SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: 455olds on August 03, 2010, 09:21:25 AM
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I need to determine the best course of action to protect my interests.
Short story:
I have a jet boat with a 455 oldsmobile with a high rise and twin Holley 600's. It had been in storage for a season without use. After pulling it out this spring, I decided that it was finally time to have the carbs gone through and tuned, since they'd leaked a little gas for a very long time, and now the seals and what-not had likely dried out substantially from sitting....
I changed the oil and filter, filled the gas tank with fresh gas, and brought it to a shop for a complete "rebuild, clean-up, tuning, and synchronization."
Picked it up yesterday.
First time out, it idles very poorly... rough as hell to be precise. Could barely keep it running through the no wake zone after leaving the dock... black smoke emminating from the exhaust. Once out of the no wake zone, I had to stumble across a flat spot in the throttle to get the RPM's up... got to decent speed, but was missing pretty badly and even a backfire or two along the way.
Pulled her immediately back to the dock and trailered it.
Called the shop and plan to bring it back in this evening... but the kicker is, after I talked to them, I checked the oil (not sure what made me curious) and saw that it had actually increased in volume. Pulled the plug for the drain tube and it "flowed" out... not a trickle like a thick high viscosity oil, but like it was water... except no bubbles like water in the oil... and it smelled highly of gasoline.
Should I take it to the same shop and explain what happend? Hoping they'll fix it and I'll be all good? Or did this potentially cause much larger problems, that I should have another shop look at, in-case I'm now looking at a new block that I might go back on the original shop to replace? I worry that the original shop will down-play the mistake, change the oil and make a few adjustments, hoping to send me on the way before a bearing failure....
I need to determine the best course of action to protect my interests.
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Id call the shop back and explain what going on...most likely they'd go over the boat again and take care of it. If its a reputable shop they don't want bad word to mouth advertising. Before you take it do yourself a favor and check your spark plug wires make sure they are all plugged in and for shitts and giggles check your firing order.
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sounds like maybe power valves might be blown unless you have plugs in the meter blocks thats my guess good luck. as generallee said take it back to the shop. this is getting to be a big forum. that shop does not need the word of mouth on here.
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It doesn't sound like you ran it long enough to cause any major damage. I would suggest taking it back to the guys that did the work and explain all of what you found. Ask them to change the oil and either return the old filter to you or cut it open and show you what was inside.
Hope all turns out for the best.
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Update:
I called the shop and explained what I found with the oil... they said to bring it in and they'd change it (for a fee) before reviewing the carbs... So I bought new oil and a filter and am doing it myself first.
Found a few things:
1. The oil flowed out of the drain hose (that comes from the bottom of the pan and is long enough to run out the drain plug) like it never has before... generally I have to use a drill pump to suck it out, and then only get about 4 of the 5 quarts out (with filter change)...but this time it flowed like water, and I got close to five quarts out. I ran a few more quarts through the engine just to (hopefully) clean it out a bit better. Smelled like gas something fierce...
2. I have oil on the underside of the exhaust and the side of the block near the back right corner of the engine... cylinder #4... the only time I've ever seen that was back in 2003 when I spun a main bearing.
I'm going cut the filter open now to see what I find...
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Overall, the filter was clean. I found one shaving that makes me a little nervous, but other than that it was clean. Nothing like the last bearing failure I saw... that filter was a mess.
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Sounds like a ton of fuel may have leaked from your carbs into your cilinders and may have seeped through your rings into the pan. hydrolicing i think is the term. When I was having ingnition problems with my efi. my injectors were spraying but no spark. After I got it running I changed the oil and it reeked like race fuel. could be a similur issue. Did you turn it over alot b4 it fired. was it hard to turn over at first. any flames aout the exhuast?
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Couldve been very rich and washed out the rings not good check compression id bet they didnt set a float right and it was pukin from the over flow that then ate the rings so now the fuel is going straight to the pan
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Couldve been very rich and washed out the rings not good check compression id bet they didnt set a float right and it was pukin from the over flow that then ate the rings so now the fuel is going straight to the pan
Lets hope not :banghead:
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Ya ive seen it happen tho
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The term is white washed the cyclinders and your scareing this poor guy change the oil a couple of times do a compression test or even better a leak down test will tell what percentage is leaking past the rings ,with out pulling the pan no way to know what condition the bearings are in , get the carbs done correctly and see what happens . Oh document everything along the way so you have a leg to stand on GOOD LUCK :thumbup:
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me and a friend rebuilt his carb on his daycruzer had all the some semtoms we found that we had put the wrong gasket in the base because the right one didnt fit right that wrong gasket let the fuel bowls emty into the motor after it was off and while running it bypassed and flooded it made it run like shit
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Changed the oil and dropped it off tonight... after draining it, I ran another 4 quarts through it, one at a time until the last one seemed to come out clean oil... dropped the filter and swapped it out, then filled her back up. Just wishing I'd have thought to check the compression, or got these posts before I dropped it off... can't verify that now...
