SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: ka0tyk on June 07, 2011, 02:17:44 PM
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with the water going thru my manifolds, thru the block, out the top and into the water jacketed exhaust by the time it exits its hot, ive been about 130* last time i went out. plus hot exhaust it doesnt cool down my exhaust much and im getting some discoloration... and i burned the crap out of my arm last time i touched it.
would something like this work? everything is 10-.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brainbox.us%2Fmisc%2FIMG_20110424_124037-2.jpg&hash=13325dba3a58b6ed6aaf45bef6ba719d49952914)
i just dont want to create some bottleneck... so ill tee off the pump water before the gate and run the water full blast out the exhaust... this should help keep things nice and cool right? or should i run a separate water pickup in the transom or ride plate instead of stealing water from the pump?
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Negative Ghost Rider....it won't work well at all...
Reason; Water always takes the path of least resistance, so as the dynamics of flow change (from high volume to low) this thing will make you nuts.
It is my opinion that in this case the best fix is a thermostat kit...Not really to control the temperature of the engine (but cool bonus) but to increase the overall flow to the exhaust, like you are trying to do, but with some control as the water flows change.... :thumbup:
GT
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Negative Ghost Rider....it won't work well at all...
Reason; Water always takes the path of least resistance, so as the dynamics of flow change (from high volume to low) this thing will make you nuts.
It is my opinion that in this case the best fix is a thermostat kit...Not really to control the temperature of the engine (but cool bonus) but to increase the overall flow to the exhaust, like you are trying to do, but with some control as the water flows change.... :thumbup:
GT
thats kinda what i was worried about... high pressure on the cold line overpowering the exiting hot water from the engine, it takes priority and my hot water never exits the motor...
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Exactly what I was thinking, and all that cold water directly on the pipes? I dunno. I have a burn scar on my left arm from Pickle, with logs and OT pipes, Burned myself on headers before, but nothing like this one!
I just learned they plain get hot! Logs are cool, pipes are HOT! Check! :thumbup: Nature of the beast. But adding 65 degree water vs 130 degree water I don't think is gonna do much except potentially crack something. ;)
Trying to wrap my head around how a thermostat is going to cool the pipes more......not catching that one...... :sly:
Ray
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Exactly what I was thinking, and all that cold water directly on the pipes? I dunno. I have a burn scar on my left arm from Pickle, with logs and OT pipes, Burned myself on headers before, but nothing like this one!
I just learned they plain get hot! Logs are cool, pipes are HOT! Check! :thumbup: Nature of the beast. But adding 65 degree water vs 130 degree water I don't think is gonna do much except potentially crack something. ;)
Trying to wrap my head around how a thermostat is going to cool the pipes more......not catching that one...... :sly:
Ray
You're just going to have to trust me..... :sly: :sly: :sly:
;D
The way thermostat kits work is they bypass any water that is not being used to cool the engine to the stat temp, so that bypassed water will go through the exhaust as cooler water, at least until the engine gets hot...The plus is, you can run more water through the whole deal, many times I see the gate valve about 90% open......
You should be able to rest your hand on the double walled portion of that exhaust pipe off the manifold....(Do it all the time.)..They should never really exceed 150*F..
It will work, I would stake my reputation on it... 8)
GT
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I run my header water off my incoming water line, NOT after it's been through the block. So far (4yrs) no negative results, when I put my thru transoms on I'm gonna do the same, AND I'm gonna run the dump cool down fittings off the incoming. No pressure build up in the block, don't know if it keeps shit any colder or not, but it's exhaust, it's GONNA get hot.
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decided to go this route.
water comes in from pump, goes to a T:
#1 goes to gate valve, t's off to each side manifold, gets warmed up, goes into water inlet, goes thru block, comes out intake manifold hot, goes back to transom and dumps overboard.
#2 goes to t' and goes to exhaust riser, cold water + hot exhaust = slightly warm pipe, not HOT pipe.
now to take inventory of what i have and what i need...
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brainbox.us%2Fmisc%2FIMG_20110610_134204.jpg&hash=e895b96f747830aadec04a4b159aba39220c7a84)
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Lol....draw another picture and show what they would look like polished.
If you need the fittings, I can Bring them home for ya
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i need to pickup the following:
1 10- bulkhead tee on the run + nut
1 10- bulkhead straight + nut
1 10- 45* 1/2 NPT straight fitting
9 10- swivel hose end straight
1 10- tee
2 10- to 3/4" straight fitting
and a few feet of 10- hose. i think i have like 6' at home still. prolly need another 6'.
im getting rid of the chintzy copper tube pump water line and going thru the transom via bulkhead fittings.
