SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: propless on December 25, 2010, 10:59:19 PM
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I've seen more and more of the Chevy clan going with those newer LS whatever style motors. So, lets say "someone" just cant get excited about building his BBC for his project and wants something different. Lets also say this "someone" would rather stay in the Blue oval camp than join the Chevy clan.
What are the ups and downs of the modern Ford motors ? This "someone" can get his hands on a 4.6, 32 valve, MK 8 motor really really cheap (all Aluminum). And has looked at the 5.4 Lincoln 32 valve motor (iron block/heavier). And even the V 10.
Why am I not seeing anyone using these motors in boats, like the Chevy guys are with there new toys ? Is it just there physical size thats holding them back, the 4.6 is as big as an old Hemi, I'm told. Or is it the lack of displacement ? Lack of "off the shelf parts" to put it in a boat ?
In my "someones" looking he has found stand alone ignition boxes (no need to keep the computer) and even one set up the puts a dist on the valve cover. So ignition is not a problem. Carb intakes and even a blower (671) set up has been seen and doesnt look all that tough (how hard can it be ;)).
What do you Ford guys think, is it time to show the Chevy clan that modern Ford motors can work in a boat too ? Or is this "someone" missing something here. :-\
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Do it :thumbup:
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Because they simply just arent ls engines
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They are absolutely awesome engines and we are beginning to see them used in hot rod applications now that they are becoming more abundant in the wrecking yards.
The aluminum blocks are cast in Italy and have been known to sustain 1500 hp abuse. The ports on the 4-valve heads are intriguing, in that the paired runners for each cylinder are each unique unto itself and not siamesed--one is shaped for low end power and one is shaped for upper end rpm --and are thereby engineered to maximize the engine's power band width. And aftermarket parts availability is starting to really happen.
LO
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Are we talkin 4.6? Beacause I am currently in the process of building a 100+ thousand dollar 56 Tbird that has a 98 R Model Cobra 4.6 and a 5 speed Tremec. And from personal experience the motor is bitchen but it takes more flippin wires to run that motor than should be legal. We (my shop) have had more truoble with the computer on it than we would like, and after about a month and a half we have finally figured out what is wrong (there were some codes that didn't get burned out of the system) and hopefully when we get the computer back the motor will run like a raped ape. But as far as putting the motor in a boat, I say dare to be different and go for it.
SJ
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was this :beer: close to puting a v10 in a project. hull was junk! gp for it!
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was this :beer: close to puting a v10 in a project. hull was junk! gp for it!
Any idea what the V 10 weighs ? I cant find much info about them. I'm sure ignition would be an issue with them (extra cylinders), but it would be high on the cool factor. And the displacement is there.
Anyone have any info that would make these motors (V 8 or V 10) "un boat friendly". I have seem some talk about them spitting spark plugs, and heard something about some oiling issues with the early ones (small oil passages ?). But the Mustang guys seen to have figured them out and are building insane power with them.
This just has to be workable, I thinks its time some modern technology came into the Blue oval boat camp.
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Fords new 6.2L gas motor is 385 hp & 405 tq :thumbup:, And the 6.7L diesel is 390 hp, 735 tq, dare to be diffrent (6.7L turbodiesel bubbledeck jetboat ;D) The V10 would have an odd cool factor too, 5 primary tube headers. (5 2bbl carbs? 10 side drafts? :screwy:)
Daniel
Mash on it
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That 6.7 weighs in at 1100 pounds....have at it!
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Were NOT disusing diesels here (yuck :screwy:). But, out of curiosity any idea what the gas V 10s weigh ??
It looks like I'm getting an early all aluminum 4.6, 32 valve motor soon, actually its a complete car, Lincoln MK 8 (bad trans and bad air bags). Anybody need any Lincoln parts ?
This is going to be interesting, and Ironman is going to have a fit figuring out how to make a front motor plate for this thing. I bet he looks at it, shakes his head and stops answering my calls. :-\
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Lincoln Mk8 anything like a linc town car Proppy ???
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Nope, MK 8 was Lincolns version of the T bird. Like this http://fresno.craigslist.org/cto/2109666460.html (http://fresno.craigslist.org/cto/2109666460.html)
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My 83 yr old father has one of those. Paint is bad but the rest of the car is immaculate. Currently has 63,000 miles on her. He drove almost 800 miles all of last year! Wish the interior was better suited for my 6'6" frame but I'm afraid when he can no longer drive it will have to leave the family. :(
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The triton v10 weighs in at 640lbs...thats less than the 460...but why waste your time on it...those things wont even keep a spark plug in...why not get a viper v10 making over 500ponies? And have already been ran in boats? The all aluminum 4.6 with a blower would be your best bet...kind of off topic but doesnt josh from jbp have a 400 plus inch ford sb in a jet making good numbers?