I can say that it ran perfectly before it was parked.... but how many of these issues could be attributed to sitting idle for a year and a half? Some maybe, but I feel as though I did right by changing the oil, new fuel, and bringing it in for a carb job... just wish I'd have chosen a better shop right now.
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Did you turn it over alot b4 it fired. was it hard to turn over at first. any flames aout the exhuast?
Fired perfectly the first start... after that, it dies twice because the idle was off so badly. Each time it took longer to start. Rather long crank, but not crazy long.
No flames, but she did backfire a couple times... mild at best, not big ones.
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Also, I saved a few "clean" samples of the oil to send in for analysis... I was thinking Blackstone from what I've found on the net, but can anyone recommend a lab?
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I don't know that I'd bother with the analysis just yet. If it looks like gas, smells like gas........I'm guessing probably gas..........but I'd make sure the shop knows you HAVE the samples anyway. Keep em sealed and dated JIC tho. >:D
Ray
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ya wait on the lab stuff see what they tell u what shop was it anyway if they try to do u wRong threatin them with the ase and see what they say then
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what kind of fuel filter do you have. paper,brass ect.
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Oil analysis' give the best results when done over the life of an engine. Just one sample might indicate foreign material but not give much useful information.
Good luck
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totally sounds like base to body gasket just letting fuel flood in every time it dies ive seen it before i had a demon do it and a holly they were both the same dang thing drove me nuts till i found what was up :banghead:
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Sounds like needle and seat might be plugged in one of the carbs allowing fuel to flood engine.
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Also seems like the accelerator pumps with the dead spot. I rebuilt mine myself. Never had experience rebuilding carbs, i learned a lot. I would try tackling it myself next time.
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I would try tackling it myself next time.
I would too, since I'm out 700 bones and my boat is nowhere to be seen... I knew I was going to pay through the nose to have it done elsewhere, but figured if I rebuilt them myself and took it for tuning I'd have paid dearly, and probably faced the argument that it was done incorrectly if they couldn't get it right... now I sit wondering why I just didn't try.
They've now had it for 2 days without calling me with an update... how long is too long before I need to just pop in and check on progress? If it were me I think I'd be calling the guy back with an update on his boat, but I guess they feel differently.
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Well having twin 600's more than doubles the pita of tuning. I asume this is a pure drag boat ?
I'd go in tomorrow if you could just to see whats up.
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Stopped by this morning. The shop had the scoop off the carbs and had obviously been doing some tinkering. Talked to the guy and he explained that he had it running yesterday and was trying to adjust the carbs while on the boat, but wasn't having any luck getting it to both idle and run. Sounded like either/or were doable, but he couldn't get it dialed in where it just wasn't dumping gas down the cylinders.... he was going to search the internet for info and better settings...
While I have yet to identify the shop here, or bad mouth them publicly, because I feel like the guy's been trying to be nice and still has the opportunity to make this right, I feel like they're learning how to tune dual Holley's on my boat, which is an entirely different story than they talked before I brought it in. I've been very patient, and am trying to remain confident that they can figure it out, but they've had the boat almost three weeks now, and it's still apart on their shop floor. They said the plugs were bad and had to change them... though I'll bet they had less than 20 hours on 'em before I brought it in. They also said it's not firing well on all cylinders now, like an ignition problem, which ran flawlessly before she was parked a couple seasons back... I'd be willing to bet that the poor firing is due to the fact that the air/fuel mixture is way off, or there's just too damn much gas being dumped down the shoot...
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Could be the wrong gasket set on the rebuilt carbs. When I rebuilt mine the shop gave me the wrong gasket set and my carb just kept dumping fuel and drowning my engine.
Id take it to another shop at this point. I mean 3 weeks and they still haven't figured it out. That's pathetic. Ask them for some of your hard earned and poorly spent money back and take it to another shop. If they don't want to refund some of that money take them to small claims.
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UPDATE:
2 months into this thing.
I finally got a call the week before last that basically said, "I'm clueless, I can't figure it out" so they sent the boat down to another shop a few hours away.