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Just to throw my opinion at you....Unsolicited....I don't like it. :thumbdown:
Too many opportunities to screw something up...
Would rather see you add a t-stat kit and be done with it, it would be cheaper in the long run. Way less plumbing... :thumbup:
GT
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Just to throw my opinion at you....Unsolicited....I don't like it. :thumbdown:
Too many opportunities to screw something up...
Would rather see you add a t-stat kit and be done with it, it would be cheaper in the long run. Way less plumbing... :thumbup:
GT
we'll see... worst case i tear it all apart again. haha.
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Why the exit water to a dump? this is what I don't get. If you pump 130-140 degree water in there, or dump 60-65 degree water in there, not gonna make a helluva lot of difference.......I've been processing Glenns idea and more and more it makes some sense. Still gonna be hot as hell though!
Moos headers? Oh yeah! Them fuggers got HOT! The OT pipes on Pickle? Oh Yeah, found out, THEY GET HOT! I think Keith even warned me about that before I got burned by the mofos. The logs/snails that were on my Biesemeyer, yeah, they got pretty hot too........
As Skip said......it's 1400-2000 degree exhaust, its gonna get HOT! And you basically have OT pipes off logs, a little, well, more than a little fancier, but still, the physics apply.
Ray
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Why the exit water to a dump? this is what I don't get. If you pump 130-140 degree water in there, or dump 60-65 degree water in there, not gonna make a helluva lot of difference.......I've been processing Glenns idea and more and more it makes some sense. Still gonna be hot as hell though!
Moos headers? Oh yeah! Them fuggers got HOT! The OT pipes on Pickle? Oh Yeah, found out, THEY GET HOT! I think Keith even warned me about that before I got burned by the mofos. The logs/snails that were on my Biesemeyer, yeah, they got pretty hot too........
As Skip said......it's 1400-2000 degree exhaust, its gonna get HOT! And you basically have OT pipes off logs, a little, well, more than a little fancier, but still, the physics apply.
Ray
i was toying with the idea of welding a bung to the far end of the exhaust pipe near the transom to pipe the water to.
i think this and the thermostat do the same thing... oh well tomorrow morning im picking everything up.
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I think you'll be fine with that setup, but keep this in mind, your exhaust is going to be hot, there's no getting around it. ;-)
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You guys aren't getting that those header pipes he has are double jacketed, The ones on the old man's Crusader never get hot enough to burn a baby, maybe 120*....
The reason I don't like the drawing is because you have two completely different pressure drops there, Your engine will overheat like Hades at idle.... >:D
Just sayin'....How much water do you think a jet flows at idle?...Not much. Your set up should not work they way you drew it...
GT
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You guys aren't getting that those header pipes he has are double jacketed, The ones on the old man's Crusader never get hot enough to burn a baby, maybe 120*....
The reason I don't like the drawing is because you have two completely different pressure drops there, Your engine will overheat like Hades at idle.... >:D
Just sayin'....How much water do you think a jet flows at idle?...Not much. Your set up should not work they way you drew it...
GT
I don't think his pipes are jacketed at all............. :sly:
The center risers are, yes, ..........
Ray
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I don't think his pipes are jacketed at all............. :sly:
The center risers are, yes, ..........
Ray
That would be the part I am talking about, the riser section, not the lower pies he built, those will be much hotter, but still should be cool enough to not burn the rubber hoses... ;)
GT
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That would be the part I am talking about, the riser section, not the lower pies he built, those will be much hotter, but still should be cool enough to not burn the rubber hoses... ;)
GT
the jacketing stops at the first angle transition... you can clearly see the discoloration where the hot exhaust hits. the part i burnt my arm on was the riser itself...
i dont have any rubber hoses, its one solid piece out the back with a transom ring.
i dunno, i dont think im gonna know if its gonna work or not until i try it. worst case ill have plenty of fittings and hose to switch to a thermostat system.
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Cover some of your pipe in header wrap. It will look bitchn hotrod....
http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part-Type/Exhaust-Wrap/ (http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part-Type/Exhaust-Wrap/)
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Your system was designed to run with a dedicated raw water pump. Whether the jet does the same thing I don't know. Here is Eddie Marine's plumbing schematic, and like GT said it always has a thermostat.
[attach=1]
poverty
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Your system was designed to run with a dedicated raw water pump. Whether the jet does the same thing I don't know. Here is Eddie Marine's plumbing schematic, and like GT said it always has a thermostat.