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Propless-
I'm with you on WANTING to do the "modern" thing. Debated that a few months ago when I decided I needed to replace the Olds in my boat with something either: (A) more common, or (B) more "modern". Looked at "modern" bowtie products, and Ford & Dodge too. The problem as I see it is that there's not (yet) a readily available (read AFFORDABLE - at least for me) supply of ancillary parts to support bolt-in installations. I'm talking front/rear plates, and exhaust manifolds, and the like. Plus the cost to build a "modern" engine exceeds that of common engines (BBC) by a fair margin, for similar power output. It can all be done, but it's going to cost a bunch more for custom plates and water-cooled headers and the like. Unless you're really talented at building all that stuff on your own, and have the equipoment & time to do it. My conclusion was that unless you really just want to be different (and that's cool!), it's just not cost-effective to stray from the BBC.
My 2 cents.....
Matt
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Mat,
That price thing is a bitch. I was just looking at what 32 good valves will cost, plus 4 cams, a rotating kit, oiling system, and all the other internal parts to make the thing a good HP friendly long block (lots of parts in these things). And like you said, then theres all the externals, headers, intake for the blower, oil pan (all need to be custom made). Not to mention what a good machine shop will charge just to do the heads on a 32 valve V 8 (thats alot of work).
But I'm not giving up on the idea, there has to be a way to make this more cost effective.
The triton v10 weighs in at 640lbs...thats less than the 460...but why waste your time on it...those things wont even keep a spark plug in...why not get a viper v10 making over 500ponies? And have already been ran in boats? The all aluminum 4.6 with a blower would be your best bet...kind of off topic but doesnt josh from jbp have a 400 plus inch ford sb in a jet making good numbers?
Less than a 460, hmmm. From the searching I did it looks like the plug issue shows up after someone changes them. I saw that you should never remove a plug from one while the heads are still hot/warm, it screws the threads somehow. Always use anti seize on them and dont tighten over 15lbs of torque. But it is an issue, I saw a post on some forum from a Ford tech that they are told to not change plugs now unless its absolutely needed. They must have cast them with that same Aluminum/marshmallow material that the "Mexico" heads on the V 6 I took apart where made out of. :sly:
Oh yea, and dont you think I have enough problems in my live already without you trying to make me a Moper owner. :screwy: ;D
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I seen a cut away of a 4.6 head and they showed the problem...it lies in tge threads themselves...you simply just dont catch enough threads
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Oh yea, and dont you think I have enough problems in my live already without you trying to make me a Moper owner. :screwy: ;D
You should be so lucky as to be a Mopar owner. Nothing makes more torque for less money and nothing will run longer. Just sayin' . . .
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Most people would beg to differ...pshhhh
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if your plugs keep blowing out of the heads have some inserts put in there. I had a 98 gt mustang that I was pushing a 25o shot of apray thru it and it held after the inserts. I was even considering putting a 4.6 in a boat but theres all the custom parts that have to be made; mounts, driveline adapters and not to mention the wiring night mare even if you get the carb adapter kit and external dizzy I think itll cost a TOn of money, and i know im gonna get flamed on this but there just werent very good engines, they didnt make very much power per their displacement and had numerous issues. the V10 made like 330 hp and like upper 300 possibly low 400 torque, but you can EASILY get that out of a small block chevy or what not. Dont get me wrong I LOVED my 4.6 to death and stroked it out to a 5.0 even, but in my opinion its alot cheaper and simpler to get a BBC or BBF to run in your boat, but if youd hell bent on trying it, thatdd be bad ass to see. Hell im even thinking bout plopping this old 3.0 inline 5 turbo diesel mercedes engine i have in a hull and seeing what happens just for the hell of it lol.
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Most people would beg to differ...pshhhh
That just proves that "most people" don't know what they are talking about. How many wrenches couldn't figure out your Duramax problems? I remember like yesterday how when I told the dealer that "the shifter just came off in my hand" after they had "fixed" my shifter problem for the 3rd time "that can't happen." It took two more dealers and 3 more trips to get it fixed right.
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Ok my .02. These Cobra guys are making good power and real good torque down low, albeit most of these guys are boosted in one form or another. Most of these engines are lighter than other stuff out there are readily available, many factory alum blocks you just have to look around. There is a guy on another board who put a 6-71 on a 4v with mega squirt and makes pretty good power. He did it with a drill press and a skill saw. EFI is really the way to go with this as well. Turbo guys are really flogging these motors with something in the realm of 30psi of boost. Pretty cool in my book. I fixed an intake manifold for a guy who was making 35psi of boost. This thing was nuts to say the least, and what is cool is that my work stayed together.... ;D
T.J.
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That just proves that "most people" don't know what they are talking about. How many wrenches couldn't figure out your Duramax problems? I remember like yesterday how when I told the dealer that "the shifter just came off in my hand" after they had "fixed" my shifter problem for the 3rd time "that can't happen." It took two more dealers and 3 more trips to get it fixed right.
Yeah it was fixed i chose to do it myself and learned from my mistakes...but thats ok i would take that over a modern day gas guzzling turd they call a hemi...im not talking about the old hemi here cause they were on to something with those....i was just razzing u a bit but we can go rounds again...
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Ok my .02. These Cobra guys are making good power and real good torque down low, albeit most of these guys are boosted in one form or another. Most of these engines are lighter than other stuff out there are readily available, many factory alum blocks you just have to look around. There is a guy on another board who put a 6-71 on a 4v with mega squirt and makes pretty good power. He did it with a drill press and a skill saw. EFI is really the way to go with this as well. Turbo guys are really flogging these motors with something in the realm of 30psi of boost. Pretty cool in my book. I fixed an intake manifold for a guy who was making 35psi of boost. This thing was nuts to say the least, and what is cool is that my work stayed together.... ;D
T.J.
You talking about the guy that put one in a FFR 33
http://sites.google.com/site/arrowheadshotrodsite/Home/reinstalling-blower---9-10 (http://sites.google.com/site/arrowheadshotrodsite/Home/reinstalling-blower---9-10)
http://sites.google.com/site/arrowheadshotrodsite/Home/thats-it-for-now---910 (http://sites.google.com/site/arrowheadshotrodsite/Home/thats-it-for-now---910)
That thing is mean looking :thumbup:
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I've seen more and more of the Chevy clan going with those newer LS whatever style motors. So, lets say "someone" just cant get excited about building his BBC for his project and wants something different. Lets also say this "someone" would rather stay in the Blue oval camp than join the Chevy clan.
What are the ups and downs of the modern Ford motors ? This "someone" can get his hands on a 4.6, 32 valve, MK 8 motor really really cheap (all Aluminum). And has looked at the 5.4 Lincoln 32 valve motor (iron block/heavier). And even the V 10.
Why am I not seeing anyone using these motors in boats, like the Chevy guys are with there new toys ? Is it just there physical size thats holding them back, the 4.6 is as big as an old Hemi, I'm told. Or is it the lack of displacement ? Lack of "off the shelf parts" to put it in a boat ?
In my "someones" looking he has found stand alone ignition boxes (no need to keep the computer) and even one set up the puts a dist on the valve cover. So ignition is not a problem. Carb intakes and even a blower (671) set up has been seen and doesnt look all that tough (how hard can it be ;)).
What do you Ford guys think, is it time to show the Chevy clan that modern Ford motors can work in a boat too ? Or is this "someone" missing something here. :-\
Were making "C" Impellers for a guy who has installed a 4.6 Lincoln modular in a 18 Sleekcraft jet and working on a SWTD for the same application it turns a "A" 4100 and 55 mph, he says the motors good to 7k (performs well to 6) (thus the "C") he's sharing the mounts and headers he built as well , he uses a modified GM HEI run off the front of the motor and a intake plennum adapted to the lower OEM intake to utilize a Small Holley "Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your Door" ;)Tom
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Thanks Tom, I would be interested in seeing a shot of the front mount if possible. I've seen the HEI style ignition kits, as well as ones that mount to the front of one of the valve covers, and MSD makes a module that will run the factory coil on plug system without using the factory computer.
There was a company called Karkraft that sold alot of cool parts for the 4.6 and 5.4 motors. Adapters that allowed the use of SBF intakes, blower (671) manifolds, ignition systems, duel carb upper manifolds that used the stock lowers (like what you refereed to). They had tons of cool stuff, but I think there gone now. Cant find them anymore, but I do see some of the stuff on Ebay once and awhile.
A pic of there duel carb upper manifold, just saw one on Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-5-4-CARBURETED-MODULAR-LINCOLN-8V-MANIFOLD-/390274629263?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5ade2e3e8f (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-5-4-CARBURETED-MODULAR-LINCOLN-8V-MANIFOLD-/390274629263?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5ade2e3e8f)
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And the intake adapters http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-4-6-MODULAR-CARBURETED-INTAKE-MANIFOLD-/320630773195?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4aa71555cb (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-4-6-MODULAR-CARBURETED-INTAKE-MANIFOLD-/320630773195?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4aa71555cb)
A single carb upper manifold http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-5-4-CARBURETED-MODULAR-LINCOLN-4V-MANIFOLD-/320634459939?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4aa74d9723 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-5-4-CARBURETED-MODULAR-LINCOLN-4V-MANIFOLD-/320634459939?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4aa74d9723)
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a 32v 5.4 supercharged engine could easily put you in the 600+ hp range. however do you REALLY want to put this huge freakin thing in your boat? along with all the associated gear, fuel pumpS, etc?
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autoblog.com%2Fmedia%2F2006%2F02%2FGT500-engine-1.JPG&hash=52d5f314bcca46c279417df4d08c9dfe78a50cf6)
im a big fan of mustangs, ive owned 4 and i love them in cars, i just dont think they're great for boating. my 4.6 and 5.4 in my truck are really tall and wide engines... they also dont like moisture down in the plug holes.
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Nope, dont want to put that in a boat. I want to put this in a boat >:D Everyone knows, real blowers have teeth on the belts, not grooves. And be careful, it looks like someone chopped part of your valve cover off there bud. ;D
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Also, sense I dont need a waterpump, and I can run a alt off the back of the motor. I could get rid of all that ugly serpentine belt stuff.
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As you can see from the photo, Proppy, Ralph and Brad have already looked into the 685 pump gas HP available from a "small" Ford big block.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffordifiedracing.homestead.com%2Ffiles%2F727sohc.jpg&hash=1d5bb18fca4b29a1161e6aac1b6cb2957715dfaa)
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:o :o :o A V 12 ?? I WANT ONE !!!!!!
How about a 427ci DOHC V10. >:D To bad they kept it out of production. >:(
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Well guys, the "donor car" arrived on the tow truck tonight. >:D It started right up and idled nice, no funny noises. It had a slight miss when revving it but at any constant rpm its smooth. Too bad the transmition is bad, would have been nice to let it have a nice big final smokey burnout before stripping it. I started pulling the useless stuff off the motor and found a few possible causes for the miss, lots of rotting old vacuum fittings, a cracked/broken connector on one of the coil packs, and the plastic intake tube the connects the mass air meter to the throttle body wasnt on right (bad rubber gasket that was half way out of place). Its a wonder the damn thing ran as good as it did.
Dirty and unloved, sad, because I always liked these cars. Bad trans, bad air ride, bad paint. Previous owner is a coworker, I helped him change the trans (he bought a used one) a few months ago, it lasted one week. I guess that was the last straw for him, he sold it to me for less than he paid for the used trans. :screwy:
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The mighty ( :sly:) 4 cam 4.6 Dammmnnn these things are HUGE !!! Should have it out and on a stand Sunday afternoon. Billy (ironman) is coming over to help, and I'm sure he'll tell me I'm crazy, again. ;D Very strange cooling system routing, cant even see where the lower radiator hose is going to yet (looks to be going somewhere down low on the drivers side of the engine, :sly:). This is definitely going to take some creative thinking. ;)
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Gee, if it works out well you may create a whole new market for boat engines ;)
I think the torque will be it's down fall. I hope not though, I'm rooting for you :beer:
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Hey Proppy that is exactly where the lower hose is. when you find the oil filter you have found the lower water hose, they share the same area on the "block" they should be on a removable cast piece.
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proppy,
Your whack!........ :screwy: :screwy:
It's hard enough to get the '70's chit to work..... O0
Good luck bro ;)
GT
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im so pumped about the 2 modern motor threads,
THIS IS TRUE HOT RODDING
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With help from Billy we got the "Baby Cammer" out of there. ;D And we pulled it out from the top without having to cut the car apart. Only had to resort to the sawzall for the exhaust ( it was easier than pulling the steering). Driver side exhaust manifold had the cat built into it and wrapped around the steering. Cooling system is definitely strange on these things. Like SuperJet posted, the lower hose goes into the driver side of the block near the front, looks like there is a passage that flows the water from there to the back of the water pump. It also had a strange remote thermostat housing with 4 hoses going to it, one from the lower radiator, one to the block, one from the crossover at the heads, and one to a remote chamber with the filler cap/radiator cap. I think this will work out nice, I can run water into the block on the side, remove and block off the water pump (thats going to take some work), then just make some dump fittings up at the front of the heads where the factory crossover tube was. Should end up looking good/uncluttered.
Of course once it was on a stand and the rest of the useless stuff was removed I had to set a blower on it just to see what it would look like. >:D Its is BIG !!! Thats my old 460 sitting next to it. :o The 460 is roughly 25" wide, this thing is 29", but the 460 is longer.
The "Baby Cammer"
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