Left me a VM yesterday that it was up and running and to come pick it up.
I called him back today and he said it's good to go and that I should stop by tomorrow when he's there to get it and to settle up. I asked him what "settle up" meant, since I already paid for a carb rebuild and tuning, and that he was merely finishing the job... slowly at that. He said that he was being as nice as he could, and that he knocked a ton of hours off it, but it cost him another tank of gas and 3 oil changes, and a lot of hours. I explained that the tank was full when he got it, which should have been about 3/4 of a tank more than any other mechanic would have needed to rebuild and tune a couple carbs, and that the oil also was fresh... and then re-freshed after his first gas overload. He said that it was an incorrect gasket that kept causing it to run into the oil, and that he had to keep changing it. Apparently, the fact that HE put that wrong gasket in, and the fact that HE used all the gas didn't mean anything.... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Am I way off base in thinking that not only should I not owe one more dime, but I should be getting something back for not having my boat for the last two months... especially after I was quoted $500 and "about a week" and am now up 2 months and about $730 the first time plus another request for $350 more... what a joke.
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He did a half ass job the first time, finaly figures out what he screwed up on and wants you to pay for all the diagnose time and pay him for all the fuel he burned while trying to figure it out?
Tell him to pound sand!
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i would say ok... hook the boat up before you pay him, say ur goin to get ur wallet, and take off.... thats bs... i would be furious... he needs to kick rocks...
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give him a bill for your gas from the boat and truck also for the oil tell him you will nock off the price of the filter just to be nice. i supose this guy charges for his dumass i wouldnt pay him at all
rusty
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i would say ok... hook the boat up before you pay him, say ur goin to get ur wallet, and take off.... thats bs... i would be furious... he needs to kick rocks...
I will disagree with this right here...his would be asking for a confrontation and people do weird shit when confronted...
Show up with a Sheriff or local PD, this is your personal property and unless there is a signed document stating you agree to his "terms" he's on his own...
Is this a shop? Pretty unprofessional IMHO... :screwy:
You don't want this to get "legal" it will just end up getting ugly... :thumbdown:
I am hoping Tom @ JBP chimes in. I am sure he has dealings in this area.
GT
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As you stated black smoke is fuel sounds like the floats are high and flooding the plenum
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Is this a shop? Pretty unprofessional IMHO... :screwy:
Yes.... It's a shop based out of one of the marinas on the river.
Is it safe to assume that these places are under the same "written estimate" rules that any auto shop is? And, is it safe to assume that if my original receipt stated carb rebuild and tune (that I paid for already when I first picked the boat up, but than had to bring the boat back because it wouldn't run) would reasonably cover any additional time and expenses to complete the otherwise incorrect tuning? In my opinion, there was zero reason for me to assume that I was incurring any additional costs... he was simply completing his end of the deal... not doing anything extra....
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All I can say is pay with plastic and dispute it with the CC company. They will be on your side as long as you give them all the documentation, even who and when you talked to someone.
T.J.
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Yes.... It's a shop based out of one of the marinas on the river.
Is it safe to assume that these places are under the same "written estimate" rules that any auto shop is? And, is it safe to assume that if my original receipt stated carb rebuild and tune (that I paid for already when I first picked the boat up, but than had to bring the boat back because it wouldn't run) would reasonably cover any additional time and expenses to complete the otherwise incorrect tuning? In my opinion, there was zero reason for me to assume that I was incurring any additional costs... he was simply completing his end of the deal... not doing anything extra....
Laws are different from state to state, but here, unless they have a work order stating a written estimate or have a signed work order and verbal authorization to proceed they cannot expect to be paid for work they already charged you for in the beginning, this would fall under a "warranty" scenario.
The CC company will definitely be your friend, but be careful, by paying them anything at all, your kind of opening a door you can't close (a little like admitting you owed them something in the first place)...
Good luck!
GT
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Not to sound crass but this is one of the main reasons I fix my own stuff. If I do not know how I do research (books, not really internet) and go ahead with it.
T.J.
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IT would probably be a good I dea to let us know who you are dealing with so we can make our own choice as to whether or not to avoid this character.
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Personally if you cant set down and rationally work out a resolution with the shop owner I would simply pay the bill and documemt on the Check or credit card or with a witness that the payment is paid under protest/dispute then i would take all the paperwork and documented conversations and create an outline timeline ,removing emotion and un-neccesary infomation (just the facts) and when "cooler heads prevail" at a time when you can carefully sort all of this out and revisit the whole thing with the shop at a later date (typically you have 2 years on a business deal) .Not sure about your state but in Cali the marine shops are largley unregulated do not come under BAR (auto repair) jurisdiction even an Auto shop that works on boats ,they do for example fall under Business & Proffesion and other civil codes , and some municipal regulations. Granted its your property but if one simply hooks up and takes it away you might be the one with legal problems particularly if any of the work was authorized at all (verbal or written) If you leave it or refuse to pay they may have certain remedies available to them respective to your boat and trailer titles I know this is probably not what you want to hear but IMO is the proffesional way to approach it . Above my current business I have 30 plus years dealing with business situations similar to this on occasion and belive theres likley an amicable resolution here for you as well as maybe the shop . Happy to help if I can don't hesitate to call Tom
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Jet Boat Performance is 100% right, and another thiing if you fix your own stuff then you dont get as mad if it gets screwed up rather than if someone else screws it up. Good Luck! :thumbup:
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Personally if you cant set down and rationally work out a resolution with the shop owner I would simply pay the bill and documemt on the Check or credit card or with a witness that the payment is paid under protest/dispute then i would take all the paperwork and documented conversations and create an outline timeline ,removing emotion and un-neccesary infomation (just the facts) and when "cooler heads prevail" at a time when you can carefully sort all of this out and revisit the whole thing with the shop at a later date (typically you have 2 years on a business deal) .Not sure about your state but in Cali the marine shops are largley unregulated do not come under BAR (auto repair) jurisdiction even an Auto shop that works on boats ,they do for example fall under Business & Proffesion and other civil codes , and some municipal regulations. Granted its your property but if one simply hooks up and takes it away you might be the one with legal problems particularly if any of the work was authorized at all (verbal or written) If you leave it or refuse to pay they may have certain remedies available to them respective to your boat and trailer titles I know this is probably not what you want to hear but IMO is the proffesional way to approach it . Above my current business I have 30 plus years dealing with business situations similar to this on occasion and belive theres likley an amicable resolution here for you as well as maybe the shop . Happy to help if I can don't hesitate to call Tom
I appreciate your honest, cool-headed input, Tom.
You'd be pleased to know that the pump, droop snoot, and (if I recall correctly) the jet-ovater on my boat all came from you and your shop. You even through in some free tech support over the phone one evening when I couldn't seem to fit the new pump through the existing transom mounting plate. If only your shop had been a few thousand miles closer when it came time for the carb work...
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Jet Boat Performance is 100% right, and another thiing if you fix your own stuff then you dont get as mad if it gets screwed up rather than if someone else screws it up. Good Luck! :thumbup:
I agree.
Prior to this instance, I had never once had my boat in a shop... I once shipped the block off to be rebuilt, but I removed it, stripped it, and shipped it. Then performed all the re-install myself. Have also swapped out the pump, the headers (numerous times), and countless other details...
But.... for whatever reason, the carbs scared me. Not to rebuild them, but to synch them. Partially because I heard countless horror stories, and numerous people told me that if I rebuilt them, and then brought them in to tune and/or synch, that I'd pay the same in the end anyway... Shouldn't have been swayed I guess.... :mad:
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455 olds, I remember this and your buying the pieces and parts ;) ! FWIW on your repair woes , "been there and done that" when I was 16 I had my first car ( 54 Merc) ,had a huge oil leak my ole man bitched about the "slick" it left at the house so I took my $150 car to a shop and spent a hundy to "fix" it (hard earned when min wage was $1.35 an hour) when I got home it leaked worse the shop basiclly told me tough sh*t That was 1968 and beyond tires and some new high tech stuff I seldom ever have anyone touch my vehicles since (I've owned hundreds) I've been blessed with mechanical skills but recognize that not everyone is or has the time to do thier own work , Very little "voodoo" on these boats" we all have , anytime anyone has problems or needs help were there to try to help never hesitate to call if you want to tackle any thing Tom
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If the shop owner can't list one issue with anything but your carbs that he fixed then I can't see one reason for you to pay more money. I agree with you that the plugs were bad due to gas fouling.
Like you said, you paid for a carb rebuild and tune. That's what he was supposed to provide
for the money you already paid.
Get him to say he did the job incorrectly and he just made it right and you can smile and say
"now what do I owe you"?
I agree, he owes you lost time in your boat. He won't see that anymore than you don't see you owe
him for faulty workmanship.
That should be a break even at that point.
Good luck.