(Attachment Link)
poverty
that schematic (on the lower EMI manifold side) has a pump feeding a crossover tube...
and then theres a bypass on the crossover tube that goes to the top of the thermostat that bypasses the engine altogether and goes to the manifold...
how is that any different than using cold water from my pump bypassing the cooling system, to a tee and then to the risers?
then a seperate system cooling the engine. instead of a thermostat, im using a gate valve to control flow for engine temp.
i do understand the "how much water do you think a jet pump pumps at idle" argument though. maybe ill have to step up to a water pump... do they make water pumps that will run off the rear? i dont really have room for a front mount if in fact the pump cant feed enough water.
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that schematic (on the lower EMI manifold side) has a pump feeding a crossover tube...
and then theres a bypass on the crossover tube that goes to the top of the thermostat that bypasses the engine altogether and goes to the manifold...
how is that any different than using cold water from my pump bypassing the cooling system, to a tee and then to the risers?
then a seperate system cooling the engine. instead of a thermostat, im using a gate valve to control flow for engine temp.
i do understand the "how much water do you think a jet pump pumps at idle" argument though. maybe ill have to step up to a water pump... do they make water pumps that will run off the rear? i dont really have room for a front mount if in fact the pump cant feed enough water.
Please understand that I am really trying hard to point you in the right direction without condescending.
The reason what you drew will not work is because there is not enough pressure differential in the exhaust system to leave enough water volume to adequately cool the engine, your engine will over heat while running slower due to the lack of volume from the jet pump.
You do not need a raw water pump. Although an automotive type block pump would help, it is not needed...
Order up a #1800 Glenwood t-stat kit and you will be done.....You wont need a dump line, a pressure regulator, extra fittings ...Nada..
Trust me on this, You will not be able to invent a better wheel. ;)
I am really not sure why your fighting this one so hard. This will work so bitchen it is almost silly... :screwy:
edit; I should add, I am doing a small block like this right now....Pics to follow.... 8)
GT
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I don't know if the volume of water from the jet matches that of the raw water pump. But in theory, I think your diagram may keep the riser cooler, but the pipe downstream from there will heat up pretty good and vaporize a lot of the water. At the end of the day the stainless pipes are probably going to be as hot as OT headers, and as long as they can't melt or ignite anything...
DON'T TOUCH THEM!!
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I run the manifolds on a seperate line and dump the water overboard, this keeps them cool. Also if there are engine overheat problems it dosn't effect the manifolds.
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Just to show you how simple this could be....
(http://[attach=1])
GT
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I run the manifolds on a seperate line and dump the water overboard, this keeps them cool. Also if there are engine overheat problems it dosn't effect the manifolds.
Sounds like a plan. Picked em up already. Tomorrow I'm grabbin some hose and it gets done.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brainbox.us%2Fmisc%2Frps20110611_102940.jpg&hash=3a038c8accc544e6cea7cb65c045014396094d45)
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Are your water-jacketed pipes restricted where they dump into the single wall pipe? If so, is/are the water outlet(s) near the top, where the inner pipe ends, and where the exhaust dumps into the single wall pipe? It sounds like your water-jacketed pipes aren't "filling up" to the top of the pipe, and they're hot on the top (and maybe the sides too). Matt
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Are your water-jacketed pipes restricted where they dump into the single wall pipe? If so, is/are the water outlet(s) near the top, where the inner pipe ends, and where the exhaust dumps into the single wall pipe? It sounds like your water-jacketed pipes aren't "filling up" to the top of the pipe, and they're hot on the top (and maybe the sides too). Matt
you know i bet you just solved my mystery. i bet when the dude who welded em up chopped em off, he left them open when they were originally sealed except for a few spots... so the water isnt getting to those areas at all and just going around the bottom...
damnit im gonna have to chop em up and get em re-welded to restrict the exiting water flow.
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Suggestion: Before you hack them up, take one of them off the boat and hook it up to a garden hose. I think you should be able to tell how the water is exiting between the two pipes by how it "shoots" or "gurgles" out the end. Might even be able to tell what side(s) it's coming out. I wouldn't over-do it with the pressure though. And that's something you'll have to be careful with if you do restrict them. You don't want to over-pressurize your manifolds. Matt
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Suggestion: Before you hack them up, take one of them off the boat and hook it up to a garden hose. I think you should be able to tell how the water is exiting between the two pipes by how it "shoots" or "gurgles" out the end. Might even be able to tell what side(s) it's coming out. I wouldn't over-do it with the pressure though. And that's something you'll have to be careful with if you do restrict them. You don't want to over-pressurize your manifolds. Matt
i remember the exit holes and the guy at archer marine suggesting to grind em smooth to help with reversion if i had a big cam. i remember there was one small hole on the bottom, 2 medium on the sides and one large one at the top... i think when my buddy did these he chopped that section out so they're wide open.
ill take em and chop em at that first angle, weld around and leave a spot at the bottom, and the top.
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Why is it that some exhaysts sytems use water dumps? My bbc currently has snail and logs and no water dump. I can usually touch the exhaust w/o getting burned. My friend has a bbc in his hallett w/ wather injected Rewarders that use a water dump. I asked him why the water dump was there and he said he didn't know as he bought the boat like that.
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Why is it that some exhaysts sytems use water dumps? My bbc currently has snail and logs and no water dump. I can usually touch the exhaust w/o getting burned. My friend has a bbc in his hallett w/ wather injected Rewarders that use a water dump. I asked him why the water dump was there and he said he didn't know as he bought the boat like that.
im guessing the water dump is required for motors with water injected headers because you're not dumping your exiting water into the header, you're just spraying a small amount at a certain RPM into it to cool em... the rest of the water has to go somewhere... overboard.
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I think it simply because the exhaust tubing isn't water jacketed. Water flowing through that huge 4" tubing with the exhaust isn't going to do anything. Its like a water slide at the water park. It will just run down the bottom of the pipe. Just my .02
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So what was the final outcome of your little project. Did you go by your diagram or did you end up installing a tstat? Inquiring minds wanna know :)
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So what was the final outcome of your little project. Did you go by your diagram or did you end up installing a tstat? Inquiring minds wanna know :)
Going to do the hot water dump and cold water to risers route... but also have to take risers and pipes to be cut and rewelded to create the chamber that was accidently chopped off the first time.
I usually move quick but my gma died yesterday and I've been focusing my time with my family lately. Sorrry!
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Sorry for your loss brother. My thoughts are with you and the family.
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Going to do the hot water dump and cold water to risers route... but also have to take risers and pipes to be cut and rewelded to create the chamber that was accidently chopped off the first time.
I usually move quick but my gma died yesterday and I've been focusing my time with my family lately. Sorrry!
Very sorry to hear about your loss. :(
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thanks for the thoughts. its been a long time coming... alzhiemers is a horrible horrible disease.
at any rate ill also be tapping my pump to a 1/2" AN/NPT fitting up from the measly 3/8"...
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If the engine is runing lean and the timing is high all the water will not cool them down. Richen the jets and retard the timing a tad.
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Cover the area with header wrap and call it a day....
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get a pressure regulator WATTS plumbing makes one part number X65B. you can set it at 20psi.
Use it instead of a gate valve. I have one on my boat with water jacketed lighting headers and they stay nice and cool.
Plus you wont have to worry about too much water pressure entering the engine block.
Best ninety dollars ever spent.
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Dunzo,
Thanks for using an actual regulator and not that POS relief crap.
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get a pressure regulator WATTS plumbing makes one part number X65B. you can set it at 20psi.
Use it instead of a gate valve. I have one on my boat with water jacketed lighting headers and they stay nice and cool.
Plus you wont have to worry about too much water pressure entering the engine block.
Best ninety dollars ever spent.
Maybe you can post a pic of that regulator installed.....?
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Maybe you can post a pic of that regulator installed.....?
Here is the one I would install, it's got a built in Y strainer which you can take apart and clean, this will make your regulator live a long happy life. You can also order it in a variety of pressure ranges, as low as 10 PSI
http://www.zurn.com/operations/wilkins/pdfs/specsheets/REG-500YSBR.pdf (http://www.zurn.com/operations/wilkins/pdfs/specsheets/REG-500YSBR.pdf)
Here is what ^^^ installed
http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=6690 (http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=6690)
Here is what you DON'T want to install
http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=803 (http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=803)
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im kinda leaning towards keeping the gate valve. reason being that i just tapped (thanks pat!) the pump with a larger fitting, and running that to a T. one side is going to go straight to the risers, supplying cold water directly to the exhaust. the other side is going to the gate valve and to the engine. ill use the gate to regulate engine temp, and the rest of the water is gonna take the easy route to the exhaust. i think its a win/win situation.
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im kinda leaning towards keeping the gate valve. reason being that i just tapped (thanks pat!) the pump with a larger fitting, and running that to a T. one side is going to go straight to the risers, supplying cold water directly to the exhaust. the other side is going to the gate valve and to the engine. ill use the gate to regulate engine temp, and the rest of the water is gonna take the easy route to the exhaust. i think its a win/win situation.
Sounds like that would work great to me
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Hey Luckie - do you know if either of the regulators you show allow drain-back through the regulator? Or do they essentially check the backflow? Thanks.
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No, they allow drainback once the incoming water pressure is off.
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all the boat buisness aside im sorry to hear about your loss! boat buisness aside it sounds like you have a handle on things! :thumbup: