve train is a complex machine and rocker ratios can be used to dial in the dynamics much the same way as a carburetor with jet size, accelerator pump displacement, power valves etc.

Certain engine build variables require the ability to adjust the lift/duration and short of purchasing a custom ground cam, rocker ratio is a great tool, where I see it more and more is with small base circle camshafts in stroker applications (for added crank to cam clearance). That is actually where I became familiar with the practice of using off the shelf cams and playing around with the ratios.

This becomes really odd when you start having single carbureted engines making extreme RPM and horsepower, if you think about the intake manifold and exhaust designs, great lengths are taken to ensure the exhaust lengths are as close to the same as possible, this becomes very difficult with an intake, simple logistics. The technology is getting there, but unless you are running a sheet metal intake (like a Hogan's), there is little chance for the intake runners to flow anywhere near as equal as the exhaust.

When we built one of the screaming small blocks, we got some dyno time from a technical school in Oregon, we had a 380" small block Chevy turning over 8,200 RPM and found that the corners liked more intake ratio, meaning there were four 1.7:1 rockers in a 16 valve pushrod motor, the intakes needed the added valve lift to get equal HP from each hole.

You can also "dumb down" an aggressive cam and alter the valve geometry for reliability, this is a process in which you can use shorter ratios on a cam that is technically "too big" for the engine at hand and make it work quite well, this would be the redneck way of getting the sustained torque numbers that a jet requires. Not done too often, but I personally know of three big block Chevrolet's  that have a cam that should be in a bracket car that could pull Jack's beanstalk straight out of the dirt... One of them is in a 4X4 pull truck.

Anyway, rocker ratio is not a "bigger is better" deal, more of a "you could always adjust it out" type thing. You just have to remember that you have to redo the math of the cam card every time you dick with it...

GT
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 10:45:29 PM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: 1.7 vs 1.8
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2014, 12:11:37 AM »
Not all rockers are created equal.  Even rockers that are rated with the same ratio can apply that ratio at different points of tappet lift.  I wanted to share a quote, I just can’t say it any better, in a short amount of time.

The following is a quote from http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2005/08/QuickLift

The idea of using a rocker arm as a multiplication device is quite simple. By acting as a lever the mechanical advantage serves to multiply the lift at the cam lobe to increase the overall valve lift or distance the valve opens off the seat. The amount of multiplication is termed the rocker arm ratio. A rocker arm ratio of 1.6:1, for instance, would indicate the arm moves the valve 1.6 times that of the lobe lift at any given point. If the cam specifications indicate a max lobe lift of .350", a 1.6:1 rocker arm would result in the valve moving .560" off the valve seat.

If you look at any cam card you will see listed the maximum valve or lobe lift. We deliberately used that same figure in our example above to set up another important point - rocker arms are not really a fixed ratio. The rocker arm ratio is theoretically calculated by dividing the perpendicular distances from roller-tip centerline to fulcrum and pushrod-cup centerline to fulcrum.    However because these points move in an arc, as the pushrod rises and valve drops, the rocker arm ratio also varies. Early factory rocker arm designs would start off the valve at significantly less ratio than maximum. For instance, a 1.6:1 OEM rocker arm would start off as low at 1.47 and approach 1.6 at max lobe lift. It is likely this gradual multiplication was largely designed to keep the early two piece valves from breaking by slamming closed too quickly.

QuickLift - The geometry of the rocker arm determines the rate at which a rocker arm ratio is achieved. By changing the location of the pushrod seat relative to the center of rotation of the rocker arm, the rocker ratio can be achieve in one of three way. It can gradually approach the maximum ratio, stay fairly constant, or, as in the case of Crane's QuickLift design, the ratio can start off high and then tapers down to the final ratio.

Tailoring valve performance into the rocker arm offers advantages over utilizing only camshaft lobe profiles. For one, as mentioned earlier, there are limitations presented by the lifter type. While roller lifters offer the ability to use aggressive lobes, there is still a limit to how fast the lifter can move. “In the end, the engine only responds to the valve, it doesn't care whether the added lift, duration or valve acceleration is due to the cam or the rocker arm.” says Mark Campbell, Vice President of R&D at Crane Cams. By moving the pushrod seat down further in relation to the center of rotation, the pushrod cup travels upward and outward along its arc.    The result is very quick valve opening, and at a much higher initial ratio. For example, a 1.60:1 Crane shaft rocker arm with QuickLift technology will come off the seat at 1.72:1 up until .200" valve lift. Then it will taper down to 1.62:1 and maintain this until the valve returns to 0.200" and the ratio is back to 1.72:1 on the seat. This does result in closing the valve harder against the seat, however with aftermarket one piece valves and high quality valvetrain hardware, this is not an issue. The benefit of a quick opening is two fold. First, there is as much as six degrees more duration in the low lift range. Secondly, this is achieved with the same seat-to-seat timing. The intake valve, for instance, is opening more and thus enabling greater cylinder fill, and then closing fast. This is not only measurable with a degree wheel and dial indicator but also on the dyno, where roller rockers with QuickLift put out 15-18 more horsepower than rocker arms which works up towards the advertised ratio at maximum lift.
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: 1.7 vs 1.8
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 01:37:05 AM »
The shortish answer...

The valve train is a complex machine and rocker ratios can be used to dial in the dynamics much the same way as a carburetor with jet size, accelerator pump displacement, power valves etc.

Certain engine build variables require the ability to adjust the lift/duration and short of purchasing a custom ground cam, rocker ratio is a great tool, where I see it more and more is with small base circle camshafts in stroker applications (for added crank to cam clearance). That is actually where I became familiar with the practice of using off the shelf cams and playing around with the ratios.

This becomes really odd when you start having single carbureted engines making extreme RPM and horsepower, if you think about the intake manifold and exhaust designs, great lengths are taken to ensure the exhaust lengths are as close to the same as possible, this becomes very difficult with an intake, simple logistics. The technology is getting there, but unless you are running a sheet metal intake (like a Hogan's), there is little chance for the intake runners to flow anywhere near as equal as the exhaust.

When we built one of the screaming small blocks, we got some dyno time from a technical school in Oregon, we had a 380" small block Chevy turning over 8,200 RPM and found that the corners liked more intake ratio, meaning there were four 1.7:1 rockers in a 16 valve pushrod motor, the intakes needed the added valve lift to get equal HP from each hole.

You can also "dumb down" an aggressive cam and alter the valve geometry for reliability, this is a process in which you can use shorter ratios on a cam that is technically "too big" for the engine at hand and make it work quite well, this would be the redneck way of getting the sustained torque numbers that a jet requires. Not done too often, but I personally know of three big block Chevrolet's  that have a cam that should be in a bracket car that could pull Jack's beanstalk straight out of the dirt... One of them is in a 4X4 pull truck.

Anyway, rocker ratio is not a "bigger is better" deal, more of a "you could always adjust it out" type thing. You just have to remember that you have to redo the math of the cam card every time you dick with it...

GT

Hi GT,

Have you ever played with swapping ratios on the strong and weak intake ports of a BBC?  That is something I am dying to try.

Thanks,

Joe
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

 